How can we change our view in society

[LilSissyStevie]

Wow... Seriously?

I guess sarcasm doesn't always translate well in print.

[Mia Brankovic]

Gillian...very nicely put...I liked Ghandi...the mainstream societal psyche is rather fragile (the speed of progress, for one)...any one of you have asked deep feeling, inner questions about who/what you are...and you have come to 'understand' about yourselves...mainstream does not ask many inner questions...it's too difficult...too much work...it would be improper to hold anger against those less 'enlightened'. Is deep-inner perspective a mainstream activity? I'm going with "No".

and Jennie...you're talking self-promotion...

Melaine: Those that claim the moral high ground and cast out judgement are losing the battle...thank the LGBT community for that one...they stomped 'em...In Canada, and the USA...society has been 'tazered'...I'm thinking culture shock...the religious foundations are started to crack (metaphorically). Within 15 years the Catholic Church will be down to 30% of the global population (that close to extinction, BTW)...cracks are forming...but let's handle these folk with care...I think the majority are traumatized.


"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world."
Nelson Mandela

[Marcelle]

Hi Carly,

Many have said it correctly that people don't get us because it is seen as an aberration of sorts and this married with all the classic stereotypes associated with CDing does not help toward acceptance. Will we ever be truly accepted? I like to be a bit optimistic and think some day the human species will evolve and get over itself and just accept people for who they are. However I am a pragmatist and realize for now "tolerance" is the best we can hope for. I don't hide the fact I am TG from my family, friends and work colleagues and while this generates a whole host of questions from them (even when I am not dressed), I take this as an opportunity to educate them and let them see I am as normal as anyone else on this planet, I just choose to express a side of me which needs to be expressed for the well being of my own emotional stability.

However you question has me wondering . . . What would happen if you went to a Steampunk event "en femme" or dressed as Lady Carly vice Sir XXXX at a Renaissance event? Would the CDing be overlooked in light of the venue?

Hugs

Isha

[Ressie]

The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. Even if there were never any media depicting CDs and TSs it would still be considered weird by most people. Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women? There will always be fetish CDs and drag queens. Some just love to shock people too.

The best we can do is be ourselves and not be phony about presenting.

[Marcelle]

Hi Ressie,

I am one of those who do not pass but I like to think I look a bit better than "an idiot wearing a dress" . I cannot accept that in order for us to gain more social acceptance that we should stop going out unless we pass. None of us pass (clear and simple) as we all have little tells which proclaim us as "guy, dude, bloke, man, bro". However, that should not stop people from going out and educating the masses. I would like to point out that in the early part of the 20th century women in pants was seen as "silly" but they kept pushing the point until now it is commonplace. If we (CDers) don't make an effort (even if it is just from the sidelines providing support) the one truth is . . . nothing will change.

Hugs

Isha

[Paula DAngelo]

You change the world one person at a time. It is by showing love, compassion and caring that people will see that Cd'ers are just people with quirks, and we all have quirks. Love those who abuse you, speak well of them and show kindness even though they are being unkind, then you will be showing yourself to be the bigger person, regardless of your fashion statement.

I think this is a big part of how we can do something to improve how we are viewed, the more we show we are just people like everyone else the better we will be viewed.

Someone above said "One thing is for sure. Parents do not want crossdressers near their children!". Not only is this not true, but this is exactly the type of thinking we need to be addressing. As an example, I'm a skater and I try to skate weekly as long as my schedule permits. This past weekend a mother was there with her son (who appeared to be about 6). He was having a rough time and not having much fun. I went over talked to the mother to see if she would like some help with her son. She didn't bat an eye and was happy for the help. After about 5 minutes her son was doing much better and was now enjoying himself. Through the rest of the session I checked back to see how he was doing and he appeared to be having fun. Nowhere during this whole time was there any sign that either of them were concerned about me or about my appearance. So by investing 5 minutes of my time I may have painted "one of us" in a positive light". Maybe the mother didn't know I was transsexual, or maybe she didn't care. Either way it doesn't matter, if she didn't know then good for me, if she didn't care then good for us since it shows that people are starting to be accepting of us. Overall I tend to believe that most people just aren't concerned, as I know when I'm skating I definitely draw attention to myself due to the way I skate and I have only had positive comments made to me and never have been treated in a negative manner.

[NicoleScott]

Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women?

Counter-productive to acceptance. If only passable CDers were "allowed" in public, there would be no way for the public to see that men in dresses aren't a threat. They would see only men or women.
Some women dress and make up in ways that draw criticism here when CDers do the same. While you're banning some CDers from going out in public, be sure to ban those women, too.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Steam punk yes we have a few here that are into that . and a few other groups

I dress in Edwardian i dont see any men in our clothes, they dress in mens wear and look pretty good as well. allthough it was noted at another meeting place and i was asked do i like dressing in womens clothes , because all of those from our group were women ,

i said no im just a tad different , as the guy looked at me and wondered i told him i was a female , then it dawned on him,,,, oh your a female .....

At our Renaissance camps similar 3 years ago wow your taking on the personer of a woman and dressing in garb, that takes courage to do till they worked out i am a female oh dear .

those of you who blend in or look like a woman can do it youd never be asked . , i cant oh well thats life ,

yet what i have done is open up to society and our communitys is we can be accepted .

Its not how we look or ( dont ) in my case , its about our personality who we are , and becoming part of society and our many different groups as a member of over 7 groups, soc and community based banded to gether, groups for different meetings , do,s or what ever . and your asked to join in and become part of year after year does that not prove we can be included.

Come on look at it from where i stand . i.v stood before many 10.s of 1000.s of people talked to many 100,s more and in the public domain seen and known .

And would any of this have happened had i looked like a ...normal...looking female, no of cause not , get real , none of this would have happened ,

Before you start the fire are you ready to get burnt ,i was and my life was on the line what for to be in the lime light if you knew me before , no way ever just ...NO WAY EVER....

Iv done it with help from people i never knew yet they were there for me . hey theres been a price to pay , i.v paid it ,and i live with it so as i said about the fire are you ready to be burnt . dont embark on something you wont see through i,v done my 7 years and still doing and now im able to partake of the fruit of what we have done , and those who helped me .

I,v meet with society and have their blessing and paved a way for others to come along next to me if they wish to, and then they too can be blessed like i have been .

I hear the talk and not a lot happens if any thing , yet im intergrated into society and our groups ,

So that being the case i must be so weird people just give up on me and say just join the group and sit tight, nope get your self known and join in and youll become as i have a member of the groups
.

...noeleena...

[KittyD]

I was just thinking this the other day...! I film such events as cosplay and I see man as women and women as men all the time and its the norm.
To me there isn't a whole lot of difference

[Ressie]

Nicole, I didn't say CDing in public should be banned. I just think there are many that think that they're more passable than they truly are to the general public. Everyone has the choice to go out, but some aren't making a wise choice. I've never laughed at any transgender person, but I've been shocked by a few. I've heard people tell stories of CDs they've seen and everyone laughs execpt me. So it isn't just the media that's perpetuating this stigma IMO.

[NicoleScott]

Ressie, I know you didn't say some CDers should be banned. I was trying to make the point that if passable-only CDers went out, CDers would never be seen in public, and that doesn't help the cause of public acceptance.
Some years ago, there were some posts from members attempting to shame people out of their closet, "for the good of the community". At the same time, some other posts attempted to drive some CDers back into the closet because their presentation was too outlandish for the good of the community. Huh?

[Jaylyn]

I personally don't dress to impress any one but myself. I would not go out in public unless I knew it would be only a CD event where no one would recognize me or at a club where only CDs are at in a far away place. I know my appearance would never pass. However I still enjoy the act of dressing as the opposite sex. Now with that said in my humble opinion the opposite sex dresses like their opposite sex and no one says anything. I feel that if clothing companies would start a gradual move to make clothes unisex that we CD would all be looked at as folks that are in style. I've seen some shirts and blouses that have very little differences. When it becomes the cool thing that the men's wear and women's wear are close then it would slide into each other and every one would be wearing practically the same type clothing. If your a believer the very first clothing I guess was unisex and maybe made of leaves for the male and the female.... So why not now have the materials and designs merge over a slow ten years. Just a thought. My hunting undergarments are made of nylon and are based on a layering system. They are made of some of the same materials as my wife's leggings. If hers were Camo then we'd look alike. I've seen some men's under wear that are made of the same type material as my wife's panties. There are some socks already out there that resemble hose. I believe many of our early ancestors used to wear frilly tops. Men and women made from silk. Would we still be viewed by the same standards today if that were the case. We definitely would be wearing a smoother type material. Scotch men are not viewed as different when they wear their kilts. Who are the fashion police that says we can't wear what we want. I love minis and garters red nail polish and red lipsticks are my fetish so I wear my mini with my tallest heels and play dress up. I won't go out but that's my decision. I know I won't pass and would look a sight and just don't want to deal with all the stares or talk especially in our small town. From reading the text on all these posts I believe it should be up to the person what they want to wear out in public. They should also remember it's up to them to be able to handle the critiques and comments they might get.

[PaulaQ]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

That's simple. Come out. Be yourselves. Let people publically know that this is part of who you are. You are male, heterosexual cross dressers. Join together, demonstrate that you are otherwise normal men, that you vote, hold jobs, pay taxes, and have normal relationships.

While you are in the closet, you are easy to marginalize and ridicule. You are going to have to stand up for yourselves. No is going to do this for you.

I didn't say this was going to be easy.

[Lorileah]

Glad I pass

When things like this come up I just change a few words in my mind and it shows just how discriminatory a post or thread can be. Try it

[LelaK]

The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. Even if there were never any media depicting CDs and TSs it would still be considered weird by most people. Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women?

I don't plan to be dressed in public except in safe places, but I applaud anyone who doesn't "pass" but presents themselves publicly anyway. I certainly don't pass as yet, but I want to see how close I can come to passing by trying makeup and a good wig, to go along with the clothes I have. But, even if I can pass barely, I don't plan to adopt feminine mannerisms. Women don't all have such mannerisms either. I prefer neutral mannerisms myself.

[Lily Catherine]

I'd like to point out that humiliation by drag is also another part of the stigma (forced feminization as a fetish, for that matter). While I opt not to deny the trope or suppress it, there's still an implicit mindset beneath - MtF crossdressing is effectively reduced to submissive position in the public mind.

Here in Singapore, there are estates/towns particularly frequented by crossdressers; that might look like a good thing. That said, these circles also tend to be associated with prostitution as well, reinforcing the notion among the older crowd that most crossdressers are, well, involved in the trade and are beholden to its stigma - also creating a notion that crossdressing is entirely sexual (not saying it's nonsexual either.).

The 'It's a trap!' meme that was floating around the Web since I was in junior high doesn't help matters either. While feminine beauty is a common thread among some of us, it is as well to the proclaimers of this meme. This oil slick of thought also spreads to the much earlier "tits or get out" catchphrase - typical guys do not seem to want their sexual or romantic thoughts and attractions to be cheated.

I beg your pardon for the seemingly disjointed nature of this post though. There are many corollaries to any reason for the stigma and how we can be further accepted. It will take time, and even now I can safely say I cannot point to a root cause or root solution yet.

[Rachelakld]

CD & TS have been fringe elements of society, just like Gays were in the 60's & 70's.
In the media in the 90's & 2000 here, they were known to be prostituting and causing unsocial problems (P & S on the pavement, running around in see through nighties at 10 pm etc).
It changed a lot for us, when a TG did very well in politics.
It changed for us when an idiot picked on someone dressed and ended up wearing a very hard punch, while being recorded and featured on the national news TV, so they are more hesitant to try causing trouble.

But really, to change society, we have to be out, we have to be polite, and we have to let them get used to us. -

Which is my main motive for leaving the closet and mingleing and interacting with society, chatting politely to strangers, saying Hi

[Launa]

ITS ALL ABOUT LEAVING THE CLOSET!!!

Get out there and live as a part of society. Be seen and then we'll eventually be accepted in. Keep being cowards and hiding in the fringes then we'll never be accepted.

[Melanie B]

I get the feeling that those of us who go out into the real world are a minority, so it's quite likely that many muggles have never encountered one of us in the wild -- at least, not that they've noticed
And those of us that do NOT dress for sexual reasons tend to try to blend -- so we arre less likely to be noticed than those who do.
So it's almost inevitable that the public perception of CDing will be coloured by the conspicuous minority, rather than by those who pass (or blend) unnoticed, or by those who stay in the closet.

[CarlaWestin]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. The best we can do is be ourselves and not be phony about presenting.

It's interesting how the very stereotypical class sorting that we want to eliminate seems to be part of our judgement system. I had a wonderful day out running errands the other day, dressed androgynously, jeans and a long sleeve cotton shirt but also with noticeable 38DD breasts. I never got so much as a glance as far as I know. I really didn't care what other people thought. I was in my comfort zone. The acceptance thing starts within.

[JayeLefaye]

Be the Change...start an advocacy organization...

There are so many thoughtful responses in this thread, but Mia's really got me to thinking...

The difficulty with an advocacy organization, is that none of us(speaking strictly for me) hetero MtF cross dressers are having any of our civil rights trampled upon. We can vote. We can earn equal pay. We can marry. We can do damn near anything we want.


One of my hobbies is collecting obscure laws here in the U.S.A....For instance, did you know that in Minnesota, it is illegal to tease skunks? Or that in (landlocked) Ohio, it is illegal to fish for whales? There are still some laws in states that state: It is illegal for a man to dress as a woman with the object to deceive...Now THAT's a scary one!!!

Fortunately, most of these laws are never enforced...In most of the south eastern states it is illegal to go to church without carrying a gun(that one dates back to colonial times because the natives had a tendency to attack villages on Sunday mornings while everyone congregated)....

Sorry, I'll stop rambling now and get back to addressing Mia's post.

Since I think it would be hard to organize an advocacy group, partly due to the fact that they don't make closets big enough for us all to meet in, I think it would be easier to declare 1 day as a CD-Awareness Day. If two guys in Oregon can declare "International Talk Like a Pirate Day", then I have every right to declare February 7th(his birthday) as "International Eddie Izzard Appreciation Day", and will start a new thread to explain it.

You've been warned:-)

Jaye

[NicoleScott]

ITS ALL ABOUT LEAVING THE CLOSET!!!

Get out there and live as a part of society. Be seen and then we'll eventually be accepted in. Keep being cowards and hiding in the fringes then we'll never be accepted.

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
1) not every closet crossdresser is a coward. Many would have much to lose by coming out, whether that's fair or not.
2) happily closeted crossdressers have no reason to come out. Nothing to gain, much to lose. Especially those who dress for sexual reasons, personal and private, and most everybody wants others to keep their sexual activities personal and private.
3) you want others to come out of their closets for your benefit, not theirs.
4) you use "we", as if crossdressers are all the same. We're not, we're a very diverse bunch.

Let me personalize it. My boss is openly opposed to all who aren't all male or all female in every way, and lumps them all as "queer". I serve at his pleasure, no union rules or contracts to protect my job. If I came out as a crossdresser, I KNOW I would lose my job. I'm living my crossdressing life in the closet to protect my job. Sorry, but I won't be a martyr for your cause.
I like to make up and dress over-the-top, and there is a sexual element to my crossdressing. Do you really want me out there, representing "our" community?

[Paula DAngelo]

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
...

I've been trying to decide on whether or not to comment on this post. I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers and get flamed but I'm sure I'll survive. You say there's so much wrong with the post you quote and as far as I can see there is just one small thing wrong with it. The comment about "Keep being cowards" is wrong, it's not cowardice to protect your own self interests, it smart.

I do agree that we need to leave the closet, however I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should leave the closet. There are many reasons for someone to stay in the closet, you have valid ones as you have said.

With that said, I think it's important for any of us to come out of the closet, if we want to and are able to, if we want society to start to accept us. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, yes I would like others to come out, and yes I would benefit from it but so would they if they want to be accepted. However I'm not asking anyone to martyr themselves for me. I'm out there every day because this is who I am, and if even one person a month comes away with a better impression of us because of me then I have made a positive impact for all of us.

So yes, I do feel it's all about leaving the closet, but only if that is what's right for you, and only each of you can make that decision.

[Lorileah]

Nicole, we do understand your position on this. There are good reasons to not come out. Most involve a huge part of your life as it is.

However, the OP did question how to change perception and Luana gave a valid answer to that. It wasn't wrong except for some cases. And it is true. You can't get people to change how they view something unless you give them some different to view. Consider this (and it is way out in left field because I am sure your boss would never change) but let's say hypothetically that for some strange reason TGs were suddenly accepted by the world. Now your boss can see that you don't dress to rob banks or to tempt men. But how could he know this if so many stay in the closet? He won't. Maybe something like being out will change one person,who will change two people who will change 4. But we know that if you don't try, no one will change.

We do have a huge hurdle in this lifestyle. That is 90% of the people who live it don't/won't admit it. So the other 10% have to do what it takes to change it. That is nothing new in the world of discrimination. For hundreds of years people were told "Accept the life you have. Don't rock the boat because it will upset someone. This is the way it was meant to be." But a few took the step to change that. MLK didn't sit back and say "hey we are doing alright even if we aren't equal." Women didn't just watch as they were marginalized by men. Gays used a little riot to jump off the being closeted train. None of these things happened overnight. It took years. Years of those who had preconceived ideas to re-evaluate. Years to show that stereotypes aren't true. Women could do anything a man could do in the real world (and often times better). Gays are great parents and excellent citizens. But someone had to wave the flag first. We are bringing up the rear on this. We have let others blaze the trail while we stood back and said "That's great except we aren't them". I can see where some TGs don't want to be associated with the gay community...they aren't gay. But by association and periphery we ARE effected by the gay and women's rights fight.

So when someone says "Get out and stand up" they are telling those who are tired of being marginalized, bullied, kept down and/or told they weren't "as good as". The Transsexuals don't have a choice. Staying in the closet really isn't a good option and can lead to all sorts of bad things. The CDs can because when things go south, they can just jump back to being a "man". So why try and change perception? It doesn't effect you...most of the time. Yet it does because even YOUR perception of yourself is degraded by how society portrays you. We aren't saying everyone stand up although that would be the ideal and would progress things at a faster rate. What the OP and Luana are saying is "if you are tired of being a second class person you have to fight for the first class treatment".

[NicoleScott]

Lorileah, I don't disagree with anything you said (except the part about my perception of myself being degraded... but no biggie). Those who want to change the public's perception of CDers - go for it. If there's a problem, we can choose to engage or disengage. I choose to disengage. Again, much to lose, nothing to gain.
My post was in opposition to Luana's attempt to shame CDers out of the closet by calling them cowards. That comment deserved a rebuking. I hope you agree.