Is this true?

[Nikkilovesdresses]

"The term "transvestite" is considered insulting now - don't use it. Use "cross dresser" instead."

Is this really true? If so - why?

If it's good enough for Frankenfurter, why isn't it good enough for this forum?

[kimdl93]

I would guess that you'll find some people who object to the term, just as you'll find people who object to any term. Labels can be useful. Debates about labels seem less so.

[mykell]

the only useful thing i have found with the terms was if doing a search on the web....try transvestite, then crossdresser, and then transgender,
now you see the difference for the vanilla muggles, me im a girly man.....

[audreyinalbany]

I'm not a fan of the term, but I will say it's preferable to "tranny"

[Kate Simmons]

I was a TV long before I was ever a CD. You say tomato I say tomatto I guess.

[Katey888]

Nikki - I think much of this stems from the association of transvestism with transvestic fetishism - the 'sexual branch' of our little community, if you will... Crossdresser is generally accepted as a more generic term of all genders who crossdress for reasons more varied than a purely sexual one... Most of us here, on this forum, will probably feel more at home and comfortable with not being overtly associated with TVF - which can be regarded as a psychological disorder... and anyway, sex is all very visceral and sweaty and base...

I suspect there is also a touch of snobbishness about it too... (I admit it - before the brickbats are hurled - I'm a major league snob.. ) - it does, in my mind, tend to separate the femulators from those in pursuit of sexual adventure, but it's not an exclusionary term.

There's possibly also a hint of language fashion about it too... cross-trainer, cross-country, cross-platform...

I guess a lot depends on how it's used and by whom, the context and how it's received... Would I rather be CD than TV? It does sound marginally more modern...

Katey x

[ReluctantDebutant]

Anyone who finds the term transvestite offensive is being irrational. It literally is Latin for cross-dresser. To prefer cross-dresser over transvestite is to prefer one language's incarnation of the term over another's. In fact most languages' term for cross-dresser is some derivative of transvestite: German; Transvestit, Spanish; travestido, French; travesty. In fact I just tried Google Translate and could not get any real translations for cross-dresser I had to type transvestite in the English side for the other languages to translate it.

What happen here was that probably 60 of 70 years ago very few people knew what a transvestite was except for transvestites and psychologists. In the 1960-70's a lot of transvestites come out of the closet and more a more people knew what a transvestite was so people began to use it including haters. To some the term was used with such scorn they sought a new word that they preferred. So now we have cross-dresser but you will also find a growing group of cross-dressers who don't like that term either. To continue on this trend is asinine we will run out of perfectly good words.

Both terms are really harmless and are very accurate at defining the concepts they are meant to encapsulate.

[CONSUELO]

I tend to use the terms interchangeably. Transvestite literally means cross dresser but I think that the shortened form - Tranny- began to carry a lot of negative baggage so people began to use cross dresser.

[Jaylyn]

Don't really care what we call it I just enjoy dressing and feeling feminine every now and then. I do believe there are differing actions in every CD or Tranvestite person. Just being friends with many from here it seems many have different reasons to dress. Some for sex, some to feel sexual, some to take the place of sex, some having various degrees of what they dress to obtain from the dressing. I don't think of myself as Trans I think I'm just a normal guy enjoying wearing my soft, smooth, feel good clothes sometimes. Call me what you like my hide is tough.

[Adriana Moretti]

If you wanna get REAL geeky.....The word transvestite has been taking a downward spiral according to google analytics..while crossdresser is on it's way up.. food for thought ..
I only use that term in fun with other gals ....I will make fun of myself and others though with phrases like "Are we taking the tranny train today'......i kind of use it as a joking term just for fun. ....
The term to me personally makes me think of someone right out of rocky horror (which isnt to pretty of an image) .....but it dosent really bother me and is always good for a laugh like "Damm...look at that tranny mess"

[Amy Fakley]

... If it's good enough for Frankenfurter, why isn't it good enough for this forum?

Attachment 237799
exhibit a: Frankenfurter

Before y'alls get yer panties in a wad ... I have no problem with fetishists, drag queens, shock performance artists/whatever ... or sharing this board with them. Some of them are amongst the most interesting and kind people I've ever met.

Their thing is slightly different than my thing though, there's no denying that. Making that distinction clear is sometimes important to me ... but not always, and certainly not to the point of being "offended" or whatever ...

[Lorileah]

Anyone who finds the term transvestite offensive is being irrational. It literally is Latin for cross-dresser.

Really bad rationalization as many terms that are derogatory are /were derived from Latin or Greek roots. Just because a culture used it 400 years ago doesn't make it correct now.

What happen here was that probably 60 of 70 years ago very few people knew what a transvestite was except for transvestites and psychologists.

you might go back and read a little history on that...look up the 1920's and the parties that were thrown.

To continue on this trend is asinine we will run out of perfectly good words.

or we will find one that is not derogatory and conveys a positive image. I don't get your point I guess...you mean someday someone somewhere will walk up to a TG and be at a loss of words? That would be ideal

Both terms are really harmless and are very accurate at defining the concepts they are meant to encapsulate.

harmless? Wanna walk a mile in my shoes? Accurate? In small groups of people maybe in general....no where NEAR

[Stephanie47]

I really have not had a discussion with anyone concerning men who wear women's clothing. Among the general public it seems most people think "transgender" automatically means a man having a sex change operation, pre or post operation. Crossdresser seems to related to men who wear women's clothing. The ill informed still make some correlation that all cross dressers are homosexual. How many times have posters in the forum indicate their spouses' first question is "Are you gay?" When I have watched news programs on the subject of men wearing women's clothing, it seems the popular term is cross dresser. When the discussion is centered on the subject of a "misalignment" of the mind and physical body the term is transgender. I really haven't heard the general population, especially among the younger generations, use the term transvestite. The ill informed still make the equation crossdresser = homosexual.

Personally, I prefer the term "cross dresser" because it means just what it implies: wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. As an elder the term "transvestite" implies more than wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. I really do not like the term transgender because the term is too broad and open to a lot of interpretation. It is an umbrella term. Tranny, well, just put it in your search engine and see what pops up.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

...or we will find one that is not derogatory and conveys a positive image

IMO looking for descriptors that aren't derogatory and convey a positive image is another manifestation of political correctness. It's an idealised hope that humans, if instructed clearly and frequently enough, will cease being naughty and behave themselves. It isn't fundamentally wrong, indeed it's often well intended, but it is frequently misguided. Any term can become offensive, or not - and trying to predict all possible future outcomes for, eg, the word gay, is impossible.

[Amy Fakley]

"Political correctness" is a bit of a straw-man, in my opinion. You can argue until you're blue in the face, that the dictionary contains the one true meaning of all terms and that anyone who doesn't adhere to that is misguided, but it changes nothing.

Your words mean what the person hearing them thinks they mean. And when it comes to touchy subjects, that can really really backfire, if you don't take pains to make your intended meaning clear.

for instance:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contr...22niggardly%22

Context means everything, dictionary definitions mean nothing.

[Taylor186]

"Context means everything, dictionary definitions mean nothing.

Generally I would agree that consulting a dictionary derivation adds little to this kind of label discussion. But in this case I think culture trumps context. People born and raised in the UK have little problem with the word "transvestite." Even Eddie Izzard publicly claims the title. We here in the US seem to have more problems with it for reasons already stated above. Me, I'll happily call myself a crossdresser (but, not a cross dresser). I'm a crossdresser who get little time to cross dress.

[Annaliese]

To me they are all just names, Insulting no, call me whatever, I did a "What Type Of Girl Are You" I got Typical Tomboy and it fit me.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Really bad rationalization as many terms that are derogatory are /were derived from Latin or Greek roots. Just because a culture used it 400 years ago doesn't make it correct now.

No that is not what is irrational about it. What is is when you give more emotional weight to one word over another when it means exactly the same thing. But when one uses rational thinking one sees the terms are Identical A=A.

Latin trans- + vestite, form of vestiō (“I clothe, I dress”) (as in English vestment, vest). Literally, a "cross-dresser".

And it does accurately describe what we do. We cross dress we cross or transcend our clothing or vestments it is much more poetic that some of the things I was called when I went out. "Chick with a d*ck" springs to mind. See I might not have walked a mile in your shoes but I think I walked far enough to understand the differences between a derogatory statement and a positive one.

you might go back and read a little history on that...look up the 1920's and the parties that were thrown.

Why stop at 1920 why not Elizabethan England, the Roman Empire, ancient Greece, Egypt? I chose the 60's and 70's because that was the time of the explosion of mass media bringing more subcultures into the homes of millions. Sure some New Yorker in the 20's might have know about the "girls" at the cabaret but what about some shopkeeper or farmer in rural Iowa?

or we will find one that is not derogatory and conveys a positive image. I don't get your point I guess...you mean someday someone somewhere will walk up to a TG and be at a loss of words? That would be ideal

Again how is transvestite derogatory and cross-dresser is not? If it is derogatory then I suggest to American Cross-dressers not visit any other country because most use some form of transvestite in their language to describe cross-dressing. I get it you want a TG to be thought of as indistinguishable from everyone else. But that is not going to happen the act of cross-dressing or being one who cross-dresses does make us distinct from those who don't. Human language needs a word to describe that distinction. Just because a few give a word more negative emotional weight than another word does not mean all who use that word apply the same negative weight to it.

Lets come up with a new word. Femulators. How long before that word gets around till the haters get a hold of it and start using it in a negative way spitting it with vile at ever femulator they see before the "Community" will want to change that word too? Words will be used by everyone however they wish to use it. To continue to change the "PC" term over and over again is very asinine.

[LelaK]

Apparently, transvestite is okay on this forum. They don't ban the word, like they do with the combination of she and male.

[Minerva Morgan]

It seems that Dr. Harry Benjamin, who created the belief that being transsexual was the whole of being transgendered through his deliberate, if erroneous, conflation of sex and gender, was a major factor in the development of ‘cross-dresser’ as a reaction to the term ‘transvestite’. Dr. Harry Benjamin described ‘transvestism’ as, together with ‘homosexuality’ and ‘bisexuality’, “… all revealing a disturbed, doubtful, confused, and uncertain manifestation of sex.” Even when reserving ‘transvestite’ as a term in Psychology indicative of the sexual aspects of cross-dressing this judgment is harsh. I do not believe that male androphiles are in any way doubtful about their sexuality and, if they are in fact disturbed and confused, it is value judgments such as those made by Dr. Benjamin that created the problem not their sexuality. The timing and known interactions between the relevant persons suggests that ‘cross-dresser’ was devised between 1967 and 1969 (although used in a somewhat vague application as early as 1912) in a direct response to and as a counter to Benjamin’s assertions. ‘Transvestite’, in some circles, became regarded as a form of deliberate insult. ‘Transgender’, at the same time (1969) was intended to refer to someone who adopted a wholly, full-time, feminine presentation but who did not transition. The media made short work of that intention by specifically using ‘transgender’ to mean ‘transsexual’. The media, while preferring to prey upon the prurient interests of the general public, is simultaneously fastidious in its prudery in avoiding the word ‘sex’, creating numerous misconceptions.
Zagria (2012) notes the use of the words ‘travestissent’, ‘travesties’ and ‘travestissement’ in an ordinance issued by the Paris Préfecture de Police, dated “16 Brumaire IX (7 November 1800 in the Gregorian calendar)”. Variations appear to have been in use as early as 1791 and presumably before. In this particular the ordinance forbade females from dressing as men without a permit and a letter from a physician stating that so dressing was a medical necessity. The ordinance seems to have no longer been seriously enforced after 1890. Zagria reproduces an image of permission 74 dated 1862. The first section of the ordinance is reproduced as:

“Informé que beaucoup de femmes se travestissent, et persuadé qu’aucune d’elles ne quitte les habits de son sexe que pour cause de santé;”

MtF cross-dressing was apparently no longer a crime by 1791. In, “Gender Variant Jargon”, Zagria also states:

• The Italian ‘travestire’ from the Latin ‘transvestire’ is recorded in the 16th century. It is first recorded in French as ‘transvestir’ in 1569, and had become ‘travestir’ by 1580. The Italian origin probably accounts for the retained ‘s’ rather than a circumflex, as opposed to ‘větir’ without the prefix. The original meaning is dressing up or disguise rather than gendervesting in particular. The English meaning of ‘travesty’ as ‘ridiculous’ is not used in the French.
• The word ‘travesty’ first became well known in England in 1648 with Scarron’s satire, “Le Virgile Travesty en vers burlesque.” So the modern English meaning of things done badly or ridiculously was there almost from the start, but so was the meaning of dressing as another.
• However the pseudo-French expression ‘en travesti’, using the past participle of the verb, which is not recorded in French, was used particularly in the theatre with the specific meaning of dressing as the other gender. This usage has continued from the seventeenth century until today.
• The verb form, ‘to travesty’, is not found until after 1700, and was not needed for the sense of Gendervesting, for the verb ‘to transvest’ is recorded from 1652: “How often did she please her fancy with the imagination of transvesting herself, and by the help of Man’s disguise deceiving the eyes of those who watched her deportment”. This usage, particularly applied to female-bodied persons continued into the nineteenth century.
• ‘Travestissement’ was being used in France by 1692.
• ‘Transvestisme’ is recorded in French in 1845. The Petit Robert lists it as an hapax (only one recorded instance) in this period, but just as Ed Wood used ‘transsexual’ before Harry Benjamin did, people on the street are using words before dictionary compilers catch up with them.
• ‘Travestiment’ was being used in England by 1832, and ‘Travestier’ by 1883.

It is important to note that while Hirschfeld is credited with inventing the term, transvestite, in the early 1900s as a means of dignifying the conditions he sought to study rather than stigmatizing it, he was not comfortable with the word, ‘transvestite’, and its various forms. In particular, he was referring to the sexual aspect of cross-dressing where a male dressed for sexual arousal often losing interest, or even developing self-loathing, once having climaxed. Gradually, Hirschfeld used the term in a more expanded version. He regarded the wearing of clothing usually associated with the other sex as indicative of psychological problems but not as a problem in itself. His intent was to make not only variations in gender more acceptable but to assist those who suffered in resolving their issues more easily. This included his fostering the concept of altering one’s gender appearance (anatomical presentation) to match one’s Gender Identity and included his promoting the practice of official recognition in changing of names and sex designations on official documents.
The term is Latin, meaning, basically, ‘across’ + ‘dressed’ taken from geographical terms such as transalpine (across the alps) and transylvania (across the forests). It, unfortunately, conveys the belief that genders (and also sexes) are ‘opposites’.
Hirschfield was not particularly happy with the term ‘transvestite’ as its usage has exceeded his original intention. It has also has been the basis of more pejorative terms such as ‘tranny’. Essentially, to me, it is an affectation in Psychology attempting to label everyone who does not fit an arbitrary sartorial norm (the Psychology version of morality) with a ‘diagnosis’ of some form of mental ailment. It sounds better if you say it in Latin.
For some the distinction between ‘cross-dresser’ and ‘transvestite’ is that the cross-dresser simply wears feminine clothing, as a means of self-expression, while the transvestite is sexually motivated. This attempt at distinction simply under-evaluates the significance of the sexual component of ‘dressing’ for the cross-dresser and over-evaluates its significance with a transvestite. In the latter case the term is suggested to be indicative of paraphilia and the term ‘transvestite’ is diagnostic in nature; which is precisely why objections have been raised to the term.
The term appears to have originated in 1911 as a translation of the German (?),’transvestismus’ (Hirschfeld, Magnus, “Die Transvestiten. Eine Untersuchung über den erotischen Verkleidungstrieb mit umfangreichem casuistischen und historischen Material”, Berlin 1910, Alfred Pulvermacher). The title is variously translated as something like, “The Transvestites: An Investigation of the Erotic Desire to Cross Dress”. Another (inaccurate) translation is, “The Transvestite: a study available via the sexy trim engine: with extensive casuistical and historical material”. Apparently ‘cross-dresser’ and ‘trim engine’ are synonyms in German. It seems that ‘trim engine’ is better translated as ‘urge to disguise’ with ‘Verkleidung’ meaning ‘disguise’ or ‘cover over’. As near as I can determine ‘casuistical’ refers directly to ethics defining morality based on precedence and/or situation; or to specious and dishonest reasoning. This is another term used in almost diametrically opposite meanings.
Hirschfeld’s efforts initiated the modern need for new terminology. Since this terminology often was the basis of diagnosing mental illness (or what was thought to be mental illness) there was a great deal of discomfort with the day-to-day application of these terms. ‘Transvestite’ in particular fell out of popular favour in the early 1970s especially amongst some cross-dressers who sought to disassociate themselves from transsexual persons, the Gay community and from those for whom cross-dressing was largely sexually motivated. In turn, elements of the Gay community sought to disassociate from cross-dressers in order to reduce the ‘femme’ imagery of male androphilia. In recognition of the objections made the psychological community devised the term ‘transvesticfetishism’. This may or may not be indicative of the questionable linguistic skills of psychologists in general as the proposition that sexual behaviour is necessarily a sickness is, in itself, insulting. There is also the term ‘homeovestism’ which is sexual arousal by wearing the clothing generally believed suitable to one’s own sex. Perhaps this refers to females who feel a heightened libido when athenasing for a special occasion. The concept further suggests that a vestiture-stimulated sexual response is equally possible for both sexes. I am not sure that this is the intention but it may be a term applicable to females who also dress not only to be attractive but also to be sexy (from their point-of-view) and thus experience sexual arousal. In other words, I am not sure that ‘transvestic fetishism’ is limited to males, except that in females it is not really ‘transvestic’. Perhaps, ‘transvestic fetishism’, in this context, should be ‘heterovestism’. Such are the difficulties of creating a new language. In any case, cross-dressing has, for many cross-dressers, become largely disconnected from the concept of dressing for sexual activities and is recognized as a goal or motive in itself.
To be fair, George Zavitzianos and Louise J. Kaplan in using the term ‘homeovestism’ may have a case in proposing that some people tend to be more ‘male’ in their attire, for example, as a compensation to their desire to cross-dress thereby sublimating that desire. This would be similar to male ‘homosexuals’ being ultra masculine and developing a violent ‘homophobia’ to mask their own inclinations from themselves as well as others.

Minerva.

Benjamin, Harry, MD, “The Transsexual Phenomenon”, Julian Press, New York, 1966, 10 March 2013, retrieved 25 February 2014 from:
http://web.archive.org/web/200903080.../ijt/benjamin/
Hirschfeld, Magnus, “Die Transvestiten. Eine Untersuchung über den erotischen Verkleidungstrieb mit umfangreichem casuistischen und historischen Material”, Berlin, 1910, Alfred Pulvermacher.
Kaplan, Louise J., “Female Perversions: The Temptations of Madame Bovary”, Doubleday, 1991.
Zagria, “La Préfecture de Police, Paris, and permissions de travestissement”, ‘A Gender Variance Who’s Who’, 28 May 2012, retrieved 16 February 2014 at:
http://zagria.blogspot.ca/2012/05/la...paris-and.html
Zavitzianos, George, “Homeovestism: Perverse Form of Behaviour Involving the Wearing of Clothes of the Same Sex”, ‘International Journal of Psychoanalysis’, 53 (4): pp. 471–477, 1972.

[Tina_gm]

I generally dislike political correctness, as it is ever changing. What was once a good term or word later on becomes offensive, because someone decided it so. Negro was once an acceptable term for a black person, and they can still use it when they want to, among other things, but it is no longer socially acceptable. Transvestite is no longer acceptable but I do not know why, other than someone decided it wasn't. Most of us consider ourselves as transgender, or behave in ways under the transgender spectrum umbrella.

I don't really care all that much about any word TBH, because one day it will change and another word will pop up in its place. I don't use it, as some people find it offensive, so I use the current terms, which will one day become offensive and then I will use whatever isn't, as stupid as it all is.

[Kate Simmons]

Holey Moley. Call me anything but "late for dinner".

[Taylor Ray]

I would guess that you'll find some people who object to the term, just as you'll find people who object to any term. Labels can be useful. Debates about labels seem less so.

Well said!

Such an interesting line of inquiry! The relationship between semantics and unwritten social norms is very interesting indeed! But we all know philosophy can be a huge can of worms...

So, as many of the fine gals have expressed on this forum: live your life the way you want to! Be a participant! The "observers" can call me anything they want!

[Tiffany Jane]

I believe it has become unacceptable because those who use it haven't taken the time to understand the term, nor taken the time to understand the people whom they are referring. Therefore, it appears to have a very negative connotation, when used. Crossdresser, by the sound, is less about the emotion or psyche of a person, and more to describe ones appearrance.

I used to work in an area with many transgendered people and customers. I would ask coworkers not to use the forementioned T term, giving the reason that anyone has the right to be themselves however it is regardless of how others may feel about it. Many of these customers were merely going through the same weekly routines all people who have to eat do and only on rare occassions did I think someone was overtly emphatic with there demeanor causing extra attention to themselves.

Just my perspective.

[MonikaTirola]

Very interesting Minerva. Thanks for the discourse.

As a native German speaker, I would like tone break down
"Verkleidungstrieb" , I wound translate it as urge/instinct/drive to disguise.

Other correct translations include:
Paneling sprout , casing pinion, sheathing shoot and wait another possibility
costume sex drive

As others have said; it is all about context.