It's always entirely our fault

[PaulaQ]

My boyfriend and I were sitting on the couch in his tiny living space talking about our past lives. There are quite a few common elements in our present situations with our last serious relationships - our marriages:
- Both of us were married to women, with rather long relationships - 13 years in his case, 20 in mine.
- Both of the relationships ended when we realized we had to transition, and informed our spouse "yup, now's the time."
- Both of us got kicked out of homes we largely paid for
- We both ended up in different cities, with rather fewer material possessions than we used to have. A LOT fewer. And a whole lot less money.
- Both of our ex-wives continue to be angry with us, blaming us for ruining their lives.
- Both of these women seem to blame us for leaving - even though they insisted we leave.
- We both get periodic, random angry texts from our exes.

The symmetry in our relationships with our exes is really quite surprising to me. Now in my case, I thought the reaction was best explained by the fact that I tried to suppress my gender, and to "man up", totally blindsiding her when I simply couldn't take it anymore. I get that. I thought it was a good explanation. (And there's no real need to debate this - the pro's and con's of all this have been hashed out in a whole bunch of threads on my past marriage.)

Now you may be thinking "aha! He did the exact same thing to his wife - blindsiding her! Here the poor woman thought she was in a nice lesbian relationship, only to discover that she was with a man." And it would be exactly the same situation if that's what had actually happened. But that isn't the case at all.

My boyfriend never presented as a female over his entire life, at least once he was big enough to dress himself. He has never presented himself as being anything other than a man. When he met his ex-wife, he was quite clear about this with her upfront:
1. He's a straight man
2. They are not in a lesbian relationship, if that's what she wanted, she should end it because she'll be disappointed, because being with him was going to be like being with a man in every aspect of the relationship, including sex.
3. He ultimately intended to transition.

This is exactly opposite of the situation I was in - he was totally upfront with her.

But none of that made any difference. When he finally told her he needed to medically and legally transition (for all practical purposes, he socially transitioned in high school and college), she kicked him to the curb, blaming him for everything.

And it really amazed the both of us that despite doing entirely different things, the outcome for our relationships was essentially identical.

It just really seems sometimes that no matter what we might do, it is just always our fault for being trans.

And I guess I wouldn't think about this so much - but it seems I'm likely to have to travel back to my old home. I found out about that on Friday, and it's kind of made me think about a lot of things over the weekend. I apparently need to do some repair work on some equipment that was part of my old hobby, that I gave to my wife in the divorce, and told her that I'd help her sell, the proceeds of the sale being hers to keep. Hopefully it hasn't all deteriorated too much from neglect - I haven't been able to access it for 18 months now. I'll do it - I promised her I'd help her with it. Before it can be sold though, it's going to need some TLC. Maybe quite a bit of TLC.

I think going back there will be one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. She won't be there while I'm there, which is probably for the best. She can't bear to see me, she says. (BTW, my BF's ex says much the same thing, although they have no further business between them, so there's really no reason for them to see one another.) Anyway, I was resigned, and had made my peace with losing all this stuff. But having to reopen all of that is going to be very hard emotionally, I think. It was hard emotionally when I did much the same thing with our old home in Dallas - it was hard to be there because of the memories. It was hard to put money on the table just to be able to sell the thing. And the thing is - I hated that house in Dallas - I was glad to be rid of the thing. Well, I loved our place in Oklahoma, and I loved my hobby, I loved a lot of things about my life - except for who I was. I think reliving those feelings will be rough.

But I'm sure I'll get through this too, just like I did with our other place. My old hobby is dead to me at this point anyway. I will never participate in any of that again. It's just - I don't think I could deal with the feelings it would bring up. Just as well - I don't have time for hobbies anyway.

Assuming, of course, that I don't simply get murdered by one of the transphobic locals, because she'll almost certainly tell them why she isn't at home the weekend I go up there. Because that's just what she always does - she tells everyone everything. (Wish I was joking about this last part, but sadly, I'm not. They do not like transsexuals much in Eufaula Oklahoma.)

[I Am Paula]

Although it is not my case, and obviously I don't know PaulaQ's, I think a lot of transfolk give up huge amounts in their divorces from feeling guilty. If the divorce proceedings were brought on for 'normal' reasons, we would fight tooth and nail for a somewhat fair settlement. In the case of one partner transitioning, he or she feels so much guilt, they practically hand over the house and bank account. Human nature I guess. I know a few transwomen that just gave up too easily, to get the clean break they needed, and ended up in dire financial straits.

[PaulaQ]

@I Am Paula - it is very difficult to know that another person, one who I loved for a long time, has such intensely negative feelings about me that they can't even bear to look at me. After nearly two years, this is no better. Really, both me and my BF are in the same boat on this - both of us find that our exes simply can't bear to deal with us, as if we did something horrible to them personally. I mean, my sister feels like that about her ex - but he actually pushed her out of a moving car before she reached that point. Years of infidelity on his part didn't bring her to that point - it really only happened after he got really violent.

I talked to my BF this afternoon. He told me about his next door neighbor. She had a second mastectomy to treat her cancer. He'd overheard her and her spouse fighting rather loudly at times in the past few months. She told him, though, that they were doing OK, and they'd get through this together.

I find myself jealous of her situation - I'd much rather have been born cis, and had cancer, than what I've had to deal with over my life. Oh well, we don't get to choose.

It's kind of interesting to see where transness rates, though, in terms of life's calamities, I guess.

[kimdl93]

Honestly, any reasonably self aware person who has been through a divorce can empathize with how both of you feel. Its so very common that one part to a divorce feels they are blameless and demands that the other party take full responsibility. That characteristic, the self righteous sense of entitlement, is often what drives a marriage to divorce in the first place. In reality, both parties ALWAYS are responsible when a relationship fails. If one or the other can't see or acknowledge their own contribution, for good and ill, the relationship is doomed.

[Jorja]

Well of course it is your fault. Who else is she going to blame for every little thing? If she hates you that much, my advise is to stay away from her as much as possible as in cut off all ties. I would not return to repair your old hobby (whatever that was). She wanted it in the divorce, let her get it fixed. It is her problem not yours. You do not need the stress this visit will cause.

[PaulaQ]

Well of course it is your fault. Who else is she going to blame for every little thing? If she hates you that much, my advise is to stay away from her as much as possible as in cut off all ties. I would not return to repair your old hobby (whatever that was). She wanted it in the divorce, let her get it fixed.

No, she wanted the money that selling it would generate. And yes, I am the obvious go-to girl to blame for everything that's wrong in her life.

Here's the item in question:
eufodome-night2-sm.jpg

It was a lifelong ambition to build my observatory. Selling this isn't very pleasant emotionally.

Still, I promised her I'd help her sell this as part of our divorce, so I'll do my best to keep my promise. But no, I definitely don't think I need the stress this is causing me. There's really no way she can deal with this - the technical issues are really beyond her, or anyone else she has access to. We tried selling it without a visit from me, and that failed because the buyer noted problems that she just didn't see. It's a lot of money to her.

I'd really hoped the sale would have gone through - because at that point I really am done with her. I know I can't take a whole lot more of this.

I know her attitude about me is unlikely to change no matter how this all works out. I don't even really feel guilty about what happened at this point. Yeah, I should have come out when I was 18, or maybe when I was 26, transitioned, and taken my (probably rather horrible) lumps at that time. I didn't, and there isn't one thing I can do about that now. Yes, I should have told her about it all before hand. I didn't. Again, not much I can do about that now. Did I ask for any of this? No, I did not, and it's not like I had much of the information I have today back then.

I will keep my word on what I promised, to the best of my ability to do that. It will make not one iota of difference to anyone's attitude but my own - certainly not hers. The proceeds should help her materially though. I don't expect her to appreciate it at all. Indeed, if anything goes less well than she expects, she'll probably blame me for that too. But I'll know what I did, and that's really all I can do anything about.

At this point, I'm hoping that after I've dealt with this, one way or another, that it's the last time I ever have to deal with her again. I don't really have any anger or animosity towards her. I wish her the best, and I've done everything I can do to try to make her life be as OK as possible. Seriously - I hope she can find ways to be happy, and have a great life. But I can't take much more of this, and I really dislike the way I feel about myself when I have to deal with her. So I think after this, I'll just do my best to honor her wishes and just disappear off the face of the earth, at least from her perspective.

[LeaP]

There is no messier object than an ex. (excuse the pun) Beautiful observatory. I make do with binoculars and a spotting scope, even if I dream of Takahashi APOs and Paramount equatorials ... Oh well, at least I have good binos.

There's nothing surprising in the reaction of the exes. Undermining unexamined assumptions is one of the most aggressive transgressions, it seems. What does surprise me in exes, however, is the expectation, or at least behavior, that some part of the relationship still exists. Once the divorce is final - and preferably before that point - THAT'S IT. No more "you AND me". No more "we" did this or that. No "us." A difficult ex is really no different than a mouthy, opinionated neighbor. Stand, and insist on, the new social distance. No tolerance of relationship presumption. Cut her off at the knees. I'm serious, Paula. The attitude should not so much be that you even hope she has a great life as it is that her life is totally, completely irrelevant. What you have remaining is unwinding the financial part of a contract.

[Karen62]

Paula, you are one of the first people I reached out to on this forum when I joined because I think so highly of how you've written about your experience, your selflessness (I remember the thread where you passed up an early chance to have the life confirming surgery you've wanted all along because you made commitments to helping other women), and your personal strength. But I have to speak out to you on this one thing.

I don't even really feel guilty about what happened at this point.

Why in the world is the phrase "even really" in this sentence? Or for that matter, the phrase "at this point"? This is like feeling guilty for having green eyes or knobby knees! This is who you are -- how can you feel guilty for that? This upsets me because I see you are persecuting yourself over this (and by implied context, it is a long-term, ongoing persecution at that). This is absurd. You are so selfless in helping others, yet you've allowed this harsh, selfish woman to convince you that you are a horrid person for deciding to actually live life, not snuff it out as you have alluded to contemplating. You are not being the same Paula to yourself as you are to others, and frankly, I think you deserve to be treated better than that -- by yourself!

Yeah, I should have come out when I was 18, or maybe when I was 26, transitioned, and taken my (probably rather horrible) lumps at that time. I didn't, and there isn't one thing I can do about that now. Yes, I should have told her about it all before hand. I didn't. Again, not much I can do about that now. Did I ask for any of this? No, I did not, and it's not like I had much of the information I have today back then.

The last half of this quote is exactly right! When you were 18 or 26, if you were like me and most other people, you were less mature, less savvy about life, and you made your choices then as best you could. But were those decisions made to be malicious toward the woman you married? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing you went into the marriage with the best of intentions, the highest of hopes, that your life would change. And dammit, it didn't, but who among us can know the future? You did nothing wrong, hon. Life dealt you a bad hand, and you did your level best to go along for a very long time, until you just could not do so anymore. Does that make you mean, bad, or evil? Hell, no! And for anyone to accuse you of that is clearly not thinking empathetically, not understanding what you have been going through throughout your life, the sacrifices you have made, and is instead only thinking about herself, poor old missy. The hell with all that, Paula.

You want to know why you should be above the fray here, not tormented by this emotional torture that you are allowing your ex to put upon you? Here's a great example of why:

I will keep my word on what I promised, to the best of my ability to do that.

You are a noble human being, Paula, a woman of her word, despite having all reasonable excuses to not follow-up on your promise. But I do ask you, if honoring the nobility of your word generates nothing but sheer torture within you, is it still the right thing to do? At some point, you need to think about your needs. Transitioning was not a choice for you, as far as I can tell from past comments. It was a life or death requirement. Your ability to bury your needs for the sake of others is already clearly demonstrated. I just wish that you would give yourself some slack, some wiggle room, to be a human being who sometimes says "No, I just can't do this". You even alluded to the possibility of exposing yourself to personal, physical danger by going back to the old place surrounded by intolerant neighbors (who will likely have been told about your presence and your situation by your ex). To me, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Paula, do what you need to do -- I will support your decision. But please stop allowing yourself to feel guilty for something that you had no control over. You are innocent of that alleged crime. And please do not expose yourself to any danger! You've suffered enough already. You don't deserve any of that.

Take care, my dear. I wish you peace, love, and self-respect (I'm looking for a little of that myself).

Hugs,

Karen

[Starling]

Paula, my greatest desire is to transition, at least socially, but my greatest fear is the pain and retribution it will draw forth. The lash of hate from someone you were once in love with is about the worst punishment one can suffer. I don't know if I have the strength to bear it. You did, and now you are living with the consequences of resetting your life; but here's the silver lining--the worst has already passed.

As difficult as it will be to visit the home you loved and shuffle through the embers of what once was a marriage of two souls, your visit will be brief and final. I do understand your trepidation about the local idiots, however, and think maybe you should bring along a burly astronomer's apprentice. Good luck, sweet lady.

Lallie

[PaulaQ]

Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

The quote above is why I will do what I can to discharge my obligations under our divorce decree to the best of my ability, regardless of how she feels about it in the end. I owe her amends because I was NOT honest with her 20 years ago. I wasn't honest with myself, my sponsor, my therapist nor anyone else about my feelings.

Sure, it was a completely unfair situation, but regardless of that, I did not work my spiritual program. I knew what I was supposed to do, and I did not do it. She came to harm as a result, and I take responsibility for that. So I am doing what is within my power to make amends. I don't do this out of guilt, not anymore, anyway. I do it because my beliefs, for what they are worth, require me to hold myself accountable for my actions, lest I relapse into insanity or even death.

I'm definitely not obligated to come to harm myself. And if circumstances arise that make this impossible to carry out, including hostility on her part, that is beyond my control, and again I'll have made my amends as best it is humanly possible to do. None of this requires forgiveness from her - which is a good thing, because I'm unlikely to receive it.

So sure, life handed me a bad deal. Nevertheless, I reacted to my situation in ways that simply were not fundamentally honest, and that dishonesty nearly cost me my life at least twice. So I simply have to hold myself to a higher standard, as best I can, lest I allow those tendencies to destroy me.

@LeaP - the scope in that photo is a 20" Planewave, and it is indeed on a Paramount. And perhaps it's just as well that I'll no longer have it. My namesake, Aunt Minnie, always insisted that my interest in space was a vanity, and perhaps she was right after all - I mean look where it got me.

The attitude should not so much be that you even hope she has a great life as it is that her life is totally, completely irrelevant. What you have remaining is unwinding the financial part of a contract.

I'll be honest, for a long time, I've hoped we'd eventually be friends. I've seen this happen in other marriages that broke up over transness of one of the partners. But at this point, I just want this all to be over, and to never, ever have to deal with her again.

All this would be easier if I didn't care about her. But I did, and still do, and apparently that isn't going away anytime soon either. But because of that, once I've discharged this last obligation, I have to protect myself from her hostility.

[Emma Beth]

Paula, you are a real Lady for what you're doing. You are being the better woman in this and I don't know if I could do it myself.

At the very least, after I was done with what you are going to do for your Ex, I would at least send her a bill for the travel, parts and other expenses. I would make it as professional as I could and I would at least make it for an amount that I would break even with so I wouldn't be put out any more than I already have been. Doing that I would still be keeping my promise by helping her out, but I wouldn't be spending my own money to help out.

You really are an example of being true to yourself.

Liz

[marshalynn]

Paula, I am very proud of you for setting standards for your self, you have no one to answer to except your self for how you live your life. It is my honor to know of some one who keeps their word, no matter what.. Marshalynn

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Hi Paula, I urge you not to make this journey alone.

Perhaps you view the physical risks as your just desserts- I don't know, but the way you talk, it seems a part of you feels you deserve what ever's coming, that in some way it is your karma. If that's way off the mark I sincerely apologize, but there's a sense of duty, and then there's putting yourself in harm's way.

You've made up your mind to do this thing, and I get that you hope to achieve closure over it, but are you sure there isn't an element of self-flagellation going on here? What if this trip doesn't see the scope fully repaired, and you find unexpected problems that require additional parts? What if it hasn't sold by this time next year and further deterioration occurs? Where does that leave your hoped-for closure?

I once had a messy break up with a spiteful girlfriend. She'd faked pregnancy to try to get me to marry her. Thinly veiled threats were made about what her brothers might do to someone who mistreated her and I left the country for a month hoping the dust would settle. When I returned I found a crude firebomb had been put through my front door letter box- luckily it had fizzled out. She had been pestering my main employer, making up all sorts of horrible lies- I'd warned them what to expect and they sided with me. Her last hold over me was that I had left some valuable items at her house, and 3 months later in response to a text from her telling me she was over me and that I could pick them up, I reluctantly decided to take her at her word...one last time. The meet was for 8pm, well after dark, and on the way there I decided that I was being really stupid. I vowed that as I drove up the (normally quiet) road to her house, if I saw anyone waiting around, I'd put my foot down and keep going. As I slowed down, looking all around me, there under some trees right opposite her house were two guys in dark clothing. It was dark, cold, and there was nothing there that would normally cause people to hang out. I accelerated away and their heads swivelled to watch me go. I never went back, and I left the country permanently very shortly after.

I see that nothing is going to stop you from fulfilling your intention, but the chances of something happening to you are hugely reduced by taking a witness along with you. Doesn't have to be a bodybuilder, just another person. If you're worried that this will antagonise your ex, then don't tell her. And for god's sake stay somewhere else for the night, if you were thinking of using the house; come and go during broad daylight, and keep your car keys on you.

Be safe- you deserve posivity in your life.

[LeaP]

Good God, a 20" PW on a Paramount? Tell you what ... seeing as I'm not getting that new Bimmer 7-Series this year, I'll buy your setup, lock, stock, and barrel. Of course, the REASON I'm not getting the car is because I only have $1k to spend. So if you'll take THAT, why, I'd be happy doing you the favor of taking it off your hands. Let me know what you think. Hmmm - on second thought, maybe not ...

[Michelle789]

In reality, both parties ALWAYS are responsible when a relationship fails. If one or the other can't see or acknowledge their own contribution, for good and ill, the relationship is doomed.

I have a hard time believing that is always the case. That is like saying that because we're trans, and there is so much stigma to being trans, and we do anything in our power to hide it, that it is our fault for being born with the most stigmatized condition on the planet.

So if we're born trans, we really have three options.

1. Come out and transition at a young age, avoid getting married under the false pretense of pretending to be a man (or woman in the case of FTM), but face the stigma 20 years ago that was 100 times worse than it was today. You now must pass or die, and there is an excellent chance you will have to resort to sex work, but you're not a liar and you're not at fault for wrecking a marriage.
2. Get married, try your best at pretending to be a man, avoid all the stigma and consequences, only to transition 20 years later, and deal with a messy divorce. It is now all your fault for lying to your partner, and to yourself, for all those years. So basically, this is delaying the inevitable. You still lose a lot in the process.
3. Suicide.

So basically, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is the ultimate catch 22, or maybe I should say catch 222. IMO, you're not at fault when dealt a catch 22, especially since there was nothing you could have done to avoid it. We have no control over our birth circumstances.

My hope is that someday we will recognize gender dysphoria s a medical condition, and people will be allowed to transition, without stigma, fear, or severe financial consequences, and avoid having to face the choices TSes had to face in the past.

[Kate T]

So if we're born trans, we really have three options.

You missed option 4. Come out to your partner as being trans. Learn and understand their concerns, imagine yourself in their shoes. Try and help them to understand as much as they can about you and about being trans. Then love and trust them. Trust them to make the best decision for both of you for where your relationship goes. Sometimes that may mean an amicable separation. Sometimes they may choose to stay. There are plenty of examples of both situations on the internet and even on these forums. The key in all of these relationships it seems to me is love and trust.

[Michelle789]

Adina,

The problem with option #4 is if you come out early in your relationship, like before you get married, essentially there is a good chance the relationship/marriage wouldn't last, and to many of us who transitioned late we thought that marriage could help us to hide from transition, plus it looked better to get married. After all, if you didn't get married, people might think you're gay, which is also stigmatized, and to us we might worry that people might figure out that we're trans (or at least think we're gay). As for myself, I never got married and I am transitioning in my 30's so neither early nor late. Most of this doesn't apply to me, but I have a lot of sympathy towards those who transitioned late and had to deal with nasty divorces.

[kimdl93]

I have a hard time believing that is always the case. That is like saying that because we're trans, and there is so much stigma to being trans, and we do anything in our power to hide it, that it is our fault for being born with the most stigmatized condition on the planet...

With all due respect, I am afraid you completely misconstrued my point...which was quite literally that , in every divorce EACH party has a share of responsibility for the failure of the relationship. That is certainly NOT, as you state, in any way making it "our fault for being born..." In fact quite the opposite. If you apply my assertion to a relationship between a TS person and their partner, it quite clearly implies that the partner has equal share of responsibility for the outcome. If, as in PaulaQ's case, the partner rigidly sticks a totally intolerant point of view, then they are as much or more responsible for the dissolution as the TS partner.

[Kate T]

Michelle

I would argue that a marriage based on what other people think (i.e. it looks better or people won't think you are gay) is a doomed marriage whether one of the partners is TS or not. In Marriage "two become one" your partners dreams, goals and hopes become as important to you as your own, if not more. Here is the thing though, that goes for BOTH partners in a marriage. I do not know of any person who loves their partner in this way who could bear to do anything that would hurt them. It would be like torturing yourself.

In that marriage then even if the partners separate, they could never deliberately hurt each other.

[PaulaQ]

You missed option 4. Come out to your partner as being trans. Learn and understand their concerns, imagine yourself in their shoes. Try and help them to understand as much as they can about you and about being trans. Then love and trust them. Trust them to make the best decision for both of you for where your relationship goes.

What part of my story was unclear? I disclosed to my wife, albeit years into the marriage. My boyfriend disclosed BEFORE the relationship ever started. In both cases, the outcome was ultimately the same. As soon as the word transition was uttered, it was "game over."

Why would I have trusted my wife "to do the right thing for both of us?" She really became extremely unstable and irrational when this all started. The only time I wsaw much concern from her was after I attempted suicide. It didn't change her behavior, but she did realize that she needed my financial support, and that it would've hurt our kids. Shortly thereafter, she kicked me out. The extent of her concern about me so far has been:
- she let me take some 15 year old furniture, which I bought in the first place. (I ended up having to buy her replacement pieces)
- she let me take one of our cats - the one that didn't get along well with her cat.

Other than that, despite an extremely generous divorce settlement on my part (it was far better than the court could've ordered), she's not once expressed the slightest concern about my situation. I inquire after her from time to time through our kids. I still care about her. Her only communications with me, however, involve:
- stuff she still wants from me
- expressions of her anger and hostility towards me - she hates that "I get to be happy" (whatever in the hell that means. Me? I'm just trying to navigate through the nightmare that has characterized my life )

I tried to put myself in her shoes - and you know what? In every case I can imagine, I treat her better than she treated me!

You didn't list the possibility that a trans person's spouse simply freaks out, and in completely irrational anger and transphobia lashes out at the trans person, blaming them for the whole thing, and ending the marriage, even though that is a very common outcome, and I is what I'm complaining about. For the spouses who react this way, they really do see this as being all the fault of the trans person.

If, as in PaulaQ's case, the partner rigidly sticks a totally intolerant point of view, then they are as much or more responsible for the dissolution as the TS partner.

So why is any of this my fault? I didn't ask to be born this way. I simply realized that I desperately needed medical attention, medical attention who's side effects really suck for a spouse. I mean, I get why she can't stay married to a woman. But what did I do wrong that made me responsible for the breakup? Should I have compromised on getting medical treatment? She freaking kicked me out before any of that started! Should I have somehow known, 25 years ago, that I'd reach a point of no return, and that my feelings really were real, and I'd have to transition anyway, and therefore I should've done it, and never married her? Hon, I was so scared, and so deep in denial in my own head, and had NO RESOURCES to really understand this stuff. I buried it for 20 years. How was I to know that doing that would nearly bury me?

Oh wait - never mind - as a trans*, I'm held to standards of honesty, disclosure, and foresight that real humans aren't really expected to meet!

I left because she threw me out. I didn't want the relationship to end.

You may as well just assign me 100% of the blame, Kim, including blame for her behavior. She certainly does.

[Carlene]

In my opinion, responsibility is the standard by which our social behaviour is measured, therefore there is no responsibilty for beong transgender. Being trans is not an action, but rather, it just is. There remains, however, the pain and disappointment for all involved because, in most cases this was not part of the initial marriage bargain.

I'm so sorry for your anguish Paula, but I don't think you being trans, brings with it any responsibilty.

[LeaP]

Marital responsibilities alone can be considered from several points of view – legal, ethical, moral, cultural, religious, etc. Medical, too. And the framework of marital responsibilities is just one such in which we live.

There is a huge difference between having responsibility for what you are versus what you do about it. You can say that there is no responsibility for being what you are – and it's true – but it is pretty meaningless. To take the position that any state of being automatically confers or removes certain rights or responsibilities is extreme.

On the other hand, most will agree that we are responsible for our decisions and actions. Whether those are viewed as good or evil, excusable or inexcusable, forgivable or not, typical or atypical, delightful or disappointing, or anything else is a matter of the standards applied. Moreover, we generally hold people responsible for their actions regardless of their knowledge of any particular standard – as long as they are of age and psychologically competent (yes, I recognize cultural variation in these, too).

Paula, you are responsible for the decisions you have made and the actions you have taken. Your ex is responsible for hers. Necessity doesn't remove responsibility. Neither is it the same as compulsion.

I have devoted some time in therapy to the topic of responsibility. I still remember the opening salvo. I remarked that my wife thought me responsible for the whole mess. I was looking for absolution, of course. Poor me. So I was dismayed when she laughed said "of course you're responsible"! Now she did not mean that I was solely responsible for everything that resulted. But she did mean that I was, and am responsible for acting. Analyzing how all of the responsibilities for consequences divvies up is hopelessly complex. (See opening paragraph) Getting back to one of my earlier points, you need to be aware of where engaging in that analysis amounts to continuing the relationship.

The more one is self-aware, the better grounded their decisions. I have spent much of my life running away from responsibility for my decisions. I have finally reached the point where I am happy to take the responsibility, even if I am not always thrilled with the consequences.

[Michelle789]

Actually, although I was never married, and never had a relationship until after I begun my transition, I can still relate. Other than showing feminine behavior as a kid, and once voicing to my parents that I am a girl at the age of 5 (they have no recollection of this btw), I never said a word about this to my family. When I came out to my family in November, both my father and my brother were angry with me that I didn't talk to them sooner about this. My brother asked my why I didn't tell him sooner. I told him that I had no access to knowledge for 22 years of my life, and once I learned what being TS is, I still didn't tell them out of fear on how they might react.

I was financially dependent on them when I was in grad school. I was active in my alcoholism, which caused me to repress this further. My father had threatened me on my very last day of college (I started grad school that fall) that if I was to actually be gay, that he would disown me. Now, being transgender is 100 times more stigmatized than being gay, so you could only imagine the fear I had in ever telling my father, or any family member, that I was TS. My father had already suspected I was gay and became 99% convinced that I was gay, the only doubt is that I never said anything to him. Of course, I am not a gay man, I am TS. Femininity in a man is usually read as being gay, or sometimes as having Asperger's. My family actually suspected both in me.

So when I came out to my family back in November, my family accused me of being dishonest with them and was very upset with me. Telling them when I was younger would have resulted in me being disowned at the very worst, and a diagnosis of Asperger's at the very best. I was also very much in self-denial, so I lied to myself as well and thought that I was just a CD. What kind of choice was that?

@Paula - you did your part and told your ex-wife at some point in the relationship, and so did your boyfriend. I think it was very selfish of both your ex-wife and his ex-wife to stay, and lead you (and him) on, and let you think that they're okay being with transgender spouses, and then leave the moment you said transition. Your ex-spouses are the liars and selfish ones here.

[PaulaQ]

@Michelle789 - my ex reacted badly from the moment I told her. Four months later, she had me out the door. She never said she was OK with it. She was far from OK with all this. My BF's situation was a little different.

@LeaP - I'll re-quote something I wrote earlier in the thread:

Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

So I feel I'm making amends to her. Yes, I take some responsibility for what happened. Quite a bit, thus the amends. I wasn't honest with her up front. Nor was I honest with myself, my sponsor, my therapist - I wasn't honest with anyone. There are a lot of pretty good reasons that I wasn't honest - this game is not a fair one. But nevertheless, I take responsibility for not dealing with this stuff earlier. I had engaged in a program of self-truth and honesty, and I failed to act according to it, much to both of our detriment. If I had, she'd never have dated me because I'd have transitioned back then.

It's strange, though, to read suggestions about how much I should've trusted her to work this out, when:
1. She felt this was all about her - something happening to her. Me? I was just part of the problem.
2. She felt I didn't love her enough. Oh puh-lease.
3. In general, she's shown absolutely ZERO concern for what happens to me through all of this. I mean, we were together for 20 years. I've made sure she was well supported through the entire time - I want her to be OK. (For example, I'll continue to pay her spousal support even if she remarries - I didn't have to do that, but I won't hold her future happiness hostage.) But if I died the day after I sent her the last check, she wouldn't care, other than to feel badly for our kids.

Getting back to one of my earlier points, you need to be aware of where engaging in that analysis amounts to continuing the relationship.

Tell me something I don't already know. Yeah, I'm trying to finish up our last piece of business, but it's a pain, and doing it totally sucks. After that, I really don't want anything else to do with her. I don't seem to be able to stop caring about her, at least not completely, and that makes me vulnerable to her. Believe me, she can be quite cruel about exploiting that. Really, all I can do is get this over with, and hope she'll just leave me alone. My obligation to her doesn't end for another 4 1/2 years, unfortunately. BTW, I don't even expect anything from her other than this behavior. It just isn't going to happen.

I am tired of the fact that apparently to most people's minds - and definitely to hers - I am the villain in all of this, just because I am trans. Nothing I do or say seems to change this view. Just nothing.

Again - if this were just about my relationship with her, that would be one thing. But I've seen this pattern repeated dozens of times now with other trans* who I know personally. Sure, sometimes people make it work out. Having watched some of those relationships, I'm not even sure if those folks are always the lucky ones. I see the same thing happen with younger trans* and their parents. (Often older trans* too - but sad as that is, it isn't quite as impactful as someone being thrown out of their home to the streets, which is sometimes the situation for younger folks.)

[LeaP]

I'm as subject to the problem as you are, Paula. Believe me. But I understand where the reaction comes from. I also think the experience should inform anyone as to the realities of how trans people are viewed and talked about behind their backs, whatever is said to them face-to-face. There is no understanding of or sympathy for this condition in our culture. Spouses often feel betrayed and angry when their husband or wife gets sick and dies, too. The difference is that getting past that is much easier. She may be no more capable of moving quickly past her emotions and reactions then you were able to transition decades ago. As difficult as it is, I think the burden is on us to understand them more so than the other way around. After all, we have a great deal of experience in the difficulties of getting past expectations and convention.