If you are going to use the words . . . then own them.

[ReineD]

I don't think we can compare a spousal relationship with everyone else either. Here's an analogy:

If your wife had had a baby before she met you and had put it up for adoption, would you be upset if she had never told you? You can compare this to a CDer who used to CD during his teenage years, stopped, and never told his wife.

But then if the wife re-established a relationship with the child; if, with the adoptive parents' blessing, she spent regular time with the child (several times per week) but hid her whereabouts from you for years and years, spent money on the child, looked forward to you going away on trips so that she could see her child and relished every moment when you were gone, etc, how would you feel?

I think it is a rare person who would not feel betrayed, who would not wonder why his wife did not trust him with that information and why she had been so afraid to say something, who would not wonder if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, and who would not question the very foundational trust of their marriage.

[Donnagirl]

Hey Isha,

I can only agree.... My husky (with a little German shepherd mixed in) has all the obedience skills of a petulant toddler... If she gets away, I've learnt to just let her be... She comes home when she gets hungry!!!

As for the tell / don't tell, honesty vs dishonesty... Well I can't really talk. I'm just home from a housewarming party. Every intention to boy mode it, but by midnight and two bottles of wine later, I'm in a frock!!! Apparently people get a little disappointed if Donna doesn't make an appearance. But that's the result of everyone knowing.

[flatlander_48]

There are many shades and gradients to the transgender spectrum. We all have our own motivations and derive different things from what we do. Everyone's situation is unique. There is no One Size Fits All. For some, keeping their private lives private may be a much more useful path than outing themselves. We can't answer that for anyone other than ourselves. To attempt to do so would be ludicrous.

[SharonDenise]

I came out to my wife while we were still dating. I knew that cross dressing was such a part of me that I would not be able to walk away from it. Fortunately, she gave me her support and her pink baby doll pajamas. She alone shared my secret for 40+ years until she died last year. Since then, I have told a couple of others including my oldest daughter. I didn't want her wondering why my closet and drawers were full of woman's clothing in case she ever had to go through them. I have yet to tell my other daughter. I have also recently joined Chi Chapter of Chicago and have enjoyed going to their meetings and events. Its fun getting dressed up and finally having a place to go. As far as telling the world, we can't all be Ellen DeGeneres and proudly proclaim who we are. She and a few others are in unique positions to proudly proclaim their positions and be lauded for it. The rest of us have to fear how this will affect us if we are found out. In some middle Eastern countries, I speculate that we would be put to death. Yeah for living in America!

[Valerie Louise]

Isha -
I'm former military also, Naval Officer in nuke boats. Integrity was everything there because your life, and everyone else's on the boat, depended on it. You were SF as I recall, so same deal - it sets a personal standard.
My opinion is that in this situation, only one person can assess whether you have crossed some ethical line of honesty - you. In my case, I waited too long to tell my SO, and admit that in that former period, I was lying to her, and my personal assessment of my actions is that I was wrong in not giving her the option earlier to bale.
I see no reason to tell anyone else, and yup, my assessment of that is that I am lying to them.
Lots of reasons why I allow myself this transgression.
However, these assessments are limited to one person ... me. Calling someone else out on this, when you do not know the name of their dog or the make of their car ... nope, that is not allowed. This is a support site for a lot of people that are in serious pain. Dumping on them is outrageous.
About a year ago I defended a gurl that was getting pummeled on this site for not being sensitive to his SO ... so I got pummeled as well.
The "pummelee" thanked me and that was the end of it.
But wow ... imagine this. We are on a site for folks that are in constant fear of being negatively judged ... and someone HERE judges them?
I have to say it amazes me when I see it and it limits the amount of posting I do here. You drew me out. Well done.

Oh, and yes, I would say you have more courage than I do in this area.

[Teresa]

Isha,
I feel the honesty issue hinges on the type of CDer you are ! The forum has certainly shown me that it's not a straight foward issue of just wanting to dress up.
If you're the type that just love wearing the clothes in private, maybe the need is not as strong to come out, why upset other people over an enjoyable hobby !!
In my case it started at about 8-9 years and was sexual from the start, I desperately wanted to share it with a female and that basic feeling has never gone away, it eats at you every day without a break ! So in my forties the pressure was too much, I had to open up to my wife and tell her but she listened and accepted so much but refused to be part of it . Eventually I went into a downward spiral of rejection and not feeling loved, almost ending in suicde !
Now in my sixties the way forward for me is to be openly honest because I've reached a mental block with my CDing , the only way out of it is to stop hiding, with the associated lies and deceit that go with it ! But it's not going well and after all these years what real harm can it now do ?

I do find it perplexing when members preach open honesty, holding nothing back ! Telling your partner despite the dressing that the man is still there to love and care of them ! All that is fine if the partner wants to hear it and responds in a favourable way !

Isha no one likes to resort to lies and deceit but sometimes there isn't a choice ! Despite it making you mentally or physically ill !!

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks much for your replies and comments. Before I begin with as Isabella says "counterpoint" , I want to state, I am not saying your opinion doesn't count, I am right or you are wrong . . . there is just diametrically opposing opinions and this is my take on it. So to the counterpoint.

Isha, your comparison of telling an SO vs the world at large simply doesn't work. All the arguing here is about telling one's SO. That is special, unique, and incomparable case. My brother, butcher nor barber needs to know . . .

. . . I'd agree with Jennifer that it's a completely different thing to share your complete self with an SO, and revealing yourself to the world at large. Yes, in the spirit of doing something that's beneficial in the long run for all of us TG folk, we should out ourselves to the world. The problem is that, for most of us, doing this would have significant negative impacts on our life -- it could jeopardize our standing in our communities and neighbourhoods, restrict our ability to make a living, etc. But revealing to an SO (and even family members) is, in my opinion, something that's important for our mental health and self-acceptance . . . Can't wait for the counterpoint...

I don't think we can compare a spousal relationship with everyone else either.

Jenn, Reine, Isabella,

You missed the point of my post. I do not argue for one second that a relationship with an SO is very different than other relationships. If a CDer chooses to disclose to their SO for whatever reason (a need, caught) that is their choice. My point is that many who have chosen this road are the first to raise the "You must do this banner" and to not do so makes you a "coward, liar, deceitful". If you are going to tell someone they are a liar or deceitful because they choose not disclose you can't say on one hand when it comes to an "admission of fact (I like to dress in women's clothing)" . . . it is a lie when it is your SO but it is not when it comes to family and friends because they don't have a need to know. I have no issue with someone saying "Hey, you know I told my SO and it was the most liberating thing in my life and now we are in a good place but that is me and your circumstances may be different from mine" . . . which is different from "What you need to do is tell your wife because if you don't you are a liar and a coward"

... I agree it's not fair to criticize others who are just trying to balance their lives (if that's what you are saying? If not set me straight). I think like any group with a single thing in common, we should really try to understand we have our own individual paths to follow, that are just as diverse as all other humans are. We share another tendency with humankind at large in that we will gravitate to the idea that what works for us, should work for everyone else, and may even get frustrated when they are less than receptive to the idea. Or that we know what is best for the "hive".

Hi Julie,

That is exactly what I was trying to say. To each their own and don't judge a person's decision based on your own decisions. Advise yes, judge no.

... But then life is risk. If you want to be coldly analytical, this is all an imprecise game of risk management. Weighing the risk of voluntarily sharing or concealment is a personal assessment of that risk. If one deems the likely reaction to be seriously adverse, the personal emotional burden bearable and the risk of discovery relatively low, then one may reasonably choose nondisclosure as the course that seems to have the lowest potential cost. Time will tell.

Hi Kim,

I agree if we remove the emotional aspect of the relationship, some will go into cold analytical mode of risk management. This illustrates nicely that for each of us the decision to disclose or not is based not on what one person believes is right or wrong but how it will affect us in the long run. Is it right? Perhaps not but then again perhaps it is the best way forward.

Isha,
I feel the honesty issue hinges on the type of CDer you are ! The forum has certainly shown me that it's not a straight foward issue of just wanting to dress up.
If you're the type that just love wearing the clothes in private, maybe the need is not as strong to come out, why upset other people over an enjoyable hobby !!

Hi Teresa,

I agree on this point. I really depends where you are in your dressing. If it is something that is becoming pervasive to the point where it is affecting your ability to function either at home or the world writ large then perhaps the talk is the best way forward. However, if you function normally, are a decent, caring and supportive person then compartmentalization may be best suited at that juncture.

Final point . . . all relationships are not equal. For each of us who have hit the jackpot when it comes to a fully supportive spouse, I suspect there are several who love their SO unconditionally and also know that disclosure will destroy the relationship beyond repair. They are not being cowards or liars just pragmatic within the confines of their relationship but they go on to be a wonderful and caring spouse/partner.

Hugs

Isha

[Caden Lane]

Hello Isha,

I recently touched on this loosely on my blog. It was about being authentic to who you are. After a while those lies by omission mount up on the person telling them. In a perfect world, I would tell my family members. But it would redefine my family dynamic, turning me into a black sheep. I often advocate telling spouses or potential spouses; however I try to never throw it down as a dare or gauntlet. I try to make sure the potential consequences are well known. I tend to look at it as more of helping a sister make an educated decision.

But I feel our spouse above anyone else deserves and needs to know; it is their world dynamic that will be changed the most.

Ever & Always,
Caden Lane

[Isabella Ross]

Isha. Thank you for the clarification. In this, we are on the same page. Advise, but don't judge. Probably should have had that second cup of coffee before I read your post...

[ReineD]

. . . which is different from "What you need to do is tell your wife because if you don't you are a liar and a coward"

I agree with you there. Defining someone as a coward does no one any good. Deciding to not tell may be motivated by prudence (is there an existing lack of trust in the relationship … will the spouse or girlfriend tell everyone else when they break up), fear (a very human emotion that everyone experiences), guilt, and shame among other things. But is this person lying? Lying is a harsh word. It implies engaging in an action for one's own gain, despite potential negative effects to the person being lied to.

But, would you say that the wife in my example above who does not disclose having had a child prior to her marriage and further who does not disclose an ongoing relationship with this child and how much she looks forward to her husband going away so she can see the child, who does not disclose taking money from the family budget for gifts, outings, maybe even help with college, a liar? Is she in fact lying and would her husband suffer from negative effects if he were to find out fully about the situation after his wife's passing? Would he suffer from betrayal, wondering why his wife didn't trust him with the information, wondering if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, maybe even wondering how much is wife loved him?

What do you think?

[Bria]

Wow, Reine, you sure know how upset our complacent apple cart! You are quite right to bring up such an analogy as it well frames the dilemma faced by many of us regarding events in our past as well as our present.

I guess I don't see it as lying when we don't say anything, lying is saying something that isn't true. However, should we volunteer every thing that we ever did or thought, that is another issue that doesn't have one right answer.

Hugs, Bria

[Tiffany Jane]

Is it safe to come out now? Isha, thanks for reminding us all to be ourselves, without implying others should or would be able to travel upon paths that their lives may not have led them to or down yet.

[Katey888]

Hi... my name's not really Katey and I'm a liar. I haven't lied for about 2 hours...

I've lied and omitted in my personal life and I've been paid to lie and omit professionally in every job I've had. I know for a fact my dear wife is a liar, and I love her no less for that fact. My - somewhat cynical- view of humanity is that we all have the propensity for falsehood and that there are few remaining candidates for sainthood, certainly not hanging around here...

Thanks for restating reality again Isha - seems like having a husky moment is good for creativity.

To those of you who believe nothing is hidden between you and you partner, please do appreciate that the way many others have right up to the point something pops out unexpectedly... And if it never does, then think yourself lucky... or just that they're a good liar too...

I don't have to challenge anyone who thinks me a coward - I'm a grown-up and I have to live with my actions and their consequences, and I do and will. I truly feel for the many here who have no choice about telling, and perhaps there's a twist of envy towards those who don't have to - that would be a human reaction (rather than saintly...) but I do think it's irresponsible and unsophisticated to peddle one agenda as being the 'right' one when clearly, every situation is unique.

A respected British politician of the early 1900s - Nye Bevan - used to say in conversation: "I'll tell you my truth and then you can tell me yours..."

Katey x

[Angie G]

If one tells someone that he isn't a crossdresser but is a liar. If one just never tell someone what they do is not lying. I came out to my wife and no one else. Why do others need to know all my matters.
Angie

[ReineD]

Katey, "lying" is a word, a label that admittedly has negative connotations. No one wants to be called a liar. Other, more forgiving words are "non-disclosure", or "privacy" even. Those other words are good too, since there are many motives, in many different situations, for not disclosing the entire truth.

I'm not wanting to debate what to call it, nor am I wondering about the motives behind the non-disclosure. I'm rather interested in knowing how you, Isha, and others would feel if you were the husband in my scenario posts #26 and #35. It's more about how your wife's actions/decisions might affect you if you were the husband.

Why is no one answering this question?

[Leah Lynn]

My late wife and I had soooo many conversations in the 39 years we knew each other. Many, many times there were little implications that I was different. I finally told her everything about my wanting to be female all my life, following a Halloween party we held. So many years of hiding, denying myself, that one night of being dressed burst the dam. It took a little while for her to digest that. Though she was supportive of LGBT, it was quite different, it being her husband. In the end she became supportive, and we had a few evenings out as the girls. I did not tell her a lie. Or did I? I tried desperately to be a man for many years.

Had I told her everything early on, perhaps I could have transitioned years ago. I'll never know the answer to that, so I won't ponder it, but perhaps it could save someone else a lifetime of living a lie. Tell / Don't tell; it has to be the decision of of the individual, depending on SO's beliefs, social acceptance, attitude, whatever else will influence their acceptance / rejection. I feel it is a very private decision to make.

Leah

[Marcelle]

. . . But, would you say that the wife in my example above who does not disclose having had a child prior to her marriage and further who does not disclose an ongoing relationship with this child and how much she looks forward to her husband going away so she can see the child, who does not disclose taking money from the family budget for gifts, outings, maybe even help with college, a liar? Is she in fact lying and would her husband suffer from negative effects if he were to find out fully about the situation after his wife's passing? Would he suffer from betrayal, wondering why his wife didn't trust him with the information, wondering if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, maybe even wondering how much is wife loved him?

What do you think?

Hi Reine,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner . . . fighting the collapse of my hard drive on my desk top so I had to move to my laptop. Good question. I suppose if it were me and I saw money disappearing from our account at a rapid rate I would ask what that is all about at which case I think my wife would have to come up with a good story or be busted. So this would be like the CDer who tries to hide it and can't because it is so central to his life that he can't live without it and gets busted. Back to your scenario . . . if I found out due to the withdrawal of cash I would be there to support her and this is not hindsight because she is supporting me in my TG journey but because it is obviously a big part of her life and important to her. I would encourage her to cultivate her relationship and help her if she asked. I would not think she was a liar but might ask why she was afraid to tell me. I would not feel betrayed because that is part of her life which she felt she needed to compartmentalize for whatever reason.

Now if I found out say after she passed away, completely out of the blue with no inkling of another child and they reached out to me. I might be a bit taken aback and to be honest might want some proof if a stranger came up to me and said they were my wife's child and I might wonder why she chose not to tell me. However, it is her life. The child poses no threat to me, my relationship or my love for my wife . . . she does not all of a sudden become a bad person because there is something I never knew about her. She merely becomes the same "light of my life" with a child I never knew about . . . that's all. I could not feel betrayed as she has done nothing to betray my trust.

In the end keeping something personal to yourself within a relationship is not betrayal of trust unless it harms the core of relationship. So if my wife cheated on me with my best friend in a moment of poor indiscretion and I found out, would I forgive her? I would like to think so and I would work with her to make our relationship strong again. If she continued to cheat then that is a betrayal of trust and I would call the relationship at that point.

For a man who CDs, does nothing to harm his family (e.g., doesn't spend the family fortune), is a decent and caring partner, supportive husband and father . . . his dressing does not change that . . . he is the same person. If the SO finds out and cannot abide by that and somehow believes the person she loved is now amoral and less than a man because she has bought into what society deems as masculine well then perhaps it is time to walk a separate path. However, she is condemning a person based on presentation and not judging the core of the person (good and decent) but again that is her choice. I get that if a wife finds out and wants her husband to either not continue or stay in the house and all of a sudden finds out he is not abiding by the mutually agreed upon accord then yes . . . that can be construed as betrayal of trust because something was mutually agreed upon and broken by one party.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Reine, you know I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and perspectives here, but that's all any of us can offer - and they're all largely based on personal experience and beliefs. You can't reason against beliefs, but you can construct a hypothetical situation to demonstrate pretty much anything you want to. I'd rather refer to personal experience which has served to shape my beliefs...

My first long term partner lied about a previous relationship (that it had ended and it had not) and my wife did the same as well as portraying aspects of her sexuality in a more favourable light (read into that what you will). It doesn't change the way I feel about her, just what I know. If you're trying to demonstrate there's some consistency in human reactions I think that's flawed. There are no standards for ethical behaviour any more - reactions can be wildly different and unique and generally are. We can choose to be more or less affected by others actions but our circumstances and beliefs also impact that. I think Isha is just trying to remind everyone that few people here are wearing a clean shirt ( or blouse...) and that sanctimoniousness of the like often associated with ex-smokers is at least unbecoming and can be irresponsible. But we're a public forum... joining and participation standards struggle to be any lower, much as I like most of what goes on here...

As to answering your ethical behavioural question - don't see the relevance... hypothetical and circumstantial at best.. sorry...

Katey x

[ReineD]

It's true that I'm coming at this from the perspective of a supportive partner; I don't think that my SO is somehow "bad" for wanting to express herself. This is why I would have been upset had s/he not disclosed.

I think that a husband's overall behavior has more weight for most GGs than just the fact that he crossdresses. For example, when dressed is s/he the same person? Does s/he respect his/her wife? For more detailed examples of things that can go wrong, have a look here.

But, if a husband does Not behave in the negative ways described in some of those posts, if he is still a caring spouse and doesn't obsess about it when not CDing, if he is present in his marriage while CDed and in guy mode, then I think that (many? most?) wives would be OK with it (look here as well). She may not embrace it totally right away … it may take a while for a wife to learn about this, to rid herself of any preconceived ideas and discover what it means to her husband specifically, it does take a lot of communication, and also wives do vary in their levels of comfort with going out and telling a lot of people (some may prefer to just keep it at home if they believe the CDing is stigmatized in their neck of the woods), but we do have tons of evidence in this forum that lots of wives support this.

It is tricky to decide whether or not to tell and navigating the waters after telling needs to be done with great sensitivity and care. But if a wife finds out other than having had her husband tell her, she will feel lied to even if this was not her husband's intent. I would have. And THAT'S the focus here … how will she FEEL when she finds out, not what word you might use to describe his non-disclosure.

Oh … and I would never call a non-disclosing CDer a liar or a coward. Never. On the other hand, I would feel as if I were lying to my husband, if I were not disclosing the fact that I loved a child that I had given up for adoption and this child was now a part of my life.

What can I say.

[Katie Russell]

Firstly I'll answer Reine's question. No it wouldn't worry me at all and I'd like to think that I'd treat any child of my SO as a member of the family.

Secondly I don't get this need to have to tell your SO. I believe it is a matter of personal choice and nobody here has the right to tell you otherwise. You are the best person to decide when and if to tell. Yes there is a risk that you are found out and the consequences could be dire but there are also risks in telling. Can you ever 100% know your SO? If you believe that you do then maybe you are naive. I just read a thread from a member who posted that his ex had just called off the engagement and told all his friends about his crossdressing. He's devastated. In the UK 42% of marriages end in divorce - the person you loved without question suddenly isn't the right one. Not what you signed up for at the time. People change for better or for worse.There are plenty of bitter ex-spouses out there!

Maybe this is a bit of a cynical view or maybe it's just realistic. Letting your head rule your heart maybe the right call. Weigh up the risks and decide what is best for you.

For the record I've been married for over 22 years and my SO found out 2 years ago. I had no intention of telling my SO. It had been something that I'd kept to myself for many years and something I didn't feel I needed to share. That may have changed over time but at the time I felt it was right. I love my wife and I don't think it made me a bad person for not telling. I believe that I continue to be a good husband and father.

I only found this site after my SO found out in my search for answers. Had I found it before then maybe I would have felt some pressure to disclose. We need a balanced view here and nobody should be cajoled into doing something they don't feel right about doing. Peer pressure can be a dangerous thing.

I know from experience what we write in our posts can be mis-inturpruted. I have found that other members have been offended by my comments and I have had to explain to them personally what I actually meant. It is always difficult to express in so few word how you actually feel. I have never intended to offend anyone and have always tried to choose my words carefully. Some people tend to be quick in handing out the advice without actually taking any responsibility for the consequences. Feel free to express what worked for you but don't try an force it on anyone else.

Katie

[NicoleScott]

. . . if you are going espouse honesty and integrity as buzz words in your life, then commence your own personal allocution to the world writ large before passing judgment on others. However, even doing so would not give you the moral high ground over those who have not come out to everyone . . . it is only a choice you made and not necessarily the choice required of others.

Isha, my first impression of your post/rant was that I'm a hypocrite if I'm out to my wife (true) but not my family/friends/co-corkers (also true). But I read on...
My next impression is that my first impression isn't right, that what you mean is members shouldn't encourage others to come out to anyone unless/until they come out to everyone. But I read on....
Then your last comments (quoted) undo everything you said earlier. So I guess all I'm left with is that you need to cut down on Red Bull before your Saturday morning logon to the forum. haha

[Jason+]

Why is no one answering this question?

Hypothetical or not, both my wife and I each brought 2 children each from our first marriages. We both love and treat all of them as our own. To learn after her death of a third that was kept from me would probably hurt. I would wonder why such an important part of her had been kept completely from me. Even if I accept the tenet that the two are a little apple and orange comparison the underlying question of "how would you feel" is still valid.

I think the difficulty in answering the question is that a lot of people would feel hurt about the omission and to admit that would bring with it guilt about potentially doing the same.

[donnalee]

This reminds me of the Lenny Bruce line "I tell my wife everything - because I want to hurt her!".

Reticence in coming out may be the best thing for a given relationship. How you live your life is your own business unless it hurts me or mine and I wouldn't presume to comment.

Renee, that' an interesting example you gave because that actually happened to me. As my SO lay dying in a hospital, her daughter from a previous marriage told me that she had a half sister living in Japan. I think my SO was talking about her own sister and her daughter may have misunderstood, but the possibility still exists. I gave this some thought and came to the conclusion that this would have made absolutely no difference in our relationship, other than making provisions as necessary if there were personal or financial needs. Whatever went to make her the person I loved was OK; she was the product of those experiences and would not have been the same person without them.

[AngelaYVR]

I like Raine's argument except that this isn't the beginning of the 20th century any more and a child out of wedlock will not bring the same clucking of tongues as a husband in knickers will should it all go pear shaped. If I had told wife #1, it would have gone very, very badly, I know that for a fact.

[Marcelle]

... My next impression is that my first impression isn't right, that what you mean is members shouldn't encourage others to come out to anyone unless/until they come out to everyone. ....So I guess all I'm left with is that you need to cut down on Red Bull before your Saturday morning logon to the forum. haha

Hi Nicole,

LOL ... nope your second impression was the correct one. Merely wanted to point out that if someone is going to harp on a member for not telling their SO because they are being dishonest then look to your backyard first to see how honest you are in your life and not just with your SO. If you have told your SO and are happy with whatever arrangement you have achieved, and offer balanced advice based on personal experience . . . no concerns.

Hugs

Isha