Maybe I'm just nts

[Amelia Coffey]

I have been a member here for several years but seldom post. In fact, this may be the
first time I have started a thread.

In another unrelated thread another member mentioned the possibility of the concept
of male lesbian. It may well have been said tongue-in-cheek. Some time ago, another
member said the same thing and received some less than courteous responses. I must
admit it does seem strange. However, after thinking about it, it doesn't impossible.

I have read stories where it seems very difficult for a person to get a doctors
recommendation for SRS if they are not gay, probably not impossible just more difficult.
Apparently, a heterosexual male having SRS might create a lesbian. Just a thought.

I have no trouble accepting that gender and sex are two separate things. So, I wonder
if being homosexual is based on our gender or on our sex. I tend to lean toward sex.
Some of us accept that we have a distinct female gender but have a definite male body.
If one has female gender but desires sex with only women, does that make that person
homosexual? It would be much simpler if everyone had sex and gender that went together,
that is, male gender for men and female gender for women. Unfortunately, it just isn't
quite that simple.

So, just wondering, why can't there be such a thing as a male lesbian?

Amy

[Jenniferathome]

Amelia, I think this is just a cross dresser 's justification that they are not "gay" when dressed. Unless your gender identity is female, you can not be a lesbian.

[Sierra_juliette]

In one of my psychology classes, Human Sexuality I was able to attend a seminar/discussion with a wonderful woman who was born male. She very much loves women, has not had a relationship since her reassignment but is not at all attracte to men.

The wonderful thing about this seminar is we could ask ANYTHING and she was willing to answer candidly. I think that was one of the first questions that got asked 'so are you a lesbian now?'
Her answer was 'Well I guess so'

I thought it was a ridiculous question at first but the more time that has passed since then I realize that is probably the first thing most of society would question.

[Tiffany Jane]

I would agree with Jennifer, the mind has to accept everything it has learned a long the course of our lives and itemize, organize, and mostly understand what we have experienced, learned, and come to some subconscious conclusion what to do with everything we absorb. It is the conscious state that this subconscious noise interferes. It is just sitting in our minds; unknown, unfamiliar, unclassified, but very much part of who we are. It takes a lot to understand who we are when trying to keep oneself in one of two gender boxes. I keep two feet in the male box but like to dip a toe over to the other side from time to time. Mostly when I feel this voice in me screaming to be expressed.

I have used the term male lesbian to describe/convince myself and my wife that I was not desiring to be with men. It seemed like the easiest explanation to describe the sexual desire side of what crossdressing presents for me. Actually what I said was it was like a lesbian stuck in a male's body, as I have no desire to transition, but the same premise. Either way it is extremely difficult to come to terms with something as it comes and goes, carefully progresses, or just seems to be prying itself out of ones body. Since then we have accepted this part of my being. This softer, prettier, emotional part of me that most of the time leaves me feeling whole but suddenly, way out of balance.

I also believe that as broad as the gender spectrum is becoming, an understanding of one's sensuality is just as important. There are many things that we associate with sexuality when it may only be an expression of sensual desires.

[Bootsiegalore]

I just saw an Eddie Izzard interview and he called himself a wanna be lesbian.... I think he was just on the view recently.

[AllieSF]

I have read stories where it seems very difficult for a person to get a doctors
recommendation for SRS if they are not gay, probably not impossible just more difficult.
Apparently, a heterosexual male having SRS might create a lesbian. Just a thought.

I will let others discuss the question of being lesbian, gay or straight. I have to say that I have never read, nor heard, any stories regarding the denial of SRS based on sexual orientation/preferences. Where did you read this? As far as I know, if this even happens, it has to be so rare. But who knows what goes on in this strange world that surrounds us?

[Leah Lynn]

My therapist and I discussed my sexual preferences at length, as I'm sure most others have. She wanted me, yes ME, to understand where I was at on that spectrum. I have never heard of anyone being denied a letter due to sexual preference.


Leah

[Susi]

I think it's a question of language in some way. I've often thought of myself as a lesbian male, and I think sometimes the sex with my wife is near to a lesbian relationship. There's a novel by a spanish writer (José Luis Sampedro) called "El amante lesbiano" ("The lesbian lover", with the words indicating masculine gender), starring a man who feels like a woman and who likes women.

[Karen62]

Amelia, I think this is just a cross dresser 's justification that they are not "gay" when dressed. Unless your gender identity is female, you can not be a lesbian.

Jennifer, what if the person in question is not a CD, but instead a pre-op transwoman, who has never had sexual interest in men? Is this still a I-am-not-gay denial justification? While I understand your technical point that you can't be lesbian if your identity is male, I don't think the world is always so black-or-white as your declaration implies. I think there are many shades of gray in-between.

I do hear conflicting stories about how HRT can affect one's sexual preference. Many say it is not affected and your original orientation will remain unchanged, but some transwomen have reported either they become more open to bi-sexualuty or even converted to having interest in men while on HRT, but these are anecdotal reports and do not appear to be common (as far as I can tell). Perhaps these people were in denial about their original sexuality prior to HRT, but I really don't know (and perhaps they don't even know!).

The question in the original post was whether there can be such a thing as a male lesbian? If you're saying absolutely in all cases no, then I think you wrong. If you're saying it depends upon whether your internal gender identity is female, then your caveat actually didn't directly address the full question.

Just a thought...

Karen

[AngelaYVR]

I used to work with a TS woman transitioning who was in a relationship with a TS man also transitioning. I'll let you come up with the terms for that one.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer, what if the person in question is not a CD, but instead a pre-op transwoman, who has never had sexual interest in men? ...

Karen, I wrote "Unless your gender identity is female." Which means, of course, that the person is physically male but identifies as female. You even quoted my quote. That precisely covers your question. I'll state again there is no such thing as a "male lesbian" for a male who identifies as male. That phrase is just a beard.

[Amelia Coffey]

Amelia, I think this is just a cross dresser 's justification that they are not "gay" when dressed. Unless your gender identity is female, you can not be a lesbian.

Seems like we said almost the same thing. I think the gender vs sex issue comes up.
Is it not likely that someone could have a gender identity being feminine and sexual identity of male?

It seems to me that this would identify a pre or non op m-f transsexual.
This person could be gay or straight.

Amy

[Amelia Coffey]

I will let others discuss the question of being lesbian, gay or straight. I have to say that I have never read, nor heard, any stories regarding the denial of SRS based on sexual orientation/preferences. Where did you read this? As far as I know, if this even happens, it has to be so rare. But who knows what goes on in this strange world that surrounds us?

I did not say I had read where anyone was denied SRS, just made it more difficult.
I did not find the articles so profound that I felt a need to save them for future record.

Amy

[arbon]

Years ago it was harder for hrt and srs if you were not attracted to men. In most places I don't think orientation is really an issue anymore.

Are there male lesbians? I have a hard time with the idea if you have a penis and being with women. I have a hard time understanding my own orientation too as a pre-op who is mostly sexually attracted to men but I still have a penis, but have also found myself able to become very attracted and emotionally attached to women....it gets very mind boggling. But I don't say I am a lesbian, or hetrosexual, and I am not even sure if bi sexual is right because the attractions are different - with men it is a very sexual attraction, with the one woman I have been attracted to it was much more emotional and intimate, which I don't know if I could have with a man.

[Sarasometimes]

This subject has come up in my therapy long ago. I started with a new therapist and she asked if I thought there was ANY interest in transitioning. My reply was, I don't feel ANY desire to since I like my equipment and that I have NO attraction toward men. She said well of course sexual attraction is independent of gender identity and expression. I replied well if i ever were to feel otherwise about transitioning, I would become a trans-lesbian. She said that I would have a lot of company.
So if she was right there are many TS lesbians.

[LilSissyStevie]

The answer is that "male lesbian" is an identity and you can adopt any identity that makes sense to you. Identities are subjective. You don't need anyone's permission to have one and it doesn't have to make sense to others. Of course, you may want others to buy into your identity but that's a different matter. Curiously, we accept some identities as sacrosanct and others are dismissed for arbitrary reasons. In one case we say identity is the deciding factor and genetics and morphology are secondary while in another case we say that morphology and genetics invalidate the identity.

I think it's kind of fun to ask unanswerable questions about gender and sexuality. For example: If lesbians use phallic shaped prosthetics, are they still "true" lesbians? How many homosexual experiences do you have to engage in before you are "officially" gay? 1? 17? Is it gay for a man to get pegged by a woman. If you are romantically attracted to women but sexually attracted to men, are you straight, gay or bi? If you are male and exclusively have have sex with women but never use your penis in a sex act, is it still "straight" sex? I once read a tract written by a Baptist preacher from around the turn of the last century. He argued that any sex act that was not penis-in-vagina (PIV) was a homosexual act. So oral sex, masturbation (mutual or solo), anal sex, etc. were essentially homosexual acts even if they were engaged in between a man and a woman because those are things homosexuals do but they can't do PIV sex. The thing is, I couldn't prove he was wrong without making the same kind of arbitrary assumptions he made. The best answer is that it was gay for him but not for me.

[DorothyElizabeth]

I have long said in humor, "I lived through the nineties and found the woman in me. She's a lesbian."


But to be serious, I have always understood sex to be defined by physiology, and gender to be by psychology. In other words, what sex a person is becomes defined by his or her genitals, but his or her gender is defined by how he or she perceives and wishes to present.

[Lynn Marie]

I've always thought it amazing that just about every person I've known who felt so much that they were a girl in a boy's body and have gone on hormones, got boob jobs, and have fully transitioned all seem to be Lesbians and prefer girls. I'm just a silly assed average cross dresser and I've always preferred girls too! Just sort of makes me wonder sometimes.

[kimdl93]

As has been said enough times to be a clique, gender and sexual preference are two different things. its not at all surprising to me that most CDrs are heterosexual because one set of brain wiring is associated with gender identity, independent of external genitalia, and a different set of circuitry that is involved in determining sexual preference. So, while we may identify as female to a lesser or greater extent, our sexual preference follows its own track.

Transitioned fully, middle path or not, that other wiring, will remain intact.

[docrobbysherry]

It's all semantics isn't it? If u buy that there is such a thing as a male female? Then, male lesbians not much of a stretch is it?

On the other hand? If u believe there r no such things as male females, then a male lesbian sounds just as ridiculous!