Am I the only one around here who...

[flatlander_48]

I understand your point within this context, but it kind of misses the entire issue of this being a "trans issue". This is an aspect of my person-hood. It is not like wanting to install a 70 inch TV in a man-cave when household expenses are tight, or demanding that my partner always want to do the same activities as I do.

The point is that demands, by either party, are not the best. My guess is that in many cases, we (crossdressers) don't do a very good job of explaining how all this sits for us. Note that this is NOT attempting to explain the WHY behind what we do. It is possible that the shame and guilt that we sometimes feel, to say nothing of denial, may prevent us from being candid about this activity that we do. Fear of potential outcomes can also drive us to be less than candid.

The other point is that, transgender issues aside, we're talking about human relationships. Often we have some very rigid ideas around how those relationships should be structured and where the lines are. It's obvious that learning your partner is into an activity that can have far-reaching consequences for the lives of all concerned is often an upsetting experience. But, acceptance shouldn't be automatic; and neither should rejection.

I think the statement "I married a man, not a woman." is a bit lame. If you broaden that out, did any of us set out to marry a cancer patient, a schizophrenic, a stroke victim, etc.? Most often, no. If those things happen usually we try to deal with them as best we can. For a few, those kinds of circumstances can overwhelm a relationship. But, in part, a major difference is that we can see the result of having those medical issues. While you can see the external veneer the we crossdressers put forth, much of the actual shift happens internally. That is probably very disconcerting for our partners.

[Taylor Ray]

Actually, as I said, I include every gender variant on this forum under the umbrella term "transgender." (BTW, I don't care that you don't like this - so don't bother arguing with me about it.) I imply nothing from that term, other than your gender expression or identity do not match your primary and secondary biological sex characteristics. You may identify as a CD, or gender fluid, or gender queer, or in any number of other ways, including transsexual.

This might be the clearest and best expressed argument I have heard that points towards including cross-dressers under the "transgender spectrum". It is really interesting when we examine our own journeys through this process. Perhaps we all have been guilty of judging different "types" of gender-variation expressions at some point in our life, no doubt while searching to define ourselves.

For instance, we could say "Well, he is just a degenerate sex-addict that uses women's clothing to get off."

We could also say: "Well, he is a really messed up freak that wants to mutilate his biological body and force others to call him a new name."

Perhaps when we impose a "binary system" onto trans people...i.e. "Well, he is either "just" a CD, OR a "true" transsexual, we are doing a disservice. It's like saying:

"Well, he is "just" a cross-dresser, so it is something we can "talk about" and "compromise" about. Doesn't this invalidate and undermine the variant gender expression?

It almost seems to revolve around the issues of "masculinity" and "femininity". Why are some women "threatened" by men who want to CD? In one of my graduate psychology classes, a women stated:

"Well, I want to be the one that wears the panties."

Not surprisingly, she was very critical of "patriarchy" and "chauvinism" as well, and wanted to put an end to "male dominance" in the culture.

[ReineD]

It almost seems to revolve around the issues of "masculinity" and "femininity". Why are some women "threatened" by men who want to CD? In one of my graduate psychology classes, a women stated:

"Well, I want to be the one that wears the panties."

Not surprisingly, she was very critical of "patriarchy" and "chauvinism" as well, and wanted to put an end to "male dominance" in the culture.

I can't speak for all women, of course, but my sense is that we don't feel threatened, if you mean that a CDer takes away our identity as a woman (if you don't mean this, then what do you mean?).

But, generally hetero women simply are not turned on by femininity (hence the term hetero), which poses a problem when they began a relationship with a person who presented masculine at the beginning. Had the CD been out and proud, this very same woman might have been friends but simply moved on to someone else for a romantic relationship, not because she thinks the CDer is freakish or degenerate (your words), but because there is no basis for romantic attraction.

Also, when a woman says she wants to wear the panties, it means that she wants to be the female partner in an opposite-sex relationship, which makes sense if she is hetero. You mention patriarchy and chauvinism, but please remember that seeking equality legally and in the workforce has nothing to do with sexual attraction between romantic partners in the bedroom.

Last, although there may still be a chunk of people on the religious right who believe that the CDing is degenerate and freakish (your words), there are an increasing number of people who understand that alternate preferences are perfectly OK, even if they're not into it themselves.

[Taylor Ray]

You raise some really great points Reine, but I will off some counter-points for the sake of discussion.

First of all, in my experience "transphobia" is not just limited to a "chunk of people" on the religious right. It is actually very pervasive and quite common in our culture, especially when you are able to gain insight into "how people really think", by talking to all types of people and having multiple experiential encounters.

I agree (as I stated above) that a large percentage of CDs may already be in a relationship when they attempt to reveal this aspect of themselves, and I fully agree that this is unfair to the other partner. In my experience, however, I have expressed this aspect of myself early on in relationships, and the negative responses have been far more encompassing than just "I am not romantically interested or turned on by this". Quite the contrary, the response is usually along the lines of: "There might be something wrong with you and you might need help."

In terms of "who is the female partner in a relationship", I have had similar experiences in intimate relationships with men. Although I was in the "female-passive" role, there was still negative projections towards me when I expressed a desire to CD. Also, why can't a man be in the "Male role" while dressed in women's clothing in a hetero-relationship?

In terms of the experience I had with the woman who stated "I want to be the one who wears the panties", she was not talking about just a role. Our discussion was actually about men who wear panties, and she was stating, more or less, that "the item of clothing called panties is for the woman."

In terms of a woman being threatened by men who CD, I did not mean to imply anything about the woman's own "identity", at least in terms of femininity. But your raise a great question that I am definitely interested in exploring further.

[Jennifer_Ph]

I have wondered the same thing for years. I guess the, "Happy wife, happy life" thing has been ingrained in us. It doesn't matter if the man is happy in the marriage, all that matters is that the woman is. Most sit-coms back that theory up... along with the fact that all men are stupid bumbling idiots who wouldn't remember to breathe if it weren't for their wives.

[PaulaQ]

First of all, in my experience "transphobia" is not just limited to a "chunk of people" on the religious right. It is actually very pervasive and quite common in our culture, especially when you are able to gain insight into "how people really think", by talking to all types of people and having multiple experiential encounters.

I agree. Actually, it's quite common here. Quite a lot of the women who are dealing with the horror of having a trans spouse are suffering from this to one degree or another. The notion that having a trans spouse is "a horror" is good evidence of this. Actually a good number of the CDs here are also, ironically enough, transphobic in their own ways - either with internalized guilt and shame over who they are and their gender expression, or having quite negative attitudes about transsexuals. (Sometimes those are sort of deserved - there have been a number of trans women here on this forum over the years who've been, in my opinion, extremely demeaning to crossdresser identified trans people.)

In terms of the experience I had with the woman who stated "I want to be the one who wears the panties", she was not talking about just a role. Our discussion was actually about men who wear panties, and she was stating, more or less, that "the item of clothing called panties is for the woman."

Funny story - a lot of feminists hate trans people - especially second wave feminists in the 70's. Here's some examples. (Trigger warning - these links contain a lot of transphobic hate.)

http://janiceraymond.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Empire
http://genderidentitywatch.com/
http://theterfs.com/ <- this is a site about TERFs

Google the term "TERF". (It stands for "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.") There are a number of these women alive and well today, doing cheerful, helpful little things like finding stealth trans women in colleges and universities, and outing them, openly harassing trans women in social media, and other really constructive (sarcasm) activities.

In terms of a woman being threatened by men who CD, I did not mean to imply anything about the woman's own "identity", at least in terms of femininity. But your raise a great question that I am definitely interested in exploring further.

There are good reasons for a woman in a relationship with a CD to be insecure about their identity. Many women today, in my opinion, don't really have very strong identities of their own. They have lived under a social structure that is designed to all but eradicate their sense of self. (BTW, there is a fair amount of this that happens to men as well - our society can be very cruel.) Some examples of messages that really hurt women's identities:
- Women can be anything they want to be! Mothers, high power executives, astronauts, anything! So let's put pressure on them to be all of those things, so that surely they will fail.
- But let's make sure that if they do choose a career path, we reduce their pay because of the chance they may one day choose to have a child. Because nothing promotes self-esteem like getting lower pay for the same job as a man gets!
- Let's tell girls "any type of body you have is beautiful", and then spend hundreds of millions of dollars advertising fashions that will never look good on them!
- Let's set standards of beauty for women such that even the most genetically gifted women on earth require plastic surgery, and photo shop tweaking before they are presented to the public as an image of femininity.
- Let's allow some women to be really successful - real role models for young women. And then make sure the only thing young women really get to hear about is Katy Perry.
- Let's encourage women to completely lose their identities in their roles as wives and mothers. Oh - and let's make sure they feel bad for not working, or for not having a super high power career.
- Let's tell women who have high power careers that their families are suffering because of their labors, or let's criticize them for not having a marriage / family at all.

Women get a lot of really awful mixed messages. This crap permeates our culture. It's really sad, and it really does a lot of damage. I think it would be a lot better if women got different messages:
"All women are beautiful."
"All women matter and are important. YOU, as a woman, have a contribution to make."
"Be who you are, not who they tell you that you should be. You know better than they do."
"Learn from women who came before you - but don't let that control you. Choose your own way.

[Mink]

Also, why can't a man be in the "Male role" while dressed in women's clothing in a hetero-relationship?

In terms of the experience I had with the woman who stated "I want to be the one who wears the panties", she was not talking about just a role. Our discussion was actually about men who wear panties, and she was stating, more or less, that "the item of clothing called panties is for the woman.".

I find stuff like this problematic too...

this idea of "i married a man not a woman!" but combined with "you're not a woman you are just a man in a dress!" ... so ... then why CAN'T he just be a dude in a dress?

wearing pink lacy panties doesn't mean you are suddenly not a man or masculine as all heck... in the way you act and look!

just like wearing boring old baggy boxers doesn't make some cute girly girl all that masculine!

picture you this:

a man is so turned on by his GF in her lingerie... but then she says ... hold on... and switches into a pair of boxers (his OR hers!)...

would the man suddenly say ... jeez! now THAT is a turn off! I'm so not attracted to you right now... you look so mannish! I married a WOMAN not a man! you look so dang masculine right now and i'm only attracted to feminine woman..

???

that'd be unheard of

while a guy would probably be MORE digging his lady in lingerie or a sexy dress rather than boxer shorts or a lumberjack look...

I don't think many a guy would turn down the very femme lady when she's donning boyclothes / a "masculine" look

because to me a woman is STILL feminine in manly clothing ... even if she drew on a fake moustache ... even if she had super short hair...

you know?

so why can't women realize that a man is still a man and maybe even a MANLY man ... even in panties or a dress... ? it's so dang weird

cuz lord knows how many women I've read say they thought tim curry was ... even in fishnets / corset / makeup / wig... and while he was very campy and over the top you can't deny he was still a very mannish man!