A question for GG's: "Women in pants aren't crossdressing"

[PaulaQ]

A corollary to this is: "Women don't crossdress."

This is oft repeated here, both by cis women, and some trans identified people. And while I agree, in today's society, that a woman who is wearing pants isn't crossdressing, I wonder if some of the good folks here, both cis and trans, male and female identified, could help explain the products offered by this company to me:

Saint Harridan - Masculine clothing and accessories
for women and transmen

BTW, I showed this website to a number of FtM's I know, and they pointed out a couple of reasons why, even though the products are ostensibly aimed at them, they would never buy one:

1. The price. Most trans guys I know are dirt poor, and honestly, most cis men I know wouldn't buy a $750 suit either.
2. They are marketed towards women. I was told "there is no way on God's green earth that I'd buy women's clothing, even if it was designed to look like men's." So I tried to think of a reason they should buy it, and I said "but what about for guys who are starting out, and haven't had top surgery and stuff?" And again, I was told by the guys "I BUY MEN'S CLOTHES FROM THE MEN'S STORE!" I actually understand that, and I guess it's the same reason I don't shop at places like "Suddenly Femme."

I don't think these suits are really targeted well at trans men, so that leaves cis women.

Anyway, although I welcome all replies, I'd be especially interested in an explanation of what's going on here from the perspective of GG's? And some follow on questions - "are the women using this product crossdressing?" Also, "to what purpose would women wear these suits?"

[pamela7]

i can see why they would not appeal, and definitely not to me as a male CD'er anyway - they're too "gay". Our TG F2M child and their partner would only ever buy mens clothes from mens shops. There is no logic by which they would buy clothing designed to fit their body frames because by definition that would reveal their body shape which they want to disguise.

For me, if I ever have to buy any male clothing again, it will be fully male and functional.

After having bought a couple of items from a m2f trans shop in the beginning of my CD, ever since its been clothing from women's shops and clothing made by welshgirl for me, styled to look feminine, not adapted to my shape.

[Lorileah]

seems a niche' market where there isn't a very large niche'

[PaulaQ]

Well, the market is really butch lesbian women, particularly well to do women who can afford the suits. What I wondered is whether or not we felt this was, in fact, cross dressing of a sort? It certainly seems to me to be gender-bending. The company actually contacted me to use the LGBT center where I volunteer, that's why I know about them.

I was sort of surprised by this when they called me - I'd been told so many times that women don't crossdress, so surely I'm not understanding what's going on here?

[Welshgirl]

Hi Paula,

I have just had a look at the site and I have to say that I am really not convinced about the suits! They look to me like something that someone thought was a good idea, before they actually tested the market properly. The only possible reason that I can see why trans women would consider something like this is that men's clothes simply do not fit their bodies. The jackets are easier to make fit, but if you have hips and a waist then trying to make a pair of men's trousers stay up (they are pretty much straight up and down from waist to hips) is extremely hard.

Women do cross dress, for sure - our household is proof of that - but going for something like this? Not convinced!

[Teresa]

Paula,
They do appear to be tailored for a female shape as the jackets need to be cut shorter and maybe the trousers a fuller cut around the hips !
I can't help feeling it's for an exclusive snob appealing market, but obviously there must be a market ! Not unless a foreign manufacturer got an order completely wrong and it's a ploy to sell them off !
I have to agree with you, we have no need to frequent specialist shops and pay exorbitant prices most retailers are happy to take your money and try and give customer satisfaction no matter who you're buying the clothes for !
Women don't crossdress they're just more adventurous with their fashions, it's called pushing the envelope ! Male CDers are just weird !!!

[Marcie Rose]

My daughter crossdresses as a guy, but she would never wear those suits. When she dresses as a guy, she wears mens clothes, pads & binds to look like a male body, does her hair, etc. She is trying to look and feel masculine and those suits don't convey that. Now that she's pregnant though, that look is harder to achieve. I know some cis women who might wear them.

[Greenie]

The market is for Ellen DeGeneres.

I think that this is not marketed towards the kinds of GG's you will find here. At least I have not met any GG's here who would go outwardly looking for a suit. I think this market is for butch lesbians and some trans. There is a market in the wedding industry and this website is featured on offbeat bride, as a suit for the wedding. I could see wanting a really nice fitting suit for a very special occasion like that.

But I don't think this pertains to me at least. They look nice. I spent HALF that for my wedding dress. So that is CRAZY the cost.

[sometimes_miss]

I know two gay women who would buy something like that. Both are the more 'butch' partners with their female SO's, and are quite comfortable wearing regular male clothing, but are VERY female physically and don't appear to have any intention to change that, and perhaps might have trouble finding a male suit that will fit correctly. Both wear pants exclusively, but I haven't seen they wearing men's dress shoes; they wear what appear to be expensive sort of plain women's flat shoes, much like my own Allen Edmunds loafers. I don't think they have any problems wearing clothes which are made for women in the way that a lot of us CD'ers would not want female type clothing which is made for men (such as, say, the dresses and outfits sold by xdress.com; I want genuine girl clothes, not girl style clothes made for men). So Greenie probably has the right idea. Those suits are for women who are happy being women, but want to wear something that looks more masculine.

And oh yeah, I do own several expensive men's suits (one custom made, the others altered for me). Even though I'm not rich, I do try to give off the appearance of someone who is: Well dressed, jacket & tie, dress shoes, nice watch, expensive car. Why? Because women notice, and the scent of $$$ and status is as subconsciously attractive to nearly all women as a nice perfume is to a man. I make no lies about what I do for a living, but I do believe that appearance and behavior goes a long way towards influencing how people subconsciously feel about you. A good suit does make a profound difference.

[PaulaQ]

The market is for Ellen DeGeneres.

I think that this is not marketed towards the kinds of GG's you will find here. At least I have not met any GG's here who would go outwardly looking for a suit. I think this market is for butch lesbians and some trans.

Got it in one, I agree they are for butch lesbians.

[Welshgirl]

Ok, to turn the question round the other way, from a GG's perspective...

Would any cross dressing guys ever buy clothes that are made to fit them, rather than simply going to the shops and purchasing ladies' clothes? There are ways of making it so that the tailoring of the clothes gives the illusion of female shape, and you don't have to go to all the bother of padding hips and bums.

[VS Fan]

Yeah Welshgirl, I don't think so... I've read MANY a post here where M2F CDs simply don't want "panties made for men" or "skirts for men"... I fall in that category. Part of the allure I guess is that they are women's clothes. Can't fully explain it, but I don't think I'm alone in that regard. Interesting topic though to flip the angle on this. VS Fan

[Sammy777]

SO many things to go over.

Whoever is responsible for the marketing is an idiot, and an ill-informed one at that.
They are essentially trying to market their product to both Women and [Trans]Men.
This may be a stretch, but it appears that the people behind this site do not consider Transmen to be MEN.

These clothes are not something the usual everyday GUY would wear. If a man wants a suit he goes to The Men's Wearhouse, Brooks Brothers, ect. Not a niche shop that is trying to cater to Women, who may like "menswear inspired" Women's clothing.
And that goes for Transmen as well! A [Trans]Man wants the same thing every other man wants, a MENS suit, lol.

Oh, you would be surprised how many men would buy a $750 suit.
My evil twin owed a few pricey pieces that cost more then that.
Also you have to consider that a men's suit is far more versatile and can be worn many more times, for many different occasions then the comparable women's formal wear. Men have only two types of "Formal wear" a suit, and the lesser worn Tuxedo and that's it.
The former which is worn for work, a wedding, a night out, theater, a date, ect., ect.. We do not have that option, lol.

The whole "Women and Crossdressing" Debate
1) Women wearing women's Jeans, Pantsuits, Trousers, Suits, ect. [Insert any "men's wear" inspired clothing.]
While the origins and designs may have come directly from the men's dept., these clothes are designed, made, marketed and sold to women as women's clothes. As such, women are wearing nothing more then women's clothes with no ulterior motives for doing so.

A perfect example of this is the Pea Coat. A traditionally male [sailors topcoat] that is now seemingly more popular with women then men as a winter coat.

2) Why women who wear men's clothes aren't traditionally considered cross dressers.
While the basic definition of a cross dresser may be "someone who wears clothing of the opposite sex".
You have to resign to the fact that this definition heavily leans more towards "men who wear women's clothes"
Why? It goes way back to the outdated beliefs and thinking that women are the weaker sex.
As such, a woman wearing men's clothes is seen as her trying to elevate herself to that of a man.
And a man wearing women's clothes is lessening himself, being seen as weak, or "less of a man".
While I do not agree with this, I also know that theses beliefs are still very alive and well today.

Ya, sounds great, but you didn't mention women who wear men's clothes. I'm glad you asked!
I am quite guilty of doing this myself as I own several items of men's clothes that I refuse to give up for many reasons, lol.
They are usually of better/stronger quality, cheaper, thicker/warmer and/or just way more comfortable then their counterparts found in the women's section.

Here are two examples: Winter coats and Flannel shirts.
When looking for a heavier 3/4 length winter coat I found two.
The first in the women's section, nice, although not that heavy and a bit "flimsy" in quality. Price: $200.
The second in the men's section, nice, heavy, excellent quality, definitely not "flimsy". Price: $100 [on sale 40% off]
A better quality, thicker, heavier well built coat for 1/2 the price, not counting the sale. Take a guess which one I bought.

I love flannel shirts in the winter. And up till recently finding them in the women's section was near impossible.
When you do find them, they're either ridiculously over priced, fitted and shorter [hitting just below natural waist] and in only a few colors.
Even if you were to buy a larger size, which always sold out first, the fit/look just wasn't right.
Where as in the men's section not only do you have all these colors to choose from but an over sized just has that look and feel.
Oh and they are cheaper, built better, longer, usually down to your hips and are not "fitted". A Win Win!

Here is the important thing to remember though, when I wear them, or any other piece of pilfered men's clothes I am NOT trying to look, act, behave, or be taken/thought of as a man. As is the case for most any other women that do the same.
Women can not help that MEN attach virtually no stigma against us wearing their clothes.
Sorry the same can't be said for men who wish/want to wear women's clothes.

Most women, for whatever reason, that wear any article of men's clothing are usually doing in for comfort or style.
NOT to try to look, feel or be take as Men. Most do not think "Oh this flannel shirt makes me feel masculine"
While on the flip side, how many thousands of posts on here detail how even underdressing makes that person feel Sexy or Feminine.

Further more, men who wear Traditional Kilts or the newer sport/utility Kilts are not considered cross dressing because those are items made for and sold to men. And unless you want some free tooth removal, lol, don't ever call a Kilt a skirt.

Yet, there have been MANY oh here who have basically said: I would never buy/wear one of those "Men's Kilts" because if I wear something like that I would rather it be a women's skirt.
So tell me, how do you expect times to change when there are items of men's clothes available that are akin to women's clothes that can be wore without [or with much less] prejudice then women's clothes but they get rejected for not being women's clothes?

[Tina_gm]

One of the reasons why you don't see women CDers as much is because there is such a wider variety of "women's clothing" and I am not just saying pants, or jeans. There are definitely many very feminine style pants and jeans that are in no way whatsoever crossdressing. We could go back 200 years and yeah, a woman wearing pants would be CDing, but men wore nickers then and if they wore them now they would be capris and they would then be considered to be CDing.

There is though a wider variety, so for women to CD, they have to really push harder, or really go to a greater length in some ways to be CDing. Perhaps though, some women don't want to shop in mens clothing stores for the clothes they want to wear?? or perhaps they have a harder time finding the sizes they need??

[Katey888]

I find this very curious, but then we do rather inhabit a curious space, don't we all....?

I don't know where they got their definition of 'harridan' first off (yeah - probably Websters.. or worse, Microsoft...) as the OED defines it as "A haggard or ill-tempered (old) woman..." Hardly the image I'd be going for, but hey - maybe I'm being too literal... again!

I don't see that you'd get any real benefit over going to a gent's made-to-measure tailor and having a suit fitted traditionally - might be more expensive in the US, but I'll bet there are places in some major city's Chinatowns you'll get excellent custom tailors who would do as good a job. I do agree with your perspective on pricing - $750-850 is a hugely expensive tailored suit anywhere today (might be different in US). CAD (Computer Aided Design) and automated cutting have revolutionised this market, apparently - but it's probably a market where to some extent you still do get what you pay for...

Are they crossdressing? I believe so. My defining element for this would be regarding style. These are styled to be like men's suits (as you say, in a similar way to Suddenly Femme's wider shoulders, etc.) in order to look more 'manly'. I can get this - but like you and others, really feel that the best way to do that is actually in a man's suit and then bulk those shoulders out - get to the gym and pump some iron!

Just to close - their bow ties are frickin' awful... IMHO...

Katey x