Do we treat women differently than other males?

[Mark/Rebecca]

My wife works with contractors as a vendor, and she has a few that treat her very poorly including talking poorly of her to their mutual customers. It just amazes me how chauvinistic some men still are towards women. But it did make me wonder how I relate to women in general as I certainly have more empathy for females and hope that I have a greater connection with them when interacting.

[Beverley Sims]

I certainly hope so as we have a different insight towards women than other males.

[Heidi Stevens]

I agree with Beverly, MB. I know there are a lot of males out there that make men like us look better with out us even having to try. I am constantly watching the ladies to improve my presentation, but a great side benefit is you see the interaction of men with women and how the ladies react to them. I hope I have picked up enough clues to know when I might be stepping over the line with the ladies.

[PaulaQ]

I wonder how true this really is? I know y'all have this feminine part of yourselves, but many of you still solidly identify as men. And you can bail out of girl mode, and back into boy mode when the going gets tough. I think that y'all are probably more sensitive than most cis guys - I'm sure you are for the most part. Just saying it's hard to really appreciate someone else's difficulties in life until you experience them directly yourself, without a safety net.

Not trying to be a jerk here or anything. Just pointing out that y'alls insight into the lives of women might not be as deep as you might hope. Of course mine aren't perfect either - there are many experiences a lot of women have that I'll never get to have, both good and bad. A fact that makes me so horribly sad sometimes, as the ones I got instead were just so meaningless and awful. (Nothing like looking back on your life, and realizing that for the first 50 years of it, there is not one thing about it that you wouldn't change if only you could.)

[CynthiaD]

It's hard to tell, but I'm pretty certain I do. I think of myself as female most of the time, so naturally I treat women as equals. If anything, I tend to favor women over men, because I identify more with the female side of things. But of course, there are female things that I can never experience, so it's hard to tell.

[~Joanne~]

I treat people how I would like to get treated regardless of their gender. If they want to be nasty, then nasty is what they get. If they are pleasant then that is what they get. How I am dressed at the time plays very little in it.

[Jeninus]

Sometimes the differences can be frustrating. Two examples: I have, over the years, bought a lot of new cars. I have usually done my homework before entering the showroom. Typically, if you are dealing with a female sales agent and start asking specific questions about the car you are interested in - its features (engine, transmission, suspension, etc.) the female sales agent will, more likely than not, have to confer with a male sales person to get the answer. This can be very frustrating and leaves the impression that she is unprepared for her job and out of her depth. Can you respect her as much as the male sales person who has studied his product and knows the answer? If you don't - and I don't - I still treat her with the utmost respect. But then I am both TG and a lawyer (a field in which extremely smart female lawyers are everywhere and they will slice and dice you with consummate ease if you aren't prepared, so you gotta respect them and this bleeds over into other areas of life).

A second example is selling or buying a home. Females seem to predominate in home sales. My experience has been that they are highly professional and really know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale. In this case, they definitely have earned their respect, as opposed to the female new car sales agent.

Perhaps in the case of a woman who has to deal with contractors, a lack of deep knowledge about construction materials, supplies and methods has led to a lack of respect in a rough and highly competitive field dominated by hard-driving no-nonsense males.

[AllieSF]

Having over 40 years in the construction industry, I have seen the chauvinist, as well as, the totally accepting males, that still do not soften a comment when they feel a point needs to be made, i.e. men tend to be much more direct and honest when dealing with each other, especially in construction. If they have a problem with a product, service or work effort they tend to talk specifically to it and not beat around the bush. Not knowing all the details of what your wife experienced and heard from others, I cannot talk directly about her experience. I am not defending those involved with your wife, but did want to clarify that some are like that, but many and probably most are not.

Also just like women, if not even more so, men like to gossip and do indeed talk behind others' backs, so not much difference there.

[femmale]

Im polite towards everyone (more so towards females though) and dislike sexist comments made towards women. I get along far better with women and Im hopeless at making conversation with men especially at work.

[Barbara Black]

PaulaQ: Don't be sad, be different.

[Katey888]

We-e-e-ll.... Some of us probably do... and some of us probably don't. Not much help I know, but it is the weekend...

Sexism and chauvinism is alive, well and kicking in more than just the construction industry - I think it's a little Utopian to think that we might be amongst the last generation that reflects these attitudes, but at least things are improving.

Personally, in business, I try to deal respectfully with everyone regardless of gender, race, culture or class (most societies do reflect a class element even though most will deny it) but I have a pet theory about human nature and that it's our conscious self that overcomes a natural tendency to be parochial - it's just that most folk (the 'average' ones Sammy has referenced) never bother to think about how their world view might be changed, broadened or improved. I think because we also cover such a broad range of behaviours here it's difficult to generalise about CDers even just on this forum - if we were talking about CDers that identify more as TG, then there might be something more deeply connected, but then women can be horrid to each other too... sometimes scarily so...

Katey x

[Allisa]

Well growing up in a female household I kind of can't help but respect women for who they are not by their gender. Although there are times when my male ego takes over and the female mind kind of boggles mine. I also feel that my "femme" self helps in some way to relate to them on certain levels.

[meganmartin]

I would have to ditto this.

Well growing up in a female household I kind of can't help but respect women for who they are not by their gender. Although there are times when my male ego takes over and the female mind kind of boggles mine. I also feel that my "femme" self helps in some way to relate to them on certain levels.

[Mark/Rebecca]

Jamielynn, I think you cut off the last part of the quote "said Buffalo Bill" LOL. Of course I do agree with you.

Jeninus, as owner/partners and my wife being the manager, she is nothing but professional. This neanderthal just talks down to women particularly in authoritative positions. I do think I am an advocate of the female in business, and when asked my opinion, I have responded with "I tend to want to give her anything she wants" in the past. Perhaps my motives are not completely altruistic as this usually increases the size of the project.

Reine, I am glad you took it in the spirit it was intended.

[Jeninus]

Jeninus, as owner/partners and my wife being the manager, she is nothing but professional. This neanderthal just talks down to women particularly in authoritative positions.

M/R, this happens everywhere. Virtually every female attorney will tell you that she has been mistaken for a secretary or paralegal when approaching a new client - and some clients refuse to accept the professionalism of a female attorney. Female doctors are mistaken for nurses, etc. Perhaps it's a societal thing, with a mixture of low expectations and resentment founded on a baseless assumption of some sort of affirmative action advantage afforded to women.

Unfortunately, the Neanderthal gene appears to have survived the onslaught of the Cro-Magnon! According to some studies our fellow citizens out there have 1 - 4% Neanderthal genes. Your wife's antagonist may have a disproportionately high level. Perhaps he will, like many contractors, declare bankruptcy before too long and be out of her hair.

[jamielynn_ca]

I think perhaps we have the opportunity to be more compassionate, whether or not all CD's take advantage of this is their own personal decision. I think those that are out and about in the vanilla and LGBT world on occasion can gain a better perspective of how women are really treated.

Here's an interesting quote from To Kill a Mockingbird, with "his" changed to "her" for our audience:

[...] You never really understand a person until you consider things from her point of view […] until you climb into her skin and walk around in it.

Consider the domestic violence stats in the US (source - http://www.thehotline.org/resources/statistics/)
- Nearly 3 in 10 women (29%) and 1 in 10 men (10%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence and/or stalking by a partner and report a related impact on their functioning. (as a side note - I've been told by an activist that the number is even higher for TS women)
- From 1994 to 2010, about 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence (IPV) were female
- Nearly, 15% of women (14.8%) and 4% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included rape, physical violence and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

Having spent time en femme out, I've been cat-called by a group of guys from across the street (they didn't make me as TG), groped, slapped on the butt, experienced the "creepy eyed guy" in the bar watching me all night, and even fear of possible violence just walking one block to my car. I think I posted about that incident a while ago. The point is, having grown up with all sisters and myself having only daughters - I though I was already more compassionate towards women. But experiencing the fear first hand was a wake up call. And it made me sad that my daughters will have to face the possibility of violence every day of their lives.

So - get out there. Experience it. And I hope it DOES change your perspective and help you treat women differently.

[kimdl93]

I'd like to say yes, but from what I've read in these very "pages", I'd have to say that the attitudes towards women here are quite reflective of men generally - some informed and enlightened, some romanticized and idealized, some rather outmoded and a few sadly rather primitive.

[NicoleScott]

As a CDer, my insight is limited to what women wear. That's it. Mars/Venus for everything else.

[JessMe]

My girlfriend has mentioned on occasion something to the effect. She appreciates the differences, but wouldn't want me to always be "girly".

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Interesting thread! Becoming more femme has only underlined to me the differences between males and females.

Sammy777: crying 'sexist!' when you encounter statements like Jeninus's strikes me as a PC kneejerk based on idealism and ignoring an avalanche of evidence. Without getting too bogged down in such an old argument, perhaps you could suggest a reason why less than 1% of garage mechanics are female?

[Sammy777]

Without getting too bogged down in such an old argument, perhaps you could suggest a reason why less than 1% of garage mechanics are female?

I could make a long post with plenty of reasons backed up with fancy pie charts and graphs. lol
Short version = From a very young age Girls are not encouraged to pursue such fields as science and industry.
And even when they still persist to show an interest they are often not taken seriously or met with ridicule.

Granted it may be better now (I hope!) but when I was in HS, Vocational school programs were all VERY male dominated. The small amount of females that did attend (surprise, surprise) wound up in the Culinary class, go figure?.

There was one girl who was in the automotive class with me. She lasted about three weeks. Why?
Not because she could not handle the work, or because of "just being a girl" changed her mind.
No, it was because she was never left alone, always getting singled out and patronized more times then not.
Not to mention the "she MUST be a Lesbian". Oh wait it wasn't put that nice, more like "Check out the Dyke".
She was basically run out of the "Boy's club". Plain and simple. Something I am sure still very much happens today.

It has been my personal experience that the majority of girls who have an automotive [mechanic's] background and pursued it as a career usually had a father, uncle, ect in the field. And more importantly, usually had either no older brothers, or was the only girl in a large family of sons. (Meaning she was probably treated as one of the boys)

I hate to generalize, but the avg girl has about the same chance of getting hired as a mechanic as a straight guy does getting hired in a hair salon "That was, I say that was a joke son" -Foghorn leghorn

[Brandy Mathews]

Yes,
I think that the man thing sometimes is the macho, I am better then you thing. Even before I started dressing, which was over 20 years ago, I was brought up, just like some have said, to treat anyone like you want to be treated. Well times have changed, and not for the better. People are so disrespectful, at least the younger people seem to be, and that s their parents fault because it was not taught to them. I still date women, and I still believe in treating them very well. Holding the door for them, pulling the chair back for them at the table. Is that wrong? Some people look at me like I am so wrong, but you know what, I won't change.
Hugs,
Bree

[suchacutie]

Absolutely we do, and it covers the whole spectrum. Since Tina arrived almost 10 years ago, my wife has never been late! Once one knows what it takes for a women to get ready to go somewhere, one's whole perspective changes. Another: buys solve problems; a women states an issue and guys just want to solve it and move on. Many women do not handle it this way, and we are the ones in the best position to know this. We are simply more in tune with what women go through and how they view life. That knowledge can't help but change our perspectives and our actions.

[pamela7]

i recently visited a nearby garage having first spoken on the phone several times with the lady who represented the service area. Let me tell you she more than knew everything. I don't think I've ever had such an informed and professional interaction.

I've in the past felt like a second-citizen at a garage as the mechanics clearly know things I don't and looked down on my lack of engine know-how - and that was me in drab long before CD-ing. It has been largely true that the man has to speak to the garage mechanic, the woman has to speak to the hairdresser about the kids. However, society is changing, there are far more home-care dads with wives out at work, single-parent families of either gender parent. The boundaries will continue to blur, and as they do the treatment issue will change.

[ReineD]

LOL. While reading all the comments here, it strikes me that responses (including my own) reflect the member's own views of gender disparity. So is there an unequivocal, unalterable, objective truth, or is it a question of an individual looking at the world as a glass half full or half empty. Are some of our members sexist and because if it they see this as being the norm?

Truth and reality are subjective. I don't see myself as less capable than a man. Therefore, I do not detect sexism among the males I interact with, except the very few who are flagrant about it but as I said earlier, these men are dominate among other men too. This is also true of dominate women who also are out there. Men do not have a monopoly on superiority.