Always pushing the limits.

[Maria 60]

A few years back I was introduced to a man from Hong Kong who would come here for business a few times a year and had a condo he wanted renovated. I have been working on it for about two years on and off. Last January he was in town and I finally finished and I was getting my bill paid and I was handing back the keys when he asked me for a favour. He asked me if I could maybe watch over the place, maybe drop in every few weeks and make sure everything is OK and in case the property management have to get into the condo I could be the contact number, he also has a Porsche 911 parked in the underground. Even though he has the trickle charge for the battery he asked if I could start it and maybe when the snow melts I could take it for a drive now and then. He told me he would make it worth my while and if I was ever downtown and didn't want to drive all the way home that I could stay there, or if I needed a break from married life or from the kids to use the place when ever I wanted. I really didn't want the responsibility but I agreed. I would pop in every now and then when I was in the area during working hours, even though he was not married the last time he came he brought a girl with him and bought her lots of clothes, the problem for me was that girl is like a size zero, all those clothes and bras and panties and all I could do is look at them, even her pantyhose didn't even fit over my arm, never mind my leg. Last weekend my wife had a girls weekend at a resort and spa, I told her I was going to stay at the condo and have a Maria weekend. I went there Friday night and fully dressed excited to have some alone time. That place is like a man cave, huge TV lots of video games and shelves of movies. I slept dressed on the couch and then Saturday morning changed outfits and then it happened, I wasn't happy just being dressed anymore I wanted more, I opened the condo door, it was quit, not happy enough yet I took a few steps out the door, no not happy still, a few more steps, now half way down the corridor, go back in maybe I will try to throw the garbage out in the garbage room down the corridor next to the elevator, open the door slowly and without a second thought off I go passing all the other doors, if any of them would come out of there condos I was for sure caught and I do not in any way pass at all. Throw the garbage out and open the door and tell myself what a thrill that was, while I was closing the condo door the elevator bell rings, I look threw the peek hole to see the lady next door walking down the corridor, WOW! I was less then one second away from getting caught that was not a thrill. I then didn't feel comfortable living in someone else's space and I knew just like a killer I was going to kill again until I was caught. I packed my things and went home. When my wife returned I told her I ended the weekend short and she was kind of surprised I reacted that way, that I should have known that I was going to push the limits, that it is human nature to want more, give a finger, and then want the whole hand. She told me while she was with her friends she was imagining me driving around with the Porsche fully dressed ( wow I didn't think of that). She told me maybe in the future I could just go for the day and to remember that with given opportunity we will always push the limits, we are never happy, we always want more. I now ask you, with opportunity would we ever be happy or will we always push for more, will we ever say that's far enough and just be happy?

[Mark/Rebecca]

Thank god her clothes particularly intimates did not fit you. That is a major violation of privacy. [B]Many[B] years ago I would wear my wife's things and for many years after I would see her examine her panties prior to pulling them up. It was a reminder of how wrong it was taking her years to quietly forget it.

[Dana44]

Nice story Maria, I do agree that we push the limit. We are male of course, if we get an inch we take a mile. I would feel the same as you on being in someones else space. And yes I would probably get that from a female, like you did . Ah, no didn't think about.

[Alice Torn]

I can relate , in that as a 14 yr old, i suddenly got the urge to put on my sisters, and moms hose, and some other clothes. I am sure they discussed it together, and my parents tried to get me to a shrink, without mentioning the dressing. I violated their clothes. Much later, at a window washing job, for a lady i had worked for, for years, she said she was leaving for several hours. She is quite tall, and her clothes might fit me! Temptation! When cleaning her master bath mirrors, and window, i noticed a lot of her clothes hanging up in there. One little black dress in particular. i decided to try it on for just a few moments, then put it back. If she or her husband had caught me, it would not have been a comforting moment. I gave in, for a minute or so, but not a good idea.

[RADER]

I did push my limits today.
For the very first time, I put on a skirt, panties and bra of coarse, and a plain
no sex top. Jumped into the car, drove to town, went through the drive up bank,
went to Dun-kin Donuts and picked up some coffee, and headed back home.
All together, about 9 miles with 2 stops. No wig or make up, just a guy wearing a
a skirt. Now this was a very bold move on my part.
But I have been wearing a bra under dressed for better than 2 weeks now;
That is another first.
See what reading this forum will do to a old "Man"
I love it.
Rader

[Suzie Petersen]

Hi Maria,

I can totally identify with the temptation to push the limits. I have many times taken chances that, looking back, were stupid and risky. I know some people talk of such situations as a desire, subconscious perhaps, to get caught, but I dont think that was ever it for me. More of a feeling that I could probably get away with it and that it was a step closer to getting integrated into the real world as a woman.

Hugs
Suzie

[Welshgirl]

I have been on the other side of this one, as Pamela's SO. The limits that are being pushed are most definitely mine around here.

Gone are the days of Pamela nervously venturing out of the bedroom to find a long mirror the first time he tried a long dress on. Within a very short space of time (a few short weeks), we had gone from dressing round the house when it was just Pamela and I there; through telling one after another of our kids so that he could wear whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to; him wearing a dress up the garden just as one of our neighbours looked up the path and called hello; going out dressed to CD meetings (first without and then with me); going to the shops together and buying clothes for a ladies size 22 when I am a 10 myself; chickening out of getting a makeover together in a department store; going to a different store and buying a wig and makeup; then Pamela wearing more and more overtly ladies clothes out in public and wearing nail varnish to the gym.

Every one of these things (and there have been plenty more in between) have been a huge and scary step for me. Pamela seems to treat it as if it is the most natural thing in the world, while for me my heart is in my mouth and I am convinced that everyone is staring at us. Just when I get used to the idea of one thing, there is another for me to deal with, and it is a huge mountain to climb.

This is the other side of pushing the limits.

[Beverley Sims]

To some extent pushing the limits is like setting goals.

You need to to advance to the next level.

The trick is knowing how fast to advance and how high a goal to set.

Both need to be set at an achievable level.

I am off to set mine again.

[Suzie Petersen]

WelshGirl: So what happens if you reach a hard limit at some point? Have you two talked about how to handle that?

I think Maria's post and ultimate question is a really interesting one. What happens if we are successful in moving the boundary out a little further with every push? Will there come a time where we accept that enough is enough? Do we reach a reality which is sufficient for our need? Or do we keep on pushing.

To stay within the topic of CD'ing, it seems to me there is a theoretical ultimate situation where there is nothing more to push for. That would be a situation where one could take on the female role anytime at will and be fully accepted as a female. Either because of an ability to pass 100%, or because people completely accepted the dresser. In that situation, there would be nothing else to push for!

But in the real world, it is usually more a matter of How far can I go and still get away with it. That is somehow a matter of seeking the edge of the cliff, getting close to the moment of disaster. It could be getting close to being discovered by an unknowing wife, or it could be risking discovery by friends, colleagues or strangers.
It could also be, as in the case of Pamela and WelshGirl! Sorry for using you as an example, but we are kinda' all following your story a little bit I could use me and my wife as an example, but none of you know her nor our story. So in that case of an apparently accepting wife and a CD'er with a newfound freedom, there is a push to do more and more but there is a risk that something might break! Call it Pink Fog or whatever, but it is an euphoric feeling that anything goes and there are no limits.
I can clearly hear it in your words WelshGirls! You are accepting and tolerant, and bless you for that, but it is stressful and a challenge at the same time.
So when we, the CD'er, find ourselves in such a situation, how far do we push it? Do we understand and respect the potential consequences of keeping on pushing? Do we seek the limit and then step back a few steps to a safe area? Or do we not see it and push on beyond the point of no return and into a crash?

I have heard time after time that one of two things happen: Either the wife suddenly has enough of it and says stop. There can be many reasons for this, and several outcomes. Quite often though, when she reaches that point, something has permanently broken and there is now way of finding an acceptable balance anymore. She might have reached a point where it just has to go away completely. It ends bad for both parties.

Another classic situation is that the wife says stop because she has gotten to a point of Here and no further. The CD'er realizes there was a limit there but instead of dialing it all back a little and settling with good enough, the CD'er just waits and then start pushing again in the hope that the wife got over it, forgot about it or just had a bad day! Heading for disaster again!

- Suzie

[pamela7]

:-) I hope we're smarter than that. I have a long-time habit of pushing boundaries in many life areas, and discovered boundaries by overstepping them. In our case it's not actually the cross-dressing that is the issue, nor a lack of man-mode activities, nor lack of talking and accepting present boundaries, nor even my constant boundary testing.

It's what lies across the boundary at the present time, best summed-up by a key personality difference - I'm a "get out of trouble" type of person, and welshgirl is an "avoid getting into trouble in the first place" type of person. The CD-ing hits this deep-rooted fundamental difference, that we've talked about a lot, from high-speed driving to swimming near rip currents and so on.

When we've met a big stopper I have backed off, and waited until welshgirl has repeatedly invited a next step. How things are now are not how they have been nor how they will be. We've processed what can be and things that can't be just are, and will continue to process more - most likely. The story goes on :-)

[Tina_gm]

most of us likely will never get to exactly our true nature. Not that it is entirely fem, but that such a life we have created will have a need for us to be masculine or at least in appearance of such for a great majority of our lives. We can squeeze as much of our feminine selves into what 5 or 10% our lives, but even if we are still on the masculine side over all, and we are say 70-30 masculine feminine, that feminine side will never get the amount of time spent on it or her I should say externally. many CDers are near 50% if not on the fem side, so there will always likely be some push in their lives....

[cassiekat]

I guess I'm done with limits even though my family and society keep smacking me down, I'm trying hard not to feel bad about myself or ashamed of who or what I am but it is a constant struggle. I guess I put to much stock into my civil liberties (USA ) and forgot about the herd mentality: ( In America at least it doesn't matter what it is it matters what it looks like. So being a 6'2 200lb male I should be out slaughtering the enemies of Christianity and capitalism not wearing 6" heels and mini skirts.

[leannejacobs]

I hear you, I'm at a point where I'm scared of what I'll try next, I have a wife who accepts I need to dress and knows when I head away to the city for my work I take my things with me, what she doesn't know is I go out dressed, walks in the evening to start with where there are not many people about, I wanted more,,, into sme supermarkets browsing through women's wear avoiding getting too close to people, not satisfied I ventured into an LGTV friendly bar for a drink and went for a walk in the shopping centre, it was late with not too many people around, I've now gone into shops right next to people and just smile if they make eye contact, as I said I'm scaring myself, I'm just getting too bold for my own good, I've gone from being discrete to not really caring, I'd be quite passable if I was shorter, if anything it'd be my height that'd give me away, I just can't help myself and keep pushing the boundary further and further, I need to stop it.

[Suzie Petersen]

Pamela: I think you are both pretty smart people I'm sure you'll be fine.

Pamela: When we've met a big stopper I have backed off, and waited until welshgirl has repeatedly invited a next step.

Thats key! Thats what makes you different than most others I have ever heard about, and myself too to be honest! Back off and wait for her to invite the next step! Brilliant! If that is really true (not that I doubt you, but I guess I would like to hear WelshGirl's side too) then that is exactly how it should be. Get too close to a boundary, see the red flag go up, back up and wait, until the SO clearly indicates that it is OK to proceed .. OR until a permanent boundary has been discussed and established, never to be tested again!

I think thats where most of us fail. We either never recognize the red flag, or we dont have the patience to wait for the go ahead signal. Worst of all, we accept a defined and agreed upon boundary only to challenge and test it again after a while .. because we want it our way and will keep trying until we get it!
One thing kids and men apparently dont understand, is that the words "What Ever!" and "Just do what you want!" actually does not mean you are cleared to proceed

- Suzie

[Jenniferathome]

I would have to state that I have pushed the limit and now and happy just going out when I feel like. Cross dressing is not infinite. There is not always a "next." Once you are out and about, that's it. You may do different things. You might feel more comfortable but that's it. Being out, dressed, and interacting with the normals is the end, for cross dressing.

[Welshgirl]

Get too close to a boundary, see the red flag go up, back up and wait, until the SO clearly indicates that it is OK to proceed .. OR until a permanent boundary has been discussed and established, never to be tested again!

Well, I suppose all limits only exist in the mind of the person setting them. Certainly for me, I have had lots of limits around this Cding, and to be fair they have mostly been ones which looked worse from further away than they did when I actually got up close to them. They have sometimes taken a while for me to reach the point where I am comfortable to cross them or abandon them, but so far I am doing pretty well I think.

On the flip side of that, the last few months I have felt like I have faced a constant stream of challenges. No sooner have I adjusted to one, than I am faced with the next. Pamela will back off until I am ready to deal with it, but the responsibility is all mine to adjust to the new situation. Once that has been accepted, we are on to a new one and round it goes again.

There are times when it just feels relentless, and I think that Pamela will only stop once 'man in a dress' can go out anywhere and in any company. I really don't think my aging parents will adjust too well to seeing their son-in-law turning up in a cami top and blue lycra circular skirt complete with stockings and suspenders, or even a much more conservative leggings and long tunic dress with knee length boots. That might be one of my very few hard limits!

I guess the important thing for me is that things do change. My attitude about something is not fixed, and is often only down to assumptions that I make about how other people will think or behave or react. I am the kind of person who will go away from a difficult situation, think about it, work it through and allow other perspectives the chance to alter my opinions of the situation.

What is not a good idea is for anyone to interfere during this process, and certainly not to try and hurry it along. The more I feel pushed into something, the more I am going to dig my heels in and resist it. If Pamela was to bounce me into accepting something that I wasn't ready for, then I would be very resentful. I know everyone is different, and that other SOs will possibly react differently, but from reading the posts I suspect that there are quite a few who have a similar process to mine.

I would love to be able to not even worry what other people might think, but that is not who I am. I don't like that it feels like either I get to live life the way I am comfortable, or Pamela gets to live life the way that Pamela is comfortable, and that there is not much overlap between the two while I hold these limits. All I can do is gently and patiently chip away at them and be grateful that Pamela is sufficiently aware of how I work that I have the space to do so at my own pace.

[Marcelle]

Hi Maria . . . very interesting post.

Pushing limits, boundaries or whatnot . . . IMHO is how one grows. For most of us here (myself included), we have hidden this part of us for many years be it through necessity, shame, guilt or denial. The end result we have not allowed this side of us to grow to the extent our "birth gender" side has been able to grow. Society (including our parents) allowed for the pushing of limits, in concert with our birth gender which formed the person we are today. However, the other side of our gender expression was only allowed to steal glimpses of life as we grew. Fast forward into the future and you are now in a relationship where your SO accepts on some level and tolerates . . . naturally your other side is going to push those boundaries and limits in a hyper-accelerated pace to catch up to your birth gender growth . . . call it synchronicity if you like or just getting equal time . . . you new found gender expression needs to grow because you need to grow as a person. Given this, it is plausible you will stretch boundaries/limits to a point where you find balance and happiness in which both parties can agree, be it anywhere along the spectrum of closeted DADT to fully out to the world. That is what communication is for to mutually establish those boundaries to the emotional benefit of both the CDer and the SO allowing both parties to grow within the relationship.

If a mutually agreed upon boundary/limit is reached and the CDer wishes to test/push it, then both parties need to communicate as to the way ahead. Perhaps it can be breached and perhaps not. However, a contingency needs to be in place a sort of "what if" . . . What if this is a no go zone, can either party live with it or without it. If the answer is CDer needs the limit pushed (will not compromise) and the SO cannot live with the breach (will not compromise) . . . then IMHO it is likely the relationship will be dramatically affected and could falter. However, IMO if you as a couple have not established the outer limit which cannot be breached and should you find yourselves there at some point, it could be quite devastating without an exit plan. When we started this journey together, my wife and I talked about his a lot. For the us the final limit would be where I felt a need to express this side of me permanently. Not so much transitioning but that not being predominately Isha would make it difficult for me to function in the world. My wife is supportive but she will not find herself in a same sex relationship as that is not how she is wired. So we agreed, should I reach that point, we would regrettably part ways . . . we would stay friends but we would cease to be husband and wife.

Hugs

Isha

[kimdl93]

Pushing old limits is how we grow. Your wife is right. Next time prepare to take advantage without being constrained by guilt, shame or fear.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Wow, amazing post- thanks. Stories like yours are what make this site so damn addictive.

If you do decide to take the car out, just don't press the little button which disables the traction control...

Hugs, Nikki

[Mollyanne]

I'm surprised as well that you did not go for a drive. A missed opportunity, but then again you never know.

Molly

[MsVal]

I suppose that some push the limits for the excitement it brings. They enjoy the thrill. Their desire will not wane until they have reached the point where there is no more excitement to be had.

Some, I suppose push the limits in a quest to "perfect their game". Like the golfers that wish to play with the skill and consistency of professionals, they always have some area that needs work. It may be simple as clothing and jewelry, or as complex as surgery.

There are some, like me, that push the limits in search of that elusive "comfort zone" where we feel "right". Oh, sure, there is some excitement involved, but that is perceived as a bad thing, it's a signal that something isn't "right". There is some effort to be better in our presentation, but not so much that we draw attention. Nor do we wish to endure costly, painful, or time consuming procedures that do not lead to feeling "right". For me, and those like me, the end game is to go about our lives with a quiet, relaxed, peaceful feeling of being who we ought to be.

I envision a time when I will dress and groom in whatever fashion is appropriate for the day. I would then and go about my day freely expressing my honest feelings.

I can envision that time because I am extremely fortunate to have such a loving, accepting, and supporting wife, and a therapist that helps me keep my feet on the ground and my head out of the clouds.

Next up, I will tell my wife that for my birthday I would like to get my ears pierced and buy a nice pair to wear when the ears have healed.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Pat]

I've always been into risk-taking behavior (motorcycles, airplanes, parachutes, etc) and so I'm not clear if risks I take crossdressing are about the crossdressing or about the risk. I tend to think it's the latter -- that crossdressing is just one more activity that gives me opportunities, it is not in itself something that forces people to take risks. So, if you're like me, how far you take it has little to do with your fem side and more to do with your daredevil side. Sounds like your wife is attracted to that aspect of your character and that's a good thing.

However, you're a grown-up now and you have no excuse to be defiling other people's clothes. I know that's a thrill too, but let's face it, that's a very selfish thrill. When you're a kid and just discovering you're a crossdresser, there are very few options beyond using other people's clothing even if it would upset them to know you did that. Now you can afford your own and unless you have a person who you know would like the idea that you wore their clothing you should stick to your own.

[victoria76]

A great read! I have felt the same way, it's quite the rush!
Last December I went out fully dressed for the first time without a change of clothes, it was quite an experience!

[CynthiaD]

Eventually you reach a point where there are no more limits to push. I'm more or less at that point. I can go anywhere and do anything en femme. Looking back I see that most of my limits were self imposed. Mainly because of lack of courage or lack of self-acceptance. In time, all barriers crumble.

[Suzie Petersen]

Cynthia: There is the old "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself". However, fear is an incredibly powerful force and I think it is often the direct reason for our self imposed limits.

Isha: Good points as always, but where it disconnects for me is in the clear logical approach to it. "Discuss the issue, make a plan, set the ground rules and define the ultimate exit strategy". All in favor? Good .. we will meet again next Thursday at 2pm!!

Married life, at least in my case, is quite far from being comparable with business life. There is no having a meeting, make a plan and set some guidelines involved. It is a constant guessing game as to what the rules are today and what they might be tomorrow!
When it came to my dressing, there was a super high level of emotions involved for my wife, and a lot of fear too. Not much was rational and not much was constant. What was OK one day, could cause a hysterical crash the following day. What had been agreed as acceptable limits one day, could be completely forgotten a week later.

There can be, and was for me, a clear problem of Moving Goal Posts. And it can be from both sides of course! A kind of Agreement Creep if you like!

WelshGirl and Pamela: I am really impressed with how you deal with this and I just hope that you can keep it going. I am always a little skeptical when I hear about the high acceptance from a spouse, especially when things are moving at a very high pace as it seems to be doing in your case.
There are so many of the things you say that are very similar to things we hear SO's point to as reasons for NOT being able to accept the dressing! And while you might be able to deal with it, it is pretty clear that it is not easy to do so, it requires an effort and some sacrifice.

Some snippets from your earlier comments:

WelshGirl: There are times when it just feels relentless, and I think that Pamela will only stop once 'man in a dress' can go out anywhere and in any company.

WelshGirl: ..... the last few months I have felt like I have faced a constant stream of challenges. No sooner have I adjusted to one, than I am faced with the next. Pamela will back off until I am ready to deal with it, but the responsibility is all mine to adjust to the new situation. Once that has been accepted, we are on to a new one and round it goes again.

We are all different and have different levels of tolerance, acceptance etc, and we have different levels of how much we care about "what others think".
I am looking at the pace Pamela, and some others here too, is moving at and when thinking back to my own situation, I was at a snails pace compared to that! And for me, that pace nearly cost me my marriage and my life.

- Suzie