Between a rock and a hard place

[shawnsheila]

So last night my wife and I were talking and she asked how things were with my dressing. After catching her up on it, she brought up Bruce Jenner and my thoughts on it. Then she told me she wasn't sure she could stay with me if I decided to transition like Bruce.

Just for some brief history, she and I were high school sweethearts. We dated at the age 15 (her) and 16 (me). We broke up here and there but always ended up back together again. We have 4 children and have been married almost 12 years and are now and at the ages 37 (her) and 38 (me)

I told her that if the shoe were on the other foot, I would still love and support her, especially after knowing how it feels to go through this. I did say that it would be very difficult to kiss / have sex with her because I am not attracted to men if she were transgender and wanted to become a man and that I could understand the flip side.

I think what hurt me the most is that i feel kinda sub human with her... she may not be doing it to me, it may be me perceiving it this way but after the years of issues we had after she found out about me and cross dressing, I have a very difficult time telling her how I feel about it because I never know how she will respond (some times angry, some times with jokes, some times sad and upset.., sometimes even mean comments)

the second part that hurts is that it feels like she has one foot out the door in our relationship where as I feel all in it. She said she we rather leave now while she is still young, which i took as, she wants to be with other men... which I would not blame her for but I know i would not do that to her if the shoe were on the other foot... Case in point: As far as our sex life, I am lucky if we have sex once a month... it was like this even before she found out about my cross dressing and for about 16 years... I feel like I had to endure the pain of have little to no sex with her as a man for all these years. And sex is how I show and feel love... its part of my love language so it has been very painful for me.


I know most of this is from my view point, plus i am feeling hurt and sad so some of it is emotional and also I would never have time to give you all the full story of our relationship but I do want you all to know this. I love this woman, I would die for her. I feel she loves me too but I also feel like she is afraid of getting hurt herself (I would never leave her but I also think she could not handle it if I do decide to go forward with transitioning).

So now to bring it all full circle, here is where I am at and why I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place:
I feel that if I had no wife and kids, I would absolutely go full time and live as a woman. I would want to do HRT as well as get facial and body surgery to look more feminine. The only point I am not at is SRS.... I want to keep my "junk". I also know I live in reality and can not do that because I want to keep my family together. I feel like I am in a perpetual state of conflict and pain because of this. It feels like there are only three options at this point:

-Tell my wife how I truly feel about this, possible get the repercussions of a devices and possibly mess up our kids over it (it would not be a messy break up, I would give her everything she wanted because I do love her and I love my kids so they could take everything from me if they wanted and I would not be upset about it... no squabbling over assets, we would both be very supportive of our kids and I know she still loves me too... i just think that would still hurt the kids)

-Keep it to myself and live with being trans until my children are adults (about 10 more years) then transition but then that would be unfair to my wife too, like she mentioned, she is still young and maybe wants to be with other men because she can't deal with me being trans...

-Keep it to myself and repress my feelings until I die, (hopefully) and old "man"

I'm kinda venting / feeling down here... She and I are supposed to resume talking about it tonight though.

Side note: All the friends and family members I have told about all love me and are very supportive... she is the only person that knows about me, whom I love the most aside from our children (they don't know), who has had any negative response to this, which I can partial understand.

I feel like there is no good solution here and I'm just feeling really down about this all... it all really sucks. Part of me just wants to tell her how I really feel about it all and tell her it is her choice if she wants me to stay in the closet, divorce or try and hang in there with me.

[Teresa]

Sheila,
When you have four kids most things must go on the back burner ! I've checked your age and your coming up to the age when you start questioning where your life is going !
I guess you really have to get your own thoughts together and decide what you really want and not what you think you want, if you don't you'll just confuse your wife even more !
As far as your wife is concerned she just needs the man about to help out with every day life, yes she may appear to have one foot out the door because she just needs security right now !
I posted a thread titled, " Never the right time !" A CDer can never choose the right time to come out , or be more open ! Something has always got to be sacrificed to satisfy the feelings inside you, it does feel unfair, it depends what you value most !

I thought finally that now was my opportunity , I would be finally given the chance to be more open , there are still compromises and sacrifices which I hadn't foreseen !!

[cassiekat]

That is a tough one. How strongly do you feel about starting down the road to transitioning? I mean if you are 100% going to do it sometime you might as well be honest with yourself and your wife. The love of your children and wife is very hard to balance against your own happiness. No easy answers for you I'm sorry. If you feel you can hang in there without killing yourself or others maybe try too?

[Meghan4now]

Sheila

You are in a tough place. I get it, and can relate to many of the things you've said. It is clear that you've worked on building your relationship. You've identified one of your major love languages, and are communicating with your wife. Make sure you are using her language as well.

It can be tough if she really feels disconnected or wants something you can't give her. The best you can do is to be loving, honest, respectful and encouraging. She is responsible for her own feelings and you can't force that.

Having said all that, keep in mind that your feelings and vision of the future may need to be re focused. Counseling could be helpful. Also some of your feelings and hers may be due to the stress you have with young kids and the stage of your life.

Stay steady and be deliberate in your choices. Don't rush any decisions. And if you are inclined to, pray over your decisions.

-M.

[CherylFlint]

My word, the trivia that people complain about is quite amazing.
Have fun dressing and live your life.
There’s nothing more important in life other than relationships based on love.
Anything less isn’t worth talking about, or going ape over.
You’ve been “friends” since high school. A “friend” is someone that you can trust and rely on.
What you going to do, “man-up” or “wimp-out”.?
Why don’t you act like a mature adult friend?
I know this comment may upset a lot of you, but you all don’t have to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
There. I said my piece and I’ll stand by it.
Someone said put it on the back bunner.
Cheryl

[Lorileah]

I wouldn't threaten her in any way. She made her feelings known. Ball is in your court. You said "IF" you weren't with her, then you would transition. I know that feeling (and BTW be careful what you say...I am alone now). But if you confront her with "I love you more than you love me" or "If the shoe was on..." you are setting yourself up to be alone. Why are you hurt? She was being honest...YOU on the other hand I wonder about. Did you intimate or even tell her that were she gone you would transition? If you did...then she has let you know what her feelings are on that. If you didn't...you are withholding information, which in MY world, is a breech of love. So I would call it a draw. She evidently lets you dress otherwise she wouldn't have asked...now are you willing to raise? Look at your cards again..unbeatable hand? I think not. She hold 4 Jacks...your kids...and I am sure she will call your bluff.

As the song goes..."Let it go."

[Rhanda]

I know what you are going through. My wife and I raised five children and now have eleven grandchildren and four great grandchildren. All these years I was a secret (I think) crossdresser. I kept those feelings to myself, thinking that I had made the better decision. It turned out that that was right for us and now I dress almost every day and care for my lovely wife who has some health problems. I still would willingly give my life to save hers,willingly! Don't throw those little ones under the bus. You will never be sorry for it.

Make a deal with your wife and keep it. Be on her side and love her for all your life. When the kids have left and you have given her what she not only wants but what she deserves you will be rewarded with an understanding of what you have given all these years.

My wife knows that I dress because I dress nearly every day and I won't leave the house without my makeup even when I don't dress. She has never asked about it and tells me how much she loves me so many time a day that I fail to count.

Live with the promise that comes from selfless love. The rewards are unquestionable.

Rhanda

[kimdl93]

There are a number of ways one can go through life. One is to look at a situation and perceive oneself as a victim. To feel that events and people are conspired or at least aligned against you. Conversely, one can take responsibility and ownership of ones life and allow others to the same for themselves

Your wife doesn't owe you acceptance, and theassertion that you would accept her if the situation was reversed is meaningless. She may be no more capable of accepting a transitioned partner than you are able to abandon female expression entirely. You each have a right to be yourselves, but not to expect acceptance from the other.

Any accommodation of each other will be voluntary and based in a shared agreement that you would prefer to continue together as a couple. Your shared obligations to your children certainly factor in to this, as do other purely pragmatic calculations of the economic and social costs of dissolution. Whatever your decision, make your choice as an independent, autonomous adult, not as a victim.

[Persephone]

I can so identify with your problem! Except for details you could be writing parts of my life!

Sometimes we reach a communications impasse. Perhaps individual and/or couples counseling could help break down some of the walls?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[MissusMeagan]

I'm truly sorry for the pain that you and your spouse are experiencing. As a GG and a spouse, all I can add is how important it has been in my ongoing dialogue with my crossdressing spouse for both of us to feel 'heard' at all times. Which is why I agree with Persephone that maybe counseling or some slight adjustments to the tone, framework, or even setting for your conversation(s) with your spouse could help to break down barriers? Either way, choices like the ones you are contemplating can feel impossible and I am really hoping for the best for you and your family!

[Nikkilovesdresses]

To address just one part of your post Sheila,

I read recently that the primary reason for separation/divorce for women is the husband's unfaithfulness, while the primary reason for men is lack of sex. Two sides of the same coin in other words, and clearly you and I are not the only men that are living with a wife we adore and are devoted to, but who has lost interest in sex. At 53 I'm able to cope with that far better than I would have at 43, but it is still disappointing and frustrating- because no way is it so much of a problem that I'd leave her because of it - and we don't even have kids to complicate matters.

I don't take it personally- our sex life was terrific for 5 years- it was menopause which clobbered it, and the crossdressing is only a recent phenomenon, so it isn't connected to her lack of arousal. However my wife sees the crossdressing as compensation for lack of sex, and therefore sees herself as the cause of it. Repeated reassurance to the contrary has made some difference, but she's a person who tends to blame herself for the world's problems anyway.

It can be hard to know where to draw the line between biting your lip and trying to content yourself with the positives in your life and marriage, and deciding no- this isn't enough, I'm wasting my life here, I need more or I'm going to wither away (or explode). It seems you're at that stage- and it's tough alright.

As far as your final sentence goes, hasn't she already stated clearly that she cannot promise to stay with you if you decide you must transition? In other words, she's saying she's very probably going to leave if you do. The decision must be yours, not hers- it isn't fair to put that responsibility on her shoulders.

If you want to be a woman, you're going to have to take all the responsibility for the decision yourself, and face all the consequences- good, bad, and otherwise. It seems you can count on a lot of support, but if you go for it, you're going to have to let go of the one source of support that you crave the most.

On the other hand you'll be free to rebuild your sex life...though that may not be so simple... and you'll be financially challenged to say the least.

Best wishes and good luck to you Sheila,

Hugs, Nikki

[Rachelakld]

As my wife is NOT a lesbian, if I even thought of transitioning, she would be gone
If my wife wanted a sex change, I would be gone.
While my ex offered companionship without touching, for me I wanted the whole package (love, PDA and special cuddles, etc).
Luckily my wife wants the same, so here we are together.

Maybe your wife would like a life with "a happy ever after", and if you love her, you would let her have that
Maybe your "happy ever after" is a lot different from hers, and it's time for 2 ships to sail in different directions?

Life does not become unhappy after splitting up, we become the masters of our own destinies and find our own happiness.

Do not give her everything if you leave, as one day she will move on with her life, find someone new with assets to help restart her life. You also need asset base to help look after your children, can't do that living in a tent, well you could but it's not the same as a home

Best of luck for the future

[UNDERDRESSER]

Sheila, from what you have written here, I feel you should seek out the help of a competent sex therapist. Do some research, and try to find one who is thoroughly up to date with gender issues. I have to wonder if you really are transsexual, as opposed to being trans-gender. Once you have gotten some understanding of yourself, then get your wife to do couples counselling, with the same therapist, or possibly someone that they recommend. I strongly feel that there are many issues at play, both in yourself, and with your wife, that are not being recognized.

[ReineD]

i am feeling hurt and sad

Would it help if you knew that the amount of love your wife feels for you would not change; what would change is the type of love. She might not be able to be in a romantic relationship with another woman (just as you would find it difficult being in a romantic relationship with a man), but this doesn't mean that she would stop loving you as a person. The emotional bonds would always be there.

You also say that if it weren't for your wife and kids, you'd transition in a heartbeat except for SRS. Is the expression of Sheila part of your weekly routine? Do you do grocery shopping, banking, other errands, go out to lunch, etc, every few days (more than a few times per month)? This might be difficult to accomplish with young children and all the obligations that come with kids, but if you could manage going out at least twice per week and keep this up for some years, you might think differently about transition at the end of it. If you are not going out as much as you would like, then is there a possibility that out of frustration you are coming to the conclusion that you would like to dress all the time.

Would you and your wife consider telling your kids about Sheila in order to make it easier for you to go out, for example a quick jaunt out on a weekday night right after dinner for a few hours, and then back home in time to read them a bedtime story? I don't know if you live in a part of the world where doing this is feasible and if your wife would go for this.

If you already go out several times per week and interact often with people at large, then please ignore everything I've said after the first paragraph.

[Barbara Black]

I don't disagree with you CherylFlint, entirely. if you continue to waver on what path to take, you will not take any path, and you, and probably others will be sad and angry for the rest of your lives. I suggest (and I have no degree in anything that gives me the insight needed here), that you and your wife talk out ALL of the possibilities and their consequences, and then make your plans, Not hopes, plans. The rest of your lives are on the line here and living unhappily isn't the way to go, for any of you.

[DonnaT]

Her telling you she wasn't sure she could stay with you if you decided to transition is probably her way of trying to keep you from thinking about transitioning, since she knows how much you love her and your children. I can only guess at the reason, since you didn't elaborate on what you told her when y'all were talking about how things were with your dressing.

This is a form of emotional blackmail.

She said she would rather leave now while she is still young, which i took as, she wants to be with other men . . . Case in point: As far as our sex life, I am lucky if we have sex once a month... it was like this even before she found out about my cross dressing and for about 16 years...

If she's not interested in sex, why would she leave to be with another man? Instead of thinking this would be her reason for saying what she did, you really need to ask her. To find out if she's no longer interested in sex, or in sex with you, and why, since it became an issue before she knew of your CDing. An answer to that question may make it easier to make a decision.

[KellyJameson]

Men often make the mistake of loving a woman "to much" and end up smothering her. Being emotionally needy can be a really big turn off, particularly sexually because it communicates psychic impotence.

How this could be expressed could be social anxiety, unsure of oneself, passive/aggressive, easily dominated, submissive,ect...

A feminine male can attract a woman but only if it is an aspect of his more pronounced masculinity, otherwise he risks attracting a woman who has severe trust issues and very possibly was abused my men so looks for a passive man who is non threatening and can be controlled.

Your words leave me with the impression there is a serious power imbalance in your relationship. It is very difficult for a heterosexual woman to be sexually attracted to a male who she experiences as "powerless" (impotent)

Transitioning should come out of identity but identifying as a woman and with women for healthy reasons that are psychologically sound.

Women are not weak like many men think they are so a weak man "does not a woman make". Women are powerful but it is simply a different type of power from men. A complementary power.

Femininity is not passivity and it is not submission as helplesssness. This is male thinking as an expression of their sexuality.

Men often distort the concept of femininity because they define it through the prism of their own sexuality. This does not capture the more nuanced meaning of femininity that women apply to themselves.

I would urge you to think carefully about why you would or want to transition. It concerns me that you appear unable to hold your own in a relationship with a woman.

To transition out of "passivity" would be deadly to you in my opinion. You have to be an extremely strong woman to transition. You must be able to standly firmly on your own two feet completely independent and autonomous or you will not survive it.

To transition into a woman while keeping male sexuality would seem to me to be a receipe for psychological disaster because you will be trying to be two different things at the same time. This very much reminds me of what causes gender dysphoria. That splitting into two things that have an adversarial relationship with each other.

I'm not sure you truly understand women "in relationship to men" and what they need and want from men because you are trying to get something from them you very possibly should not be trying to get. I see men making this mistake with women constantly because they do not understand a womens mind or heart. They do not understand her at an instinctual level because they are not in ownership of these instincts.

If you have been dominated by women your whole life or if being dominated by women excites you or in some way emotionally satisfies a need in you , THIS IS NOT GENDER IDENTITY ! but male sexuality combined with some type of possible past abuse or unhealthy co-dependency.

Become the strongest person you can possibly be and than if in this strength you identify as a woman than you will know it is out of strength and not weakness that your identity comes out of.

You want your gender identity to be an expression of personal power, not weakness, passivity, dependency or helplessness.

If you want a woman to be sexual with you, than you have to be powerful in those ways that sexually excite her.

An example would be being physically fit. Another is the power of touch that comes out of the power of understanding, gained through experience and knowledge.

Women are sexually responsive but the response happens on many different levels for many different reasons but all the reasons have a common thread.

[cassiekat]

Wow Kelly Jameson that was a very enlightening post.

[ReineD]

OK, that's it. Kelly would you marry me??

On a more serious note, you understand this very well.

[CherylFlint]

Dear KellyJameson,
I think that you very well may have written the best comment to any post ever. I think that’s kind of what I wanted to say but didn’t even know it.
Thank you again.
I must learn to be more diplomatic.
I was lucky with my SO. From the very start she was in charge.
On a Weds. we met at a steak house and I told her that I liked to “relax” playing “dress-up”.
She said she didn’t know what to think about that but invited me over to her apartment that Saturday so I could “dress” for her.
Well, when I came out of the bathroom in a conservative outfit (medium length skirt, blouse) the first thing she said was, “Let me help you with your make-up”.
About a year later we were married and have been for about 20 years.
When she wants me dressed, she’ll just say, “Get dressed” and off I go to the second bedroom where, most of the time, she’ll have laid-out what she wants me to wear.
She likes to dress me and I like it just fine, although she never picks my favorite outfits, which is the “hooker” look.
Anyway, she’s in charge and its worked-out very well. She is dominate and as long as she’s happy, I’m happy. There’s no whips and chains, or pain involved here. We have never cheated on the other and we are happy.
There’s some give-and-take involved. I would like to dress more often but it’s her call. Sometimes she’ll have me dress everyday for a week, and she’ll even tell me what to wear in bed. Many a night I’ve slept in my bra and a nightgown.
Then there’s times when she doesn’t want to see Cheryl for a couple of weeks.
However, when she’s gone for the day I can dress as I please while I do the housework. And when she comes home she’ll let me stay dressed or tell me to change.
My favorite outfits around the house are black gloves, black merry widow, high heels, black seamed stockings.
This has been going on for 20 years.
Wouldn’t change it for anything.
There’s women out there who would like what my wife has.

[Tina_gm]

Something I want to touch on, when you stated that what you would do if you were single and without responsibility is not as relevant as many think IMO. Regardless of CDing or not, all of us who are in serious committed relationships would do a lot of things differently "if."

Stating such a thing to your wife will only add to her insecurities, and will likely make her feel that she is holding you back. How much she feels she loves you will not matter when dealing with her own emotions of insecurity or a genuine feeling that she is preventing you from internal happiness. She may feel that she will want to set you free out of pure unconditional love. Is that what you really want?

Now, the reality of the situation, one that I believe you are describing of many of us here. The reality is that we are somewhere in some crazy mixed up gender soup. No matter what, should you choose your gender issues to be your top priority, YOU will have to make a lot of hard sacrifices. I am not saying this is a wrong choice. It is just a reality. If you choose to stay with your wife and kids, you will be making some hard sacrifices gender wise, but being that your wife does know of your CDing, it is not a total sacrifice to express your femininity.

You must look deep into yourself and decide which path of sacrifice YOU will ultimately feel best about. Will continuing to be in your marriage be the better, or least difficult route, or to go on without her while freeing yourself totally for gender purposes?

While I would say definitely be honest with your wife about CDing in general, I do not feel that you should state your feelings about what you would do "if" as there is no real reason to add that. Her life would be different "if" as well. What is most important at least for now is finding a way you can maintain being her husband, while continuing to be able to express yourself to keep your sanity. IF that is a path you feel you can take and if that is a path you really want to take.

[Marcelle]

Hi Sheila,

Before responding I took the opportunity to read some of your past posts to get an understanding of how integrated Sheila is into your life. From what I have read, I get the impression she is quite prevalent in your life. I also note you have been seeing a therapist and last year at this time you were contemplating HRT and had undergone laser beard removal. Now, these things in and of themselves do not mean you are TS (but then again you know your own mind better than we do) but as my therapist indicated to me when I started laser beard removal . . . it is a sign that you may (emphasis on the may before people pile on) be moving toward the right on the TG spectrum. As such, it is understandable that your wife may also be seeing these as signs hence the recent "what if you transition" talk.

I guess my question to you would be. . . are you TS? Have you discussed this with your therapist as she/he would be the best person to counsel you on the way forward and perhaps provide insight into how best to broach this subject with your wife. Communication about this is difficult and broaching potential "end game (transition)" would be even harder. However, as I am sure many Trans women will tell you, if you are indeed TS, it will become increasingly harder to fight the need to align your birth sex with you true gender. Hiding it, pushing it down and hoping for the best might get you through a few more years, but eventually it will become harder and harder and take an emotional toll on your and your family if some sort of accord cannot be reached.

My advice, by all means discuss this with your wife as you know her best but don't discount your professional help (therapist) in times like this. We can provide advice but it is based on personal experience and that might not synchronize with your own personal situation.

Hugs

Isha

[Beverley Sims]

With children and a policy of family first, maybe a ten year hiatus or more.

Something like the rest of us have had to "endure" over the years.

[c2candice]

Hi Sheila,
I truly sympathize with your situation. I am in a very similar situation. Here are my thoughts and suggestions

Realize that you are definitely not alone!
Find and see a sex our family counsellor that is actually versed in the struggles of CDs and or trans people. There are all sorts of them out there, and finding one that suits you is a big challenge, but the reward will be huge for you and your wife. It has helped my wife and I tremendously.
No matter what decision you make, there will ALWAYS be a compromise. No way around it with a wife and kids.
I think when asking yourself whether you should wait to transition, you should first come to terms that no matter when you decide it will be difficult. Even if your kids are grown up (over 18, or out of the house), you will still find that they will hold you back from making the decision for yourself. The fear of rejection, social stigma, a sense of protecting their best interest will still be there. If you truly want to do this, do it sooner than later. As you say, if you make that choice your wife is going to leave. So might as well do it now. You will probably find that you can make amicable arrangements for everybody involved. Just think if you make the decision to wait, you will harbor resentment, and that will turn into regret. Bad place to be.

Be strong. Make decisions for you. If you make them for everybody else, you will not be happy, and everybody else around you will not be happy.

I should follow my own advice!

Hugs,
Candice

[Krisi]

You can't really expect your wife to stay with you if you transition. Like most women, she married a man and expected you to stay a man. Staying with you would make her effectively a lesbian and that may be something she doesn't want to become. There's also the loss of the physical feeling of sex with a man. Sometimes a wife will stay with a man who transitions but it's pretty rare.

How about the children whose father is now another mother? How embarrassing is that?

It's going to be a difficult decision for you so make sure you know what you want and what it will cost.