Transpeople and nudists/naturists?

[Kali]

My wife and I were at a party last weekend with about a dozen couples when the conversation turned to nudist resorts. Apparently most of these couples had been to either family friendly or adult only resorts of this nature and they were talking about their experiences with them (overall positive responses), though they seemed to agree that they were more comfortable at the adult only venues.

My wife and a few of her friends go to lcal nude beaches in the summer; personally I've never been interested in wandering around in public naked (body image issues anyone?). But as they were talking about their activities at adult only nude resorts I asked the first question that came to mind "Why did these places have gendered changing rooms/restrooms?"

One of the women immediately responded "It wouldn't be safe otherwise" and a bunch of the other women agreed with her. When I pressed, I couldn't get an answer as to why it would be unsafe to have non-gendered facilities.

Before I could ask which facility they thought I should use (I knew most of the people and they know that I am transitioning) one of the husbands defused the conversation by starting a conversation about just using the "Family" marked facilities in public locations in general. A couple other husbands jumped on that answer and guided the conversation elsewhere.

What surprised me was how vehement the women were that the changing rooms/bathrooms were their "safe" place even at a nudist resort. And I was glad we were at a private home with ungendered bathrooms.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I mentioned this in another thread.

I think its a big strategic mistake for trans people to take the position that "its no big deal". It is a big deal to others.

I don't have all the answers but i do think its important to acknowledge that.

In another thread i asked this "is it reasonable for men and women to have private spaces? and the follow on would be isn't it therefore reasonable for them to expect those private places to be safe and private?

My answer is yes...and then the follow on question is what should the standard be for a cd or a tg or a ts to enter a private space?? not an easy answer .. bathrooms seem a bit different than locker rooms to me but people don't always agree on that either...in bathrooms its all about the stall, the locker room is much more open

[Krisi]

In our western society, people have been raised for hundreds of years to believe that men and women who aren't family should have separate restrooms. Being nude doesn't change that.

[Melissa Rose]

Feeling safe is not always about physical safety. Some women view restrooms or changing rooms as places where they can freely talk without men being present - sort of a temporary "girl's clubhouse". If someone is not viewed or considered to be a woman (regardless of it being right or wrong, misguided or misinformed) and they enter that space, it no longer feels totally safe. IMHO, it is not all about safety in the physical sense, but also about safety in an expressive, comfort, privacy and emotional sense.

[Krisi]

I think it's both.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right its both...in fact, its more the emotional sense than physical in my opinion

[Dawn cd]

There's some irony in the fact that being nude in a large crowd is relatively safe. Potential abusers must be careful when everyone's watching. Abuse is more likely in a confined, private space. So it seems appropriate to have gender-based changing rooms.

[Ann Louise]

Men, in general, have an abysmal, millenia-long record of treating women like dirt, mentally and physically, and I don't think I need to enumerate some of the ways here. Given the long-term male track record, it therefore does not surprise me that natal women with zero exposure to genuine transgender people like us, and worse yet, those women fed trans-bigotry and hate by those they grew up with and around, would regard the whole bathroom thing with suspicion.

[Jorja]

Well you know, we would definitely attack every woman that came into the restroom. After all, we are all perverts dressed as women. Shoot, I can't tell what my rape count is up to now. It has to be in the millions. Maybe even in the billions.

Their fears are unfounded but they are going to error on the side of safety no matter what, always.

[KellyJameson]

I strongly agree with Kaitlyn and Ann.

If anyone can empathize with cis gendered women it should be trans women. How could you not understand the concerns of your own gender?

Anyone simply by stating so, can now "identify as a woman". By simple logic it can be stated that not all people who identify as a woman are in fact actually transsexual woman. Any reasonably intelligent cisgendered woman understands this.

I genuinely like and love men as a gender and many as individuals. I would even say I prefer the company of men over women because women are to similar to me and occasionally I need an escape from myself so do not want to hang out with others like me (other woman).

With that said I'm still very sensitive to the "Perv factor" or said in another way "The creepy guy factor"

There can be a real darkside to male sexuality. Does not mean that there cannot be with women but simply the darkside with men is generally more destructive and threatening and women are less able to defend themselves against a man where he can more readily defend himself against a woman.

As a footnote many men are raped by other men because rape is about power, often mixed with revenge for what was done to the rapist in the past.

Women need and deserve safe spaces and not all of the reasons have to do with men but the simple need for privacy often born out of being in a body that is constantly objectified and scrutinized. Privacy becomes a form of psychological protection from being in a body everyone is laying claim to.

In general men do not seem to have this same need for privacy. Individual men yes but collectively measured against women, I strongly doubt it.

As a woman I'm sensitive to the needs of women because I can empathize with their needs and fears. Coming from this place I would not want to make another woman uncomfortable and would make every effort not to, out of the understanding that "anyone" can identify as a trans woman.

I was extremely careful concerning bathrooms not only for my own safety but out of a deep understanding and sympathy I have for their emotional needs and fears. Ones that I actually have myself. I have been "creeped out" many a time by men because of how they were expressing their sexuality.

Other women should not have to pay for my being born transsexual. I personally would not and could not support anyone who is not sensitive to this.

It is my strong belief that transsexual women have an obligation to protect all women, balanced against expanding their own rights and protections.

Transsexual women are not the problem but those who do things in her name, born out of anyone being able to label themselves a woman.

This is the problem of gender identity not being tied to the physical body.

If we want our rights expanded we must protect the innocent who may be harmed in our name.

As a woman I would be willing to forego some measure of personal convenience if this is necessary to purchase a sense of security for all women, because in the end I also want this for myself.

[Karen62]

I agree, as usual, with the wisdom of Kelly. Perhaps cis women need a safe spot where they know they can separate from any perceived threats from men, be they verbal, an aggressive, leering look, a genuine physical threat, or just a place to get away from common male scrutiny for a short moment or a longer while.

On a related note about the empathy for women's need for security, I have a very distinct memory of watching the TV show "Designing Women" when it was first shown (yes, I am old). There was an episode in 1989 called "Stand and Fight" in which one of the characters, Mary Jo, was mugged, and it moves all the women to take a self-defense course. Mary Jo has the hardest time standing up in the class through her fear. At the end of the show, Mary Jo finds herself alone in a parking garage late at night when she encounters a man acting somewhat suspiciously odd, a bit unpredictably, and potentially threatening. She uses her newly learned skills to successfully avert the threat, much to her surprise and satisfaction, only to find out moments later that the man in question was actually a new client looking for their business. The potential for embarrassment was released when the man apologized to Mary Jo for not taking her safety into account, and he said he supported her, as he had a daughter whom he wished would do what she did int he same circumstance.

As a young guy, that episode really hit a chord with me (I've always been strongly empathetic -- to a fault!). What I took from that show was how my presence (displaying as a male) itself alone was a potential threat to a woman who did not know me, even if I had not one threatening thought or intention in my body. From that day forward, anytime I found myself in a stairwell at work or in a parking garage and there was also a lone woman there, I always slowed down my pace to allow her to have more space between me and her. I also always walked a little bit louder so she knew where I was. Walking behind a woman in the dark is similar - I reduce my pace and make my presence known with a scuffle of my shoes or a small clearing of the throat or a little cough that clearly indicates I am not gaining on them, but actually trailing off in the back of them as she continues onward. I was very conscious to never be threatening in any means or manner to these women; I wanted them to feel just a bit safer, knowing that me as a stranger was no threat to them. (Unlike Jorja, apparently! )

If women want a safe place, even in a nudist resort, I can understand. Yes, what the hell am I going to do as a transitioning transwoman is a valid question (I would feel just as insecure and unsafe as they being in a men's locker room with long hair and developing breasts, even if it was just over simple modesty, but also being highly cognizant of a threat of physical violence). Luckily, I am NOT inclined to visit a nudist resort, so for me, that's one problem averted from the start.

Karen

P.S. I recently bought the DVDs of this show -- some of the best writing in television was done for this show (at least for seasons 1-5). I loved seeing them all again.

[ReineD]

Habit?

Your friends are only occasional visitors to nudist colonies and for the most part they live in the clothed-world, so they are still greatly influenced by the values of the society we are all raised in.

I wonder what it was like for humans before there was clothing, if they lived in temperate zones. Would they have covered their breasts/genitals for modesty reasons? Would they have needed to relieve themselves in private, although I can see a need to do so away from the tribe for reasons of sanitation.

Was there a mutual-consent social contract then for sex, or would any man have taken any woman he wanted and is this how we came to accept our chattel status after millions of years of having been subjugated by men.

Sorry for the dark thoughts. lol. But I wonder.

You mention the conversation having veered before the discussion of being TS while living in a non-clothed world, or in a world where everyone wore the same skins for warmth. How do you feel about that. How do you think you would live. I'm thinking that in such a world (before surgeries were possible), your only choice would have been to adopt a woman's role and the others would have recognized it. Like the Fa'afafine. There has got to be something about accepting people as they are, when everyone is naked.

[Aprilrain]

As a woman I would be willing to forego some measure of personal convenience if this is necessary to purchase a sense of security for all women, because in the end I also want this for myself.

What does this mean?

Like all your posts, Kelly, it's well written yet vague and divulges nothing personal about you, your experiences or your transition nor does it actually take any particular position though it sounds rather strong.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I noticed that nobody really answered my questions...maybe you took them for rhetorical but actually they highlight the impossibility of making everybody happy on this...

I bet you a nickel Reine that women and men took their craps in different places, and i bet another nickel that there were times when women and men found gender oriented privacy...i bet men often took whatever woman they wanted at almost any time and women lived in constant wariness of being taken..

quick story i've told before...

years ago some cd friends asked me to go out with them...they told me that they never really went to the mall or shopping and i obliged...we all went out .... we got to a big chain store and we went into the changing rooms ...this particular store had a big women's and mens changing room with attached rest rooms.... they proceeded to try on outfit after outfit and take pictures...i was horrified and felt humiliated...i told them it was disgusting and it ruined the rest of the day and in fact now that i think of it i never saw them again....

this the emotional part of it... and i actually can relate to how those guys felt...i know they didn't mean any harm, i know they were not dangerous but how many women would like to walk into a dressing room and see two guys taking pictures of themselves in bras...how many women would be happy to know that a couple guys came in and tried on all the clothes and took picture after picture.

Some folks say "in a perfect world, there is no need for private gender space"....why?? i say gender is the primary organizing factor in human life and private gender space is a good and natural thing..

Its not about accepting people for who they are Reine, that's a strawman statement. You can accept people for who they are and actually respect their gender..

In fact, you need to accept women for who they are (generally speaking) and allow them their privacy and freedom to be private at times..
In fact, i accept that crossdressers are men, and i accept that gender queer people are gender queer, but that doesn't mean they have the right to invade a private space...

in the end, i cannot believe that its even an issue that a man can simply identify as female for a day and feel its his/her right to walk into a woman's space...the fact that people care so much is a sign that this type of privacy is valuable to people

[LeaP]

Kaitlyn, why should anyone answer the question when you did such a nice job of it yourself in your last post?

The key is in your phrase "gender is the primary organizing factor in human life". I suppose I might say "a primary organizing factor," but that's quibbling. The problem is that the details are as much cultural as they are prompted by biology. So while I agree with the concept, whether it boils down to restrooms or, say, something like initiation ceremonies is another thing.

Maybe a better question is to ask whether the gendered restroom question is any different than prior restroom controversies. Off the top of my head, I can list socioeconomic status/class, race, and handicapped accommodation. You can add to that any number of additional factors that result in secondary impact to either access or the quality of restrooms, such as rank, membership, employment status and so on. When you think about it, maybe it's peeing that is a primary organizing factor in human life.

In any event, all of them revolved around tribal concepts of likeness. All of them at one time involved elements of aversion (or contempt or disgust). And they reflected the actual structure of society, not just pandering to sensibilities. Is gendered space any different? Yes and no. No in that our society has strong structural roots in gender. Yes in that SEX is even more fundamental than something like race.

Still, sex and gender barriers are falling everywhere in Western society. It's increasingly buttressed in myriad ways by our legal system. So cross-sex public restroom access is already happening and will become universal.

That actually surprises me. Because – finally getting to your point – human history associated with intermingling of men and women in separate spaces have revolved around concepts of gender and gender role and not sex per se. Living permanently in a gender role = access. Simple ... until you get to the modern muddle with gender variation whereby people assume part-time roles and mixed identities and political concepts like transgender where presentation can fully oppose identity. I would have expected us to settle the restroom controversy relatively easily around the definitive point of SRS, at least for now, as it addresses both the full-time role aspect as well as a significant portion of the safety concern. It leaves a lot of issues on the table, but it would be a common starting point.

I think gendered spaces are reasonable where they are not used to explicitly support discriminatory collusion. While the safety concern is vastly overblown given the current population that uses (or attempts to use) restrooms in cross-sexed fashion, I don't believe it is overblown as it applies to completely open access. E.g., men in male presentation using restrooms simultaneously with women, and I think it fair to raise the identity point with CDs (at least).

In short, I support access for post-ops without issue, by right and reason. I would support access by way of reason alone for those in transition or who have otherwise moved to a permanent cross-gender role if a mechanism existed to validate them in the event of a question. A gender marker on a legal identity document would certainly do it, as the ability to change them is regulated. Perhaps a legally formalized carry letter could work also. I do not support access for those not permanently living in the cross gender role or who are not in transition.

[lesli]

social training and taboo's aside, i don't feel safe in a mixed sex environment when alone or a guy's changing room in drab. there are a lot of crazies, aren't we all, in the world, but there are some that love to hurt other people and bathrooms and changing rooms are a place where we can become vulnerable.

[Mary Lee]

Reine,
Over in vietnam out in the field men and women just did there business ware ever they were. There was areas in the villages designated for doing ones business and not men or women. And it seemed like sex was no big deal. I was never in the big cities like Saigon.

[ReineD]

I was at a small, country restaurant in France in the early 1980s. Not a fancy place at all. The bathrooms were unisex which at the time was a novel experience for me. There were two stalls for privacy, no urinals and a common hand washing area with mirrors. Everyone was OK with it!

In later years I noticed that mall retail clothing stores geared to the younger set had one long changing section in the back with private stalls of course, but a wide hallway in front of the stalls with large mirrors for both men and women to use. There was at least an 18" clearance from the bottom of the stall doors to the floor which made it easy to see if the person occupying the stall was male or female. No one batted an eye!

Kaitlyn, I was thinking of open-minded societies when referring to people who accept everyone as they are. There was no option for surgery in Samoa centuries ago, and the Fa-afafine were recognized and honored as women. I should think that if we all lived in a naked world, we'd be more open to see who a person is internally. There wouldn't be so many distractions, so many opportunities to attach a gendered meaning to all the extraneous things like clothing or adornment that we now use to identify ourselves.

[Jeninus]

The issue of a transgender's right to use the facility of the opposite sex is a perennial debate. Even here, we see that the TS input suggests that women need this space and privacy - and since TS are women, they of course have the right to use the facilities but that TG/CD do not. (Sort of slamming the door in our faces after they get in.) This raises the interesting question of whether a pre-op TS should ALSO be excluded from the Ladies' Room because she can't prove she has had the necessary SRS and, after all, it's only her word that she's TS and not a mere, lowly, creepy, fetishistic TG/CD.

Evidently, TG/CD must continue to live in an apartheid restroom arrangement, despite the fact that they may be making meticulous efforts to maximize their feminine presentation; and therefore forced to use the Men's Room despite being subjected thereby to harassment and/or physical attack. Normally, all they want to do is to relieve themselves and get back into the mall or restaurant as quickly as possible.

That males don dresses to get into the Ladies' Room so they can leer at women is a red herring that has been pretty well debunked, although instances of misuse of the facilities by creeps exist. See: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...-bathro/198533

[Ann Louise]

Sort of slamming the door in our faces after they get in.

Wow, that's cold. And I'm part of another "they" now? Thanks, but I do not accept your categorization of me. BTW, All the TG/TS here are are part of my "we," even you.

[Aprilrain]

This raises the interesting question of whether a pre-op TS should ALSO be excluded from the Ladies' Room because she can't prove she has had the necessary SRS and, after all, it's only her word that she's TS and not a mere, lowly, creepy, fetishistic TG/CD.

Here in Ohio I was able to change the gender marker on my DL with a letter from a doctor, no SRS required. I did that when I changed my name which was the day I went full time. My senario makes your argument moot. You see, had I been questioned about being in a woman's restroom it would not have been "just my word" I would have had the full legitimacy of the state of Ohio to back me up. As a full time transitioner I did not have the option of changing back into male clothes and being perceived as "normal" This was my life 24/7 not just a few hours on one night once a month.

You imply that the only difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual is SRS? I've spent the best part of 4 years going through hell as a last ditch effort not to have to kill myself so I could become one of the most misunderstood, maligned and marginalized "members" of society and somehow in your mind that is equal to playing dress up for the day?
Personally I do not care if CDers ues the ladies room and I agree that the whole thing is a red herring and a total nonissue that has been fabricated by right wing religious DBs but don't waltz into the TS section with attitude and suggest that we're all in the same boat.

[becky77]

This will always be divisive. I get the point Reine made, strip the clothes away for a moment and forget genitalia, in one section are the men, because they identify as men no other reason, not clothes not genitalia. In the other section are the women also purely because they identify as women. Now without clothes where would the crossdresser go? As most identify as men they can't go in the womens section, so where do they go?
The oddity about this, is if they were happily in the male section (I say to those who are secure in their masculinity). Why do they suddenly think they can infiltrate the female camp if they just put some female attire on? They still think like a man?

In this day and age there should be genderless changing rooms, I know crossdressers that are very uncomfortable about using the female rooms as they are more aware of the difference. But you can't expect them to use the male either. It really is unfair and will continue to be so, until the day society recognises that there are tons of folks who live someone in between.

[Deane]

What's with the bathroom phobias here? Seriously, everyone knows that everyone else pees and poops, right? No secrets? Put up some walls around the cans, some walls between the pissers, and let nature take its course.

Imagine the cost savings if restaurants only had to have one bathroom... (and I've seen people suggest that restaurants should have to build a 3rd bathroom for ts/tg/cd! That's ridiculous!)

As for the safety issue, because apparently bathrooms are home to muggers and rapists, with 1 bathroom there'd be twice the traffic, making it harder to find the time to rape some poor girl with a full bladder.

This also has me fantasizing about a future society where I could walk into a public bathroom, walk up to the urinal, lift my skirt and pee away as if there was nothing wrong with that. Oh well....

[becky77]

What's with the bathroom phobias here? Seriously, everyone knows that everyone else pees and poops, right? No secrets? Put up some walls around the cans, some walls between the pissers, and let nature take its course.

This also has me fantasizing about a future society where I could walk into a public bathroom, walk up to the urinal, lift my skirt and pee away as if there was nothing wrong with that. Oh well....

First off, there is a difference. Although I have experienced some truly filthy women leaving a mess, generally the female toilets are cleaner. Countless male toilet cubicles have been urinated all over, why men can't sit down in a cubicle I don't know?? But they don't, their aim is poor and I don't want to deal with that thank you.

As for walking upto a urinal and lifting up your skirt, well that pretty much shows why you don't get the issue. While men still think and pee like men, they won't understand why women don't want them in their bathroom.

[Sammy777]

To the OP: Nudist camp = go to the Men's room FFS.

This raises the interesting question of whether a pre-op TS should ALSO be excluded from the Ladies' Room because she can't prove she has had the necessary SRS and, after all, it's only her word that she's TS and not a mere, lowly, creepy, fetishistic TG/CD.

Evidently, TG/CD must continue to live in an apartheid restroom arrangement, despite the fact that they may be making meticulous efforts to maximize their feminine presentation.

what2.jpg

First it would be impossible for a pre-op TS to prove she's had SRS, seeing how as a pre-op she obviously hasn't.

But lets see.... how might a transitioning pre-op TS prove She is not "a mere, lowly, creepy, fetishistic TG/CD"?

Perhaps the TS can, oh I don't know, provide Paul the mall cop with documentation from any of the following people currently involved in their transition like a Counselor, Therapist, Psychiatrist, GP/Doctor or Endocrinologist.

Or maybe they can just show them their ID with the little F next to "sex".
[Some states allow gender marker changes before SRS, sadly many still do not.]

Just because a CD'er spends four hours "making meticulous efforts to maximize their feminine presentation" before running to the mall to window shop and snicker about all the women wearing pants, it does not make them a TS for the afternoon.

Sorry, but if a TS "isn't feeling it" on a particular day she can't just sit home and sulk about her missed "girl time" or jump back into "guy mode" and git er done. Basically we don't have the time to spend countless hours "getting pretty" before we step into the world. We are lifers, this is not something we do three days a month and two weeks out of the year.

So excuse us if we sometimes shoot for "good enough" rather then "project runway" and Please tell me the comment of yours above was not some thinly veiled "we make better looking girls then you do" so we should get what you get -slam. Because that's what it feels like.

Because to be quite honest, I feel that your whole argument boils down to nothing more then a petulant child throwing a tantrum screaming "Its not fair! Why do they get to do it and I can't?" or "I want an oompa loompa now!"