Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

[Alice Torn]

It seems like so many more MTF dressers, and TG, and TS, than FTM. Any ideas why? Is it the desire to be non macho, and to be pretty, and beautiful, or something deeper? I think part of it is men feeling like they are obsolete, and that men are not needed anymore. Female beauty is valued more, than masculinity. My dad wanted all daughters, but got three sons, and his first child, a handicapped daughter. He was frustrated,resented his sons, but would be aghast if he knew i dressed up beautifully.

[vicky_cd99_2]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

[Alice Torn]

Vicky, that could be.

Tara, I tend to agree. Males are restricted, in roles, and clothing, kind of like "straight jacketed", and it is very confining, and stifling. Dressing is kind of an escape from that.

[Sarah-RT]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

I like to think this is a possibility of why we are the way we are, since supposedly we start off as female before becoming male, i figure maybe somethings get muddle along the way.

[Taragirl427]

Thats a pretty big question. I'd say that since no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight. My personal $.02 is that males are a lot more restricted in their roles and behavior by society than females are. Its a lot more acceptable for a woman to have masculine tendencies than a man to have feminine ones. So perhaps guys with feminine tendencies feel the need to suppress and hide these things and it manifests as CDing. IIRC true TS are rare. Probably both FtM and MtF. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a spectrum of behavior for both genders but for males it seems more pressure is placed on them to conform and be "manly". I think those restrictions are loosening though, these days. Hope that made sense!

[Kate T]

I am going to agree with what the various moderators have said. There are PLENTY of FTM's out there. The following study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299544/

is a GOOD quality peer reviewed study of transgender individuals in Ontario, Canada, where there were MORE FTM respondents than MTF (227 FTM vs 205 MTF). So the original premise is false.

It is concerning that FTM do not feel included in these forums. Perhaps they see the forum as less about gender and more about "crossdressing"? Don't know. Whilst there is NO indication that it is easier for an FTM to be accepted socially there is evidence that someone who identifies as FTM is far more likely to describe themselves as "genderqueer" than someone who identifies as MTF. Maybe a "genderqueer" forum would have more FTM's present. Personally I think it is a terrible shame that we do not have more FTM members as I think they provide a fascinating perspective "from the other side of the fence" so to speak.

[sometimes_miss]

Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them. A woman can wear men's clothing with no one ever noticing at all. The opposite is not true. AFA mtf TS, that again is a reflection on what is currently 'allowed' by our society as well. A woman can be a lumberjack, plumber, soldier, cop, etc., in fact, society has made many exceptions in what is required for lots of professions where physical strength used to prevent women from entering those jobs. However, you don't see much of the reverse, I suppose mostly because of the stigma connected. Men are still subject to ridicule should we want to be a nurse, hairdresser, secretary, flight attendant, server with any all female staff, etc.. While it's still pretty common for men to poke fun at other guys in those professions, you don't hear any jokes about women in men's professions. It's because a man wanting to take a traditionally female place in society is still looked at as a step down in status, whereas a woman doing the opposite is considered taking a step up.

no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight.

Actually, that's not quite right. While we can't determine the reasons why ALL of us crossdress, for some, it's pretty obvious. Others, not so much. The big stumbling block is trying to define everyone with one stroke of the brush. This is primarily because what we do is considered by many to be a disease, and modern medicine always tries to narrow down the disease cause into one, single thing. However, what it is, is behavior. And you can't determine a behavior as the result of one, single cause. In fact, I'm still surprised that anyone here still posts questions about this. Maybe the search function still doesn't work?

[Sara Jessica]

Right, all this societal stuff figured into what was in my brain at the age of 4 or 5

[Andy66]

Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them.

Yes, thats pretty much what I was going to say.

[Tammy12]

One aspect is that Mothers take more of an early role in child raising than the Father. This gives the Mother more opportunity for influence, if she chooses.

[Sandra]

There is FtMs around but most people assume that they are butch lesbians and are ignorant to the fact that FtMs even exist.

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.

[flatlander_48]

Something I read recently stated that traditionally F2M's had been under reported, but that current trends had been working in the direction of closing the gap. Anyway, that deals with the statistical aspect, but not the underlying question.

Of the 2 groups that I've become involved with recently, one is about 50/50 crossdressers to transexuals and the other is maybe 75% transexuals and 25% crossdressers. Neither are what I would have expected.

DeeAnn

[Dianne S]

There are far more MtF cross-dressers because wearing men's clothes usually does nothing for women. Wearing women's clothes is exciting or relaxing for (some) men for a whole variety of reasons that have been endlessly hashed on this forum.

I don't agree about the TS ratio, though. I believe there are about as many FtM as MtF transsexuals. It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.

DeeAnn's comment is interesting. I joined a local support/social group in 1993, and it was about 90% crossdressers / 10% transsexuals. For a variety of reasons, I dropped out of the trans community around 1995 and only rejoined in late 2013. That same local support/social group now consists of about 65% transsexuals / 35% crossdressers, a huge shift from before. (And I've shifted from believing I was a CD in the 1990s to knowing I'm TS in 2014.)

[Sandra]

It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.

See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

[Zylia]

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.

As for 'real' numbers, in the Netherlands, the one institute that handles most gender issues in the country reports a 3 to 1 ratio of MTFs to FTMs. One could think that these figures are slanted because more FTMs get by without medical help, but there's no scientific basis for that. A real answer to the question cannot be found without delving into the true cause of gender incongruence, or how people end up with a gender dysphoria diagnosis.

A cross-dresser is almost always MTF. I've yet to meet a genuine FTM cross-dresser with the same emotional (or erotic) needs as the regular MTF crowd. For many if not most cross-dressing men, their cross-dressing is tied to sexual excitement. Men and women have different sexual needs. You might as well ask why there's way more pornographic material aimed at men. For what it's worth, 'autoandrophilia' (i.e. a woman who is aroused by the thought of herself as a man) is deemed non-existent, at least as part of an 'official' DSM diagnosis, by the writers of the latest DSM revision including Blanchard.

[PretzelGirl]

In my area, I can't say that one number is more than the other. I have lots of trans* friends and there are a large number of FTM, MTF, and others across the spectrum (bi-gender, gender queer, gender fluid, etc). I will admit that when I identified as a crossdresser, I saw a lot less of everyone that was outside of the MTF identification. Basically a product of my own thoughts and actions and not the true reality.

[kimdl93]

I don't think our membership is necessarily reflective the relative numbers of FTM and MTF in society. This is a somewhat selective sample. Why? I would guess that very few FTM see themselves primarily as CDrs, but rather see themselves as TG. With that perspective, one can understand that they may tend to seek out forums that are more reflective of their identity, rather than a group that, at least by the name, seems more about clothes preference than gender preference.

[becky77]

Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
(This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).

[Sandra]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.

We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.

Is that really negative commentary or more related to societal perceptions and realities?

Well seeing as the FtMs left they must have taken it as negative commentary. One thing that people need to think about is that most of the FtMs identified as TS and not cders and to be told that they are women and called she/her was a kick in the teeth to them.

[Nadine Spirit]

Throughout history there are examples of cross gender expression from both males and females. So I don't think we can lay "blame" with anything in recent history as to creating gender variant behaviors. Thus things like "males are now obsolete," just don't make sense to me.

As to there not being many FTMs on this site, I think what Sandra is saying would appear to make sense. There is often much discussion here surrounding how great it is to be a woman, well I have to assume that FTMs don't really agree with much of those thoughts.

[Launa]

This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?
Why do so many people think femininity is directly linked to a hemline?

Secondly the FTM, what if they want to be seen as a man, use male toilets and not just be considered an unfeminine woman?
For them it's really hard to be treated like a man and they can't even get respect here.
MtF crossdressers call themselves girls, honey etc etc despite identifying as male and just being in it for the clothes. But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.

Question 1. I didn't say short hair, jeans, running shoes = no femininity. There are millions and billions of GG's that are absolutely gorgeous with short hair, jeans and runners.
I'm talking about the CDing FTM folks.
I am saying that if a FTM CD woman wants to dress a "bit" on the manly side or butchy side and go out in public then so what? Nobody bats an eye. Why come to this site when there is no problem? However take a guy give him some longer hair, a pair of womens Lulu Lemmon pants and casual womens yoga top and jacket but without all the makeup etc and you'll see all the different looks, stares, whispering comments.
Heck I saw another thread on here today that said something about men getting caught wearing panties in the ER room or along those lines..... Yeah if a guy is seen wearing a pair of panties in a situation like that everyone attending might go hmmm? And have a snicker or 2. Take a FTM CDer that's underdressing in male underwear in the same situation and nobody attending would look twice.

Question 2. I don't think femininity is linked to the hemline.

Lastly, I did comment about if the FTM is TS or more on the Trans side of things. I said the playing field is for sure level at that point when your talking about trying to get facial hair, hormones, facial surgery etc. So I am saying its just as hard at that point. Maybe even harder for FTM if they are going all the way with genital reassignment surgery etc.

Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
(This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).

Well I will say you are absolutely right that women have fought dam hard for their rights and should be commended for it for sure. I don't want to take anything away from them by anything I have said at all because the playing field is still not level for women and we have more progress world wide to make. However if a nation with a big majority of men stands up and says we want to wear dresses then it wouldn't be an issue for very long would it? Most men don't see this as a problem in their lives and cringe about the thought of wearing a dress etc. There's not many of us out there.

I really like your question about what are we doing to make progress with our rights instead of bitching!!!! Love it!!!
I can only speak for myself and say I support my Pride center and anything LGBT related anyway I can. I try and give money when I can and will sign any gov't legislation for the better but I am also not the poster boy to go on the front page of a LGBT or Trans magazine. I'm not there but wished I could be.
I'm out in public as much as I can be, unfortunately not enough for my liking because I hate the closet.

[Rianna Humble]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum.

Yours is a not very nice try at blaming staff for the hostility that MtF members demonstrated towards the FtM members. There was a safe area, but as soon as they poked their nose out into the more public areas of the forum, there were people waiting to snipe at them much as you are trying to snipe at staff. Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

If that was the case, they were walking around with blinders on as the original statement was clearly true.

Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

[flatlander_48]

Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

The exodus would have to have happened since July, 2013 in the context of the forum.

You want to know why there aren't more FtMs on this site...check the boards. What do YOU have to offer them? Maybe they have their ducks in a row and don't give a darn about new shoes or panties or sneaking out to feel how it feels to be a guy. Maybe they are just trying to survive

Sorry, Apples and Oranges...

Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

That was NOT an insult. It was a reflection of the perceptions in the general populace and is a statement of fact. I didn't create them and I certainly do not try to perpetuate them. But, regardless of what I said, that does NOT make it any less true.

As a bisexual, I have often heard that we are in perpetual stealth mode as we don't appear any different from anyone else. True. If we wanted to back up from same-sex intimacy, we can always go back to being regular heterosexual people. That is also true. While I'm fairly certain that the opinion is more widespread than the reality, clearly it can and does happen. I cannot change the reality just because I don't like the statement. That's like Revisionist History.

DeeAnn

[Zylia]

We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.

Fair enough. If the FTM members had problems with some members, it's really not that surprising it's a group of CDs, considering CDs is by far the largest group here, but all I want to say is that it doesn't say much about CDs in general. If any group of people on this forum is going to drive me off it probably is a specific group of CDs as well and I'm a CD myself.

Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

Are you serious? Do you even know me?

[Launa]

I am a Trans member that will say FTM do have an easier time crossdressing in the world than the MTF. Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman. The FTM can still use the female washrooms without causing a national riot etc.... Hell I grew my hair long in the mid 80's still wore all male clothes back in the day and people had 40 fits over it. Just look at this video and tell me that people will generally not bat an eye if they see a woman like this but holy crow if it was a male doing the opposite we'd have a huge problem!

Now I will say the "playing field" is very level if we're talking about the TS then its hard for the FTM folks get hair growth, muscle, skeletal structure, voice, getting an Adams apple etc.... Then its just as hard for any TS to get everything they need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwII...yer_detailpage