Misinformation

[LucyNewport]

As an original s***-stirrer on this topic and heretofore confirmed middle-pather, I can only explain what drives me. I go out in full drag on the semi-regular and have for years. I do my best to appear as an ordinary woman - not an over the top drag performer. I try to blend. These activities are generally not sexual in nature but just feel right on a really deep emotional level.

I have mostly used the label of crossdresser to describe myself because it seemed like a safe identity that did not demand much of me. It does not require diagnosis by a medical professional or expensive treatments. Being TS implies an action plan that I wasn't ready to put in motion for a variety of reasons. Being a CD meant I could avoid nuking my marriage.

However, I was never comfortable in my male role. I feel like an imposter when I put on traditional menswear like any sort of professional clothing. Anything more male gendered than my jeans + tshirt uniform makes me very ill at ease. (This is not a reaction I get when I'm dolled up like an office lady.)

The middle path, such as it is, is an unstable and difficult place to be. It means not quite fitting into either camp. It is rarely an end point I think. Personally I feel a bit like an airplane in a holding pattern, trying to pick a runway before the fuel runs out.

[ReineD]

OK, this may come across as callous or blunt, but I truly mean no harm: How resilient is the relationship to begin with if one person makes decisions based on what a few strangers post on forums rather than based on the heartfelt statements of her SO? I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?

Well, this I can address because it's right up my alley.

Even when GGs (sorry, but many? most? some? ... anyway a lot of the GGs I've spoken to) have the conversations with their husbands about not wanting to transition and not wanting to have sex with men, there is still a lot of uncertainty. One, most GGs were not told at the beginning of their relationships, and so they wonder what else their husbands aren't telling them. Trust has already been broken once. But even if they were told in the beginning like me, if their husbands are at the point of going to from point A to D on the crossdressing scale (from mostly closeted while having a small box of clothes, to wanting to go out and expanding the wardrobe, perfecting the appearance, etc), they'll hear the words but because they don't understand the differences between CD and TS, they'll think it's all one and the same thing. So the comments from the TSs who say they used to think of themselves as CD will cause the wives to think, "See? I knew it all along! My husband is going to transition but he's in denial about it").

In a way, you could say that many GGs think of it along the same lines that many TSs do. And it takes a while for a wife to gain a deeper understanding of what this means to her husband.

My SO told me that he actually went into the GM section here, 7 years ago I believe, and asked the members there how he could convince me that he was not transitioning!

I don't know if you read my earlier post, but it is only when a CDer has done developing and perfecting the appearance, has gone out lots in the mainstream to the point of having it not be so new and exciting anymore (which can take 3-4 years or maybe more), and has plateau'd so to speak, that the wife will see with her own eyes that it is not progressing any further to wanting bodily modifications and desiring to come out to all and sundry.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that TSs should stop sharing their personal experiences here, but it's always good to keep in mind the percentages of people who actually do transition vs. those who don't. I think it's important though for TSs to not suggest to CDs who post in the CD section they might be TS. That's a little much. Also, unless things have changed in the TS section since I was involved, people there used to say that they always knew at some level they were TS. So maybe there's a new breed of TSs coming up now, people who honestly did not have a clue they had GD until their 50s?

[Eryn]

It isn't usually, but it can happen.

Sure, after it happens we can look back and say "Yeah, ok there were obvious signs."

But I say again: It can happen that someone who honestly, truly believes he is "just" a crossdresser finds out later in life that she is in fact TS. The fact that there's the Internet today doesn't mean that everyone comes to the realization at an early age.

Thank you, Dianne, for saying precisely what I've been trying to get across. In fact, one can even go from being a "typical" male to CD and then proceed along the spectrum. It all depends upon one's upbringing and peer group. I went through most of my life knowing that I wasn't a CDer because being a CDer was defined in my head as being very abnormal. Something changed in my 50s and I went through the typical slide into CDing. Underdressing, experiments with clothing and makeup, and eventually going out in public. Even at that point I felt a stigma about the TS end of the spectrum and therefore it took me additional time to admit to myself that this might actually be a possibility for me.

Yes, I can also look back at events in my past and see signs that I was on the spectrum then, but I lacked the background to understand those signs.

Geesh! Eryn, overthink this whole thing much? Crossdressing isn't your problem, dude, you need a girlfriend!
Haha, I'm just teasing you honey - much girly love your way, hun! - Annie

Well, I probably did, but the exercise was fun. Everyone talks about quantum effects but most don't know what a quantum effect truly is.

Oh bugger. I just wrote a long response and lost it Because I timed out, I had to log in again and that for some reason didnt go so well.
Oh well.

Suzie, when you log in, check the "remember me" box. The system will then remember you until you log out, eliminating its unfortunate tendency to trash your work. It will forget you as soon as you log out manually. The timeout parameter is changable in the forum software, but this forum has it set very short.

[Suzie Petersen]

Gosh I wish we were sitting all together somewhere nice, having this conversation over a glass of wine!

ReineD: I think this is turning out to be one of the best, most productive conversations we've ever had in the forum between CDers and TSs. There's a lot of honesty in this thread, and no one is getting angry or feeling insulted (as far as I can tell). Really good stuff.

I agree Reine, this is a good debate and it might help us all understand each other better. Thats what it is all about for me, having good productive discussions everybody can learn from and which might later serve as unbiased information for others.

I apologize for hijacking a question for Katey, but I have a comment on the following:

ReineD: You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc). Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.

First, this is really off topic and worthy of another thread.
For me, No, the lack of a sexual stimulation does not mean it has turned towards a desire of transition. I suspect that for some or maybe many TS, it was never sexual but more of a discomfort with the "parts" and the role. But, I dont know this, I am just interpreting what good TS friends have described to me.

The second part, again just for myself, this feeling was never something constant, and there were many many occasions where I didnt even think of it. I always felt comfortable being male and I still do. Every now and then, I enjoyed the feeling of expressing the more traditional female role and be allowed to pretty up. I also really enjoyed the challenge of seeing how perfect I could make the illusion!

Diane S: And also, to me in certain situations, X makes a huge difference. I would not get on a plane that had a 1% chance of crashing, but I'd certainly get on one that had a 0.00001% chance (that's 1 in ten million.)

But thats the ting! Would you actually like the airlines to publicly list that probability on the website when you book your flight? Or would it make you unnecessarily concerned to know what the % chance of survival is this week? For me, I know there is a risk in flying, but I dont really want my choice of airline or route to be influenced by what the % of risk of my sudden death is! I would rather not let that influence my purchase nor my travel. I certainly dont want someone, mid flight, stand up and say "Chances are 1 to 70 that we will all perish during this flight! Just wanted y'all to know!, Have a nice flight!" I want to sit comfortably in my seat, knowing that the rest of those odd's are that I will make it to Salt Lake in one piece!

Diane S: Sorry, I don't actually recall anyone saying "Always", "Most" or "Many." Everything I've read from TSes on this site is that a "few" CDers will eventually transition, but that most will not.

Thats understandable, nobody expect you to remember or have read all posts. But if you go back and read the OP message, that is what this thread is all about. The feeling that some, in one way or another, say that this is the case. Some, All or Most CD'ers will eventually transition. That is the perception some here have gotten from other peoples previous posts. If you now start searching backwards for the exact words Always, Many, Most etc, you are unfortunately missing the point of the debate.

Diane S: I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?

Well yes, thats what this entire thread started out with. Thats the point! SO's come here to verify their fear or to search for statements to the contrary. Not my wife, again this is not at all about me. She has never seen this place and likely never will. It is about those who come here as _The only or first source of information_. It is about what they might deduct from a few posts from someone who sound like they know what they are talking about. It is not about someone who is studying this phenomena of gender. They will understand the stats better.

ReineD: they'll hear the words but because they don't understand the differences between CD and TS, they'll think it's all one and the same thing. So the comments from the TSs who say they used to think of themselves as CD will cause the wives to think, "See? I knew it all along! My husband is going to transition but he's in denial about it").

Exactly, and that obviously creates, or enforces, a concern which may not at all be justified. When you listen to how solid the "evidence" is, the person who says "This happened to me" counts stronger than all the ones who say "It hasnt happened to me, yet".

ReineD: I think it's important though for TSs to not suggest to CDs who post in the CD section they might be TS. That's a little much.

Yes, it is. And anybody claiming to know what percentage of CD'ers who will transition is, is also on thin ice and can cause problems for those who are not transitioning. And here we are, back at the topic at hand.

Eryn: In fact, one can even go from being a "typical" male to CD and then proceed along the spectrum.

(there is a lot more to that quote really)

Yes Eryn, I know people who did that too. There a lot's of variants and some are pretty amazing. And it is important that those accounts are shared and people have a chance to learn from them.

Eryn: Suzie, when you log in, check the "remember me" box.

Thanks! That was driving me bunkers

- Suzie

[DebbieL]

Chris is absolutely right. Most important is that there is no "cut and dried" or "set in stone" for either cross-dressers or anyone on the transgender spectrum. One of the reasons we came up with the term transgender was because we needed a term that covered that broad spectrum.

There are those who are type 6 transgender and have known for as long as they can remember that they were a girl and tried to masquerade as a boy, but they had to appease intolerant parents, ignorant peers, and many others. They had to live in stealth, and were forced to settle for "fetish dressing" because all they could obtain or steal without being noticed is the lingerie of a mother or sister. Often, they get married and become cross-dressers, because that's all the woman they love will tolerate, later they don't want to lose the career and respectability they have established over the years. They may not be able to transition until they are much older, closer to retirement age.

On the flip side, there are cross-dressers who are completely happy being male. They have never had the desire to be a woman, and probably never will. Even if you gave them a magic wand so that they could change back and forth, they would be girls for short periods of time, for sex, for parties, but they would spend nearly all of their lives being men.

In between, is a spectrum. Cross-dressers who discover they want to be girls only after spending an extended period of dressing. There are even seemingly cis-gender males who may not discover they are transgender until high school or college. Often such boys are quite unhappy as boys, being bullied, unable to socialize with most boys, but having many girl friends. Sometimes a female friend will over to dress him up, or offer some other feminine experience. In some cases, there is just the sudden awareness - an observation made by a well-meaning friend.

This is one of the reasons for the WPATH guidelines, and the Real Life Test. The purpose of the Real Life Experience is to help those who may be cross-dressing cis-gender males realize that they should remain male, and help those who are transsexual become more comfortable as full time females.

[ReineD]

The second part, again just for myself, this feeling was never something constant, and there were many many occasions where I didnt even think of it. I always felt comfortable being male and I still do. Every now and then, I enjoyed the feeling of expressing the more traditional female role and be allowed to pretty up. I also really enjoyed the challenge of seeing how perfect I could make the illusion!

There have been threads in the CD section debating the different types of CDs and differentiating between fetish and non-fetish. A theme, or a question that I've seen expressed many times is, when it stops being sexual does it mean the individual is "becoming" TS. I suppose people who ask this question ultimately define the CDing as fetish, and anything else as Gender Dysphoria. We see a lot of posts from people thinking of themselves as "more than CD" but "not quite TS", I presume when they experience strong urges to go out dressed and it is not sexual. There are also people who just throw their hands up at any attempt to sort it out and simply call themselves "TG".

On the other hand, there are CDers who are quite happy with the "CD" label. They know they are men, they know that it isn't sexual for them, and they don't worry about it. They just enjoy dressing up and going out.

To the TSs reading this, you can just skip this next part since you know this stuff already:

So I think it's a good idea to point out that in order for it to be Gender Dysphoria, being a male has to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning." In other words, being a male has to create serious problems in someone's life.

I've seen my own SO and others here go through many cycles, but distress over being male was not one of them. A term that is bandied about in the CD section is "Pink Fog" and although I don't like the term, it seems to describe the euphoric feelings that some people experience with the crossdressing especially when they experience something new or when the freedom to dress is limited. This is not the same as clinical impairment over being male since it comes and goes. My SO's triggers are more in evidence twice per year, when the weather warms up and women start wearing skirts and heels again, and in the fall when all the cute sweaters and boots come out. The CDing abates considerably during the heat of the summer and again in the winter when everything gets covered up with coats. Other people in this forum are triggered by seeing ball gowns or wedding dresses for example. My SO does not dress for sexual reasons (although this was the case when he was younger), but there is something about portraying a well-dressed woman, with nice jewelry, that is extremely rewarding. This is not clinical impairment over being male. Also, my SO refuses to wear suits and ties, just as there are some outfits I would not be caught dead in. These clothes simply do not reflect who we are.

Anyway, I think it worth posting the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria for Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults:

https://crashchaoscats.wordpress.com...der-dysphoria/

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least two of the following (see numbered list):

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning.

1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
   
   
2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
   
   
3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.
   
   
4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
   
   
5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
   
   
6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

[PaulaQ]

I refuse to believe that there isn't. I am sure its not magical I am sure there is some reasonable rational way. Medical professionals must know. I sincerely doubt they just start handing out drugs and hormones to just anybody claiming to be trans. How do they determine who is eligible and who isn't? What are the criteria?

I had to smile when I read this.

The short answer to this question here in the states is that you talk to a therapist once or twice, tell 'em you want to transition, and they give you a letter "diagnosing" gender dysphoria. You give this letter to a friendly doctor(these are hard to find some places), and he prescribes hormones. The therapist doesn't care whether or not you are trans - well they do, but they have no choice but to trust you. They just need to make sure you aren't so profoundly mentally I'll that you can't give informed consent. I've met one person, so far, who was that mentally ill.

There is no scientific way to prove you need to transition currently. You can spend a lot of time with a therapist, and don't get me wrong, this is a good idea if you are unsure - but if you already know you want to transition, a bunch of gender therapy, whatever other merits it has (and it has a lot), isn't going to tell anyone whether or not you need to transition. Mostly it serves to let the therapist hold your letter hostage until you pay enough fees that she's made a good profit on you.

It's all on you.

This may sound bad, but really, the history of therapists involvement with trans people is awful. For example, in the past, you'd better be highly femme, you better be employed, and you damn sure had to like men. You also had to tell the story they wanted to hear "I always knew I was a woman, etc."

Also, some of the therapists out there aren't so great. My first gender therapist told me I was gender queer. Take a look at my profile picture, and see if you can spot what might be wrong with that diagnosis! (I tell that story to other trans people who know me. They get a big laugh out of that! I am one of the most highly gender binary aligned cisnormative trans women you'll meet.)

Again, therapy has its purpose, and I believe in it. It simply isn't a diagnostic tool for transition. There is currently no such tool. And even if there were, I wouldn't trust the medical establishment to use it properly. Their history with the trans community is awful, too, for the most part.

[becky77]

Well when dressing at home gets mundane something needs to make it exciting again. In steps the human nature of risk taking or gambling. Going out an passing as a woman you win the game of cross-dressing or at least this match. Everytime you are ignored or better yet a male's head turn you get confirmation of you accomplishment. its the CD equivalent of catching a 25lbs trout in fishing.

Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.
It's an interesting take and I wonder how many would rather think of themselves as having some kind of medical/gender issue, rather than just an addiction or sexual kink.
There is an awful lot of delusion in the trans community and it's healthy to see more honest answers like this.

[Dianne S]

Would you actually like the airlines to publicly list that probability on the website when you book your flight?

You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

Thats understandable, nobody expect you to remember or have read all posts. But if you go back and read the OP message, that is what this thread is all about.

Yeah, I know, but I think the OP is overstating the case. I think very few people state what she says.

I do like this thread! It's interesting and informative. Let's keep it going in a friendly way.

[Suzie Petersen]

PaulaQ: The short answer to this question here in the states is that you talk to a therapist once or twice, tell 'em you want to transition, and they give you a letter "diagnosing" gender dysphoria. You give this letter to a friendly doctor(these are hard to find some places), and he prescribes hormones. The therapist doesn't care whether or not you are trans - well they do, but they have no choice but to trust you.

Good description Paula, that is the core of it. As I said to someone else in a different thread, if you want to, and are just a little smart about it, you can easily fool the therapist. They have no way of running a test that goes Red for female or Blue for male. Just doesnt exist.
If one desires to have SRS and have the bits changed out, the Real Life Test (RLT), which is typically 1 to 2 years of living and functioning in society as your chosen new gender, is the gate for approval. I think some still require a short RLT before even prescribing hormones, but certainly not all.

Becky77: Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.

Yes I think that is one of the really big problems for many. The SO might accept some level of dressing, like lingerie or whatever, and the CD'er tells the SO that will be enough. But then it develops and becomes more and more and more. Give the devil a little finger and he will take the whole arm kinda thing. Now the SO realizes the CD'er cannot be trusted with this freedom and might shut it down again. Seems many end up in a DADT after that.
The real problem is that some CD'ers dont themselves understand the dynamics and how addictive it can become. Some certainly lie about it, just to get permission and then move forward as planned, but I think many dont even realize that the need or desire will grow.

Then when the SO comes to a forum like this and ask for help with the CD hubby out of control, and get to read some threads which give her the perception that it is likely/highly likely/somewhat likely that he will eventually transition, then she can easily shut down completely. It is of course part of the story that some do and that is important too, we just need to make an effort to keep it in balance such that those who genuinely seek help here get the help they need to figure this out in their own relationship.

Diane S: You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

I agree with disclosure so you can know the risk, but I dont want it to be one of the most important parts of the travel experience. "Thank you for flying White Knuckles Airlines, you chance of surviving the flight is x%! How many pieces of check-in luggage today?".
And that, I believe, is the point regarding the potential for CD'ers eventually transitioning. When a concerned wife ask what we collectively think is going on with her hubby who seems to be out of control, we just need to be a little sensitive to what it is she needs at that moment, to be able to handle the situation. We need to be careful that we support and not frighten and that we offer help and information in the right doses at the right time.
Maybe the hubby is in fact TS and they need help dealing with that, but there is a good possibility that he is just a little lost and that the two of them can find a healthy balance in their relationship.
It does not help them at that moment to learn that x% transition, they cannot really use that for anything, but it can cause a complete blocking of communication for them and might prevent them from working through it together.

Yeah, I know, but I think the OP is overstating the case. I think very few people state what she says.

And that might be true, it might not be a huge issue. However, the OP felt there was a problem and several people have chimed in and supported that. Over the years, not just on this forum, I have at times felt the same to a degree and I feel it is worth talking about.
We cant really judge how big any issue is for anyone, we cannot quantify it and dismiss it if doesnt score high enough on the concern scale. We need to talk about it and if there are things that can easily be done differently such that someones concern is eased, why shouldnt we then try! Thats all.

- Suzie

[Dianne S]

"Thank you for flying White Knuckles Airlines, you chance of surviving the flight is x%! How many pieces of check-in luggage today?".

Maybe I have nerves of steel, but that honestly wouldn't bother me.

As I mentioned earlier, the SO of a CD who discloses may well read postings on this site, but he or she is also likely to read many other sites with far more scary and disturbing information. I also believe that most adults understand that information found on the Internet should be treated with some skepticism, so I guess I'm relatively sanguine about the potential harm caused by the odd bit of misinformation.

It does not help them at that moment to lean that x% transition, they cannot really use that for anything,

Actually, I don't agree. Let's see... the odds of a marriage failing in North America are anywhere from 30% to 50%, I'd guess. The odds of a CDer transitioning are unknown, but I'm confident most people would agree they're way below 5% and probably quite a bit lower even than 1%. As an SO, I think I'd actually be comforted knowing that something is so rare that it's extremely unlikely to affect the success or failure of the relationship.

Again, maybe that's just me... perhaps I'm a steel-nerved cold-blooded Amazon who's capable of digesting statistics dispassionately.

[Suzie Petersen]

Dianne S: Actually, I don't agree. Let's see... the odds of a marriage failing in North America are anywhere from 30% to 50%, I'd guess. The odds of a CDer transitioning are unknown, but I'm confident most people would agree they're way below 5% and probably quite a bit lower even than 1%. As an SO, I think I'd actually be comforted knowing that something is so rare that it's extremely unlikely to affect the success or failure of the relationship.

Yes of course!
My mistake entirely, maybe I should have made that clear but I actually thought it was pretty obvious that the discussion here is about scary high predictions, not about comforting low risk numbers

I am so naive at times.

- Suzie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Suzie you wrote

Yes I think that is one of the really big problems for many. The SO might accept some level of dressing, like lingerie or whatever, and the CD'er tells the SO that will be enough. But then it develops and becomes more and more and more. Give the devil a little finger and he will take the whole arm kinda thing. Now the SO realizes the CD'er cannot be trusted with this freedom and might shut it down again. Seems many end up in a DADT after that.
The real problem is that some CD'ers dont themselves understand the dynamics and how addictive it can become. Some certainly lie about it, just to get permission and then move forward as planned, but I think many dont even realize that the need or desire will grow.

Then when the SO comes to a forum like this and ask for help with the CD hubby out of control, and get to read some threads which give her the perception that it is likely/highly likely/somewhat likely that he will eventually transition, then she can easily shut down completely. It is of course part of the story that some do and that is important too, we just need to make an effort to keep it in balance such that those who genuinely seek help here get the help they need to figure this out in their own relationship.

So basically because CD's get out of control and keep going further and further and the wife gets concerned and starts checking out stuff online, she might come here and read scary things (true things) said by transsexuals and it might get you in trouble?? it might make the wife more concerned..it is those specific CD"s that you have to wonder what is really going on, and that scenario she should be concerned...there are trust issues, there are communication issues, and there easily could be long term issues..

So basically concerned transsexuals that share their stories about how they experienced cd'ing and the cd community
makes it harder for the cd to get what they want, which is dress dress dress and convince the wife that its ok..

and what about all the posts about interest in men? about folks that don't tell their wives everything? should they all be "toned down" too?

The intensity of your protestations raises my eyebrows.

[stefan37]

It really boils down to honesty and his truthful spouses and partners communicate. The large majority of those that CD have disclosure issues. We read many posts where the marriage broke up from cd'ing, and the cd'r enters a new relationship without disclosing their need to xdress. The other issue is honesty with ourselves. If we can't be honest with ourselves, how can we be honest with our partners.
In my case I refused to accept the fact I was transsexual. I told my wife a couple times I was only interested in xdressing and didn't have the cash or resolve to transition. Didn't work out so well. The inner urge to feminize my looks became uncontrollable and I felt I was on a runaway train. 3 years later on hormones, FFS, legal name change and a divorce.
For the record I told my wife of my need to wear women's clothes on our Third date. We were together 35 years and married for 31.

My experience is what it is and worth telling. If a spouse comes to the forum and reads it and freaks out, not much I can do about it.
There is another website that's name is similar and the wives there are very hostile and repulsed by their xdressing husbands. In fact if a spouse goes to it looking for support of her cd'ing husband, they are extremely hostile and run them off.

[Badtranny]

Hey Kait, I think you're trying to nail Suzie to a cross she didn't build.

I of course understand your perspective and as always, your arguments are engaging, but Suzie isn't really arguing. It seems like she's empathizing with the OP and kind of fleshing out that perspective. She doesn't have a dog in the fight, and I think she's just intellectualizing a bit on this topic.

She isn't trying to make HER point, she's trying to make THE point.

[Katey888]

You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

Dianne - couple of issues with the discussion of stats that I can see here:

1) Raw stats can be misleading for folk that don't understand them or know how they can be interpreted - your air accident example is a good metaphor for transitioning: it either happens or it doesn't - it's a binary outcome - we will, or (most of us ) won't. But there are at least two issues with stats viewed in this way: the first is the known accuracy of the history - with airlines, the data is public and you can get it and it's fairly accurate; with CD/TG/TS scenarios, data is at best only available and published when research is carried out, and is fraught with uncertainty. The only accurate stats (I would surmise) are those captured by medical institutions or practitioners for things like HRT prescriptions or SRS surgical procedures for trans* patients, and government stats related to documented gender changes (where these are allowed) - but with all of these we can only see some of those transitioning, it will not capture those who decide to live 24/7 without medical intervention and - more importantly - we have no idea of the base population (CD+TG+GQ+TS or however you define it) so these are guesstimates at best.

2) The second issue is using historical data to predict the future - where random outcomes amongst a population are concerned you can only use data to project likely overall outcomes for a general population most definitively NOT for individual events... So even if it were known historically that (say) 1 in 100 crossdressers with gender issues ultimately transition to 24/7 living, HRT or SRS, that doesn't help any SO know the outcome of their specific relationship. The best you could say is that it's likely that from a random cross-section of 100 crossdressers, one will transition over time... I’m not sure that would be useful or scary – and don’t get me wrong: I like stats I just would question the value and veracity of any that come out of our forum discussions.

Now for my free consultation… I feel like I might be adding to someones doctoral thesis here - but all good... Reine:

You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).

Not one bit at all. The closest I have ever come to wondering about this aspect was fantasising about switching between genders as a teenager, but that was pure fantasy. My history of CDing has been entirely without wondering or worrying about transition. To keep this in context my only attempts at full transformation have been in the past two years although I have always had a healthy interest in fashions since those teenage days.

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc).

For me it’s not all the time – but I think there’s an important distinction between feeling it all the time(knowing about it); actively thinking about it; and the urge to act on those thoughts. I think there has rarely been a day go by in the past 40 years when I have not known that I was somehow different and recognised that urge to either just crossdress (wear the clothing) or express somehow more feminine. That is different to more actively thinking or planning (buying something or what to wear next time… ) and then acting on the need. Last year and the year before I was dressing about twice a month for a few hours; this year has been much less so far.

Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.

No. An urge for me is sated partly by the planning and consideration of how to look and then a few hours getting that done. And maybe a few photos...

Do you see yourself as having the same dysphoria about your body that TSs have and is this the source of your conflict. Or, is it rather a question of wondering why you have such strong urges to dress.

The latter. Against the present formal definition of GD or GID, I don’t have it. But I think like others, I have a problem with the present binary approach to that condition and that was part of the reason I first joined here. Here is a forum that captures so many stories and experiences that fall outside of the GD binary, but also (to my interpretation) fall outside of the broad fetish-CDer analogue. I’d admit that the forum (Bless her and all who sail in her!) has inspired and facilitated my full transformations, but that process was underway before finding this place, to the extent that I had been out partly dressed, partly made up and was considering how to get out completely. Trying to analyse why I felt the need for that has brought me to a point that feels I suffer some degree of gender dysphoria, but not to such an extent that I want to change anything – I’m content with disguising everything as best I can, but the expression of that femme part of me cannot find full satisfaction without the expression being validated by others, whether that’s amongst the community or the general population. I have been an incredibly shy person – maybe hard to believe – but there is a definite feeling that a barrier has been removed when I am presenting female. My personality doesn’t change hugely, but I know that mannerisms and posture do to be less contradictory of the mode of expression. Although I’ve noticed that is not always the case with others… In short, I believe it is possible to need an outlet for an alternate gender expression that doesn't mean complete dysphoria or the need for permanent changes.

I do think that this binary thing (again) is the big problem for me and for many of us – in some ways it must be easier to explain or accept transsexuals (for others) rather than this annoyingly confusing no-man’s land (pun intended ) that many of us are driven to inhabit. But society likes binaries; likes clarity; seeks stability; needs easy explanations... Gender bending or flipping is just too far out there to be easy to understand!

And yes, this is a good and interesting discussion - sorry this was long again...

Katey x

[Suzie Petersen]

Threads like this often get sidetracked now and then because they touch on many important issues and topics, but just to summarize what at I am trying to say here about the core of the OP:

- The intend of this thread, is to improve our ability to help people, who are married or in a steady relationship, to deal with a gender issue. It is about the first impression a spouse of a TS or CD gets when visiting here for the first few times.

Thats the skinny of it. I hope most can find common ground in that goal.

So as an example, I have personal friends where the hubby has transitioned years ago and they retained their marriage by working together on finding the new normal for them. I also have a personal friend where the marriage came to a horrible end, with big emotional and financial problems for both parties. On the latter, I only know the TS woman, not the ex-wife so I have only heard one side of the story.

People have an amazing ability to adapt to a new normal, but it will often take substantial time if it is a major change. Some deal with it better than others and some can go into a complete lock-down, unable and unwilling to deal with it. That can happen if the apparent change is too overwhelming and if the positive aspects dont get a chance to be considered.

Among the active forum participants right now, there are some people who are trying to figure out if they are TS and not CD. They are struggling badly with unaccepting wifes who do not even want to talk about the situation. There is little or no communication.
I think that type of lock-down can happen if the person is shocked by the prospect of the change and does not have sufficient time to process it. Something happens early on that makes them block all communication and the chance of recovery for the relationship is severely hurt.
This can be caused by the TS/CD's lack of ability to communicate or to generally handle the situation, or it might be caused by external factors like friends and family painting a dark picture for the SO.

If the wife comes here and read the mix of personal accounts of TS transitioning, CD's fooling around in their underwear and all the other variants, they will get a varied picture of the entire community. For many that will certainly be an eye opener and can be a shock I'm sure. But, they will see the mix of stories and can base their opinion on that.

If they come here and read statements like:

Over the last two years here, I've watched many "I'm just a CD" begin their transition.

So roughly 5-10% of CDs go into some type of transition, and 1.5%-3% ultimately get one or more gender surgeries.

Transition is just sort of the worst case scenario, and it's not on a super-low order of probability. It can happen - 1 time in 10 or 20.

The difference between a CD and a TS is 2 years!

they might get so overwhelmed that all communication stops and it becomes impossible to find a path through it all while staying together.

I just picked a few quotes from other posts without trying real hard to find more. I should also say that I ripped them out of long statements, some of which certainly explains that this is far from always the case. The concern however, is that an upset and irrational person might only remember the stand alone statements as listed in the quotes.

If these statements were based on actual facts, that would be one thing, but often they are just words picked to illustrate a point and nobody knows if they are even close to reality. We simply do not have scientific background for making such statements.
But for the nervous wife of a TS who is looking for help, or for the equally nervous wife of a CD doing the same, such statements might completely hinder the ability for her to slowly accept a new normal. She goes in lock-down and cannot deal with it. Game over, no amount of counseling can now reach her because she is not even willing to go.

So No, nobody should lie about anything and nobody should suppress their story. But we should all think about the potential damage we might cause with casual remarks, jokes, numbers or quantities which are not factual. If we can help just one relationship to survive a gender struggle, by thinking twice before making such statements, it will be well worth it.

- Suzie

[Taylor Ray]

Wow. So much analysis. Not to undermine the genuine concerns of the wonderful participants in this forum, but......

I find it to be a real "red flag" when people concoct elaborate psychological/intellectual schemes to "rationalize" or "validate" certain ways of life.

Especially when they quote the DSM!

Please. More Zen less intellectualizing!

[Dianne S]

Raw stats can be misleading for folk that don't understand them

Yes, which is almost everyone. I also advocate for mathematical literacy and a good understanding of risks and probabilities.

where random outcomes amongst a population are concerned you can only use data to project likely overall outcomes for a general population most definitively NOT for individual events...

Hey, yes, we are in total agreement! I said above that I would never say "I think so-and-so is TS" or whatever. At the same time, I do not advocate hiding truthful information from anyone in order to protect their feelings and the fact is that some CDers who initially have no idea they're TS eventually transition and no amount of sugar-coating can negate this fact.

CDing places extreme stress on a relationship. Over and over again, people on this forum have stressed the need for an honest and open discussion. Well then, let's be honest.

If we can help just one relationship to survive a gender struggle, by thinking twice before making such statements, it will be well worth it.

Again, this probably comes across as cold and hard-hearted, but... while relationships are important, they are not sacrosanct. One's own health takes precedence.

If a relationship ends because of a flippant remark by a stranger on an Internet forum, one has to wonder what chance that relationship really had.

[Lorileah]

Life has risks. It always will. When we get transporter beams there will be the risk your molecules would be scattered all over the galaxy. Publishing an airlines risk (already done if you take time you can find who has the highest accident rate) won't force safety. You drive daily, what's that risk?

OK, back to the thread.

The actual odds a CD will morph into a TS will never be known because errors in samples. Consider 98% of CDs never come on this forum (OK you know it's more but my math skills require simplicity). So the 2% who do have 75% who never ever get outside the house or only wear stealth. That leaves 5% of the actual CD population (and we are assuming here that only those who see themselves as CDs and GQ or DQ or TS are in the sample). Now out of the 5% who do go out and do interact and are seen in public, let's just for fun say 10% of those are really TS who are questioning. that would be .0098 of the standard people who are CD (in some form) become TS. In a safety analogy, that seem fairly safe, doesn't it? But again the issue is getting a real sample. This isn't something that has a physical marker so people can (and do ) lie about it.

(note all that looks good to most people, but the math and statistics are all false...so a MtF telling his SO there is a .0098 chance he might be TS, and he can use this as his reference even though it hasn't been vetted may make the SO feel better.)

There are too many variables that muddy the lines. Easiest to just have trust with your SO from the start and don't hide or lie about this. But emotions rule there. You fear you have found the ideal (on both sides) you fear yo may lose your ideal if you tell them. So we will never get an accurate answer. This is also common for TSs. We keep the truth inside, hoping we can survive our lives and get through fitting images. So there is another factor that will skew any attempt to get statistics that are meaningful.

There is only ONE thing that helps maintain the standard: honesty. With yourself to start. With your SO. No one else really matters (Kids maybe but you do a lot to teach and protect them, they can be molded and shaped).

I feel like maybe I am in a 12 step group. Hi I am Lori and I am TS. I lied to many people for 55 years. I still lie on some occasions but it is harder now for me to do that since I have taken the oath. I have known I was TS for a long time. Did I progress? Yes I did. Not everyone who uses clothes will get to that point. I did, but it wasn't without my knowledge and my enabling myself. There is no one here who knows where you are in this world...except you. You have that power. No one can make you do anything you don't somehow want to do. Thus, if you don't want (or need) transition, you won't transition. (except in those porn stories all over the internet about the poor man who was captured and forced against his will to become female and then make millions modeling and no one ever knows...yes I used to read those too). But if you question where you are at all, in my opinion, you should rectify it with yourself first and then involve the one person who depends on your honesty and faithfulness. Openness and trust are basic bedrocks to a relationship.

When the question is called, having someone who trusts you and vice versa, can make it easier. We keep inferring that this is a spectrum, and it is mostly, but that also allows people to slide up and down the made up scale. So nothing is in concrete. Never say never and always avoid always. I knew. The women in my life who counted, knew. I made my line in the sand. I progressed because I wanted to progress and now not having to protect or shield said women (My words not theirs), I progressed. I have at least 4 real good TG friends who are 70-85 years old who never planned nor wanted to move to the TS edge. I think that says a lot. No one told them they "Had" to. They are happy (as far as I know) where they are. I also know many Drag Queens who will never go beyond being a Drag Queen. Interesting that if we make an assumption (hypothesis) that people progress, very few DQs become anything else. Is that a higher hurdle?

So the whole progression theory is false. You can quote that to your SO if you wish. Use this analogy: 90 people drive cars. 10 of those people drive cars very fast, 1 becomes a racedriver on local tracks. On rare occasions that race driver becomes a professional. (OK TSs are professionals...sort of not really kind of)

[Bobbi46]

why cannot people accept fully what and why we are, there all sorts of reasons for why we are the way we are, I think people should be more tollerant, especiall if tells a friend that they now cd and that friend is no longer, people like that should be more understanding in their outlook and accept that underneath there are very valid reasons for what we do.

[stefan37]

Some will underdress, some will dress in the house, others will go outside, some will dress and go out and mingle, some will go farther and live in the middle. And a small percentage will transition. The bottom line is it is up the the cd'r to communicate and encourage discussion. If the spouse is not interested and absolutely loathes the idea their husband crossedresses, then I feel for the cross dresser as they then have to go into hiding. It amazes me the number of cross dressers that don't disclose to their future mates until long into the relationship and wonder why their spouse is upset when they do disclose.

The only way to get at what the op is suggesting is to stifle all debate about others experience and just respond with. You go girl.

The difficulty is many are farther along the Tg spectrum continuum whether they know it or can even accept it. Transition is unpredictable because GD is unpredictable. There is no telling who will transition or who will not.

I thought of myself as strictly a cross dresser and through the years there would be periods of no dressing and no desire to dress. Grow a beard be all manly and all.
But the past couple years the GD came at me like a tsunami.

I would say that the potential to transition exists in all those that xdress.
Given the freedom to dress at will. I would venture that most would push their limits to their comfort zone and go no further. Others unfortunately will need to transition.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Too bad you are all just making it worse..you made nothing into a big deal!

like i said in my first post here...its a strawman
...its a made up problem so somebody can complain about ts people posting uncomfortable things...

all that came of it was some interesting debate and lots more focus on it....there was general agreement that if there is an "offending" post people that care will hopefully notice it and call it out...perhaps setting off another threadstorm ..who knows..

and there are no good stats on this stuff, its just made up baloney..they serve no purpose but people seem to cling to them..
we should all call those posts out if we see them..

...but whats also baloney is this whole idea that a couple scary ts posts are destroying marraiges and shutting down communications...

If this forum makes a wife freak out, its not because there are 4 or 5 messages buried in thousands and thousands....

There are lots more types of posts that wives i'm sure could get upset about...especially the ones about liking attention from men when dressed, and the large cohort that supports DADT and other types of lying.
imagine a wife reading the posts of "straight cd's" that enjoyed flirting or being flirted with by a guy as part of their outing...

This forum is run for everybody, not just the wives of cd's. In fact, i'd argue that wives of cd's SHOULD know this stuff... they should know Stepan's story, mine and others... are we 2 in a million a thousand or a hundred..

[sometimes_miss]

First, I think this sums it up perfectly:

There is a tendency for people on this forum to try to clearly differentiate between a CD who'll never transition and a TS who CDed before transition. That's easy enough to do, after the fact of the TS starting transition. Before the fact, it's virtually impossible to differentiate the two - at least up to the point the gender dysphoria of the TS person approaches sort of a terrible climax.

And that's it in a nutshell. During the process, there's NO WAY TO KNOW. None. Even to the person going through it. So for a GG mate to come here looking to figure out whether or not her male SO is 'just a crossdresser' or 'really TS', she's wasting her time. There's no way to know.

It has recently occurred to me that transitioning or not, all crossdressers are indeed transgender. To say I'm just a guy that likes wearing women's clothes is self-delusional. I think crossdressing is much more than that. .

See, just because it's that case for you, doesn't mean its that way for everyone else. This is the biggest, most common mistake made on this forum.

There have been threads in the CD section debating the different types of CDs and differentiating between fetish and non-fetish. A theme, or a question that I've seen expressed many times is, when it stops being sexual does it mean the individual is "becoming" TS.

No it does not. I'm surprised that's even questioned. But it does reflect the general lack of knowledge on the part of most who are here on this forum. What we have here, is lots of people with personal experience, but virtually no idea of why they do it, or any scientific knowledge about it. Sort of like people who go fishing.

We see a lot of posts from people thinking of themselves as "more than CD" but "not quite TS",

Few have any real idea of why they feel the way they do, in ANY situation. So it's no surprise they can't tell you exactly where they are on the TG spectrum. How many here took college level basic psychology, child psych, abnormal psych? I'm guessing less than 1%. How many have professional psych experience of any kind? Again, less than 1%. (disclaimer: I'm a retired RN who spent nearly all my life working in E.R.s, including crisis intervention. Yet the total number of patients who have presented with sexual identity related problems including TS/TG/CD/homosexuality I've seen in my life number only about 30 that I can remember, and that's in >40 years).

So I think it's a good idea to point out that in order for it to be Gender Dysphoria, being a male has to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning." In other words, being a male has to create serious problems in someone's life.

See, it's not that at all. There are lots of us out here with gender dysphoria that are able to function quite well much of the time. Exactly how 'serious' the problem is can easily depend on what ELSE is going on in our lives. For example, if every waking moment you're dodging machine gun fire in Kosovo, worrying about where you left your panties isn't high on the priority scale. Or if you just spent a week dressed up, perhaps you've sated your need to do so for a few days (or longer) and fulfilling your need to express or feel female is on the back burner for a while.

And I disagree with your definition of the term 'pink fog', though it may be that everyone needs to define it for themselves. To me it means being in a state of mind where you start to believe crossdressing is normal behavior, and so start to behave as if it is to the rest of the world as well.

Regarding your reference to the DSM-V, and it's definitions, please note the highlighted italicised word(s):

Transgender refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who tran*siently or persistently identify with a gender different from their natal gender. Transsexual denotes an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male, which in many, but not all, cases also involves a somatic transition by cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery). Gender dysphoria refers to the distress that may accompany the incongruence between one’s experienced or expressed gender and one’s assigned gender.

Remember too, that this is a continually changing document. With every new revision, what defines us to the professional mental health practicioners, changes.

Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.

Part of the problem is that NO ONE knows how far it will go. We may change as we get older, that's a simple fact of life; just like a guy might like playing golf once a month when he's 20, and at 70 want to play every day, or may quit altogether at 30. Or there are some who like S&M yet grow tired of it after a few years and never do it again. We don't get to decide what we want to do, or what we are. We may change and become TS. We may not. There's no way to know, yet that is exactly what the women in our live insist on knowing in advance. Yet women reserve the right to change their minds, and change what they get to do in their lives. All while insisting that the man in their lives remain exactly who he is, forever.
And again, why we don't tell women up front that we crossdress.
1. Because it's basically a death sentence nearly all the time. It's a turn off for almost all women, perhaps 99%, and we have no way to find that other 1%. We need love too, and being up front with something like this means we will be alone, virtually forever (unless we're gay, which encompasses only about 20% of CD'ers). No one deserves this. No one. Plenty of women have problems of their own which no man would want to deal with, but they feel perfectly entitled to keep their mouth shut about them. I don't see this as being any different.
2. We often think we can 'beat it'. Lots of us purge, and think we're done. Often we can suppress the urge to crossdress, sometimes for years or decades. We don't tell you because it's something we've 'beaten', and so we think it's not important to tell you, any more than the fact that we used to have wet dreams and have 'beaten' that too. People don't tell their mates everything. They leave out things they deem unimportant, or things that might upset them. For example, I didn't tell my wife I was a crossdresser, because I hadn't done it in years. I thought I had 'beaten' it or maybe just grew out of it. My wife didn't tell me that she was OCD, was a raging lunatic when in PMS, had a tendency to leave sharp objects all over the house on the floor and furniture, or putting stuff away to her meant just putting them somewhere where you couldn't see it, so the next time you needed it, there was no way to find it. Get what i mean? What's important for me to know, was up to her to decide. And vice versa. The problem we come up with here, is that the GG's seem to feel that they have a right to know everything, while also deciding what their own SO needs to know. We don't tell our intended spouse every single event in our lives. It would be impossible. We tell what we think they should know. And that applies to both men, and women, as I mentioned above. At what point it becomes deception, can only be determined by the person who wasn't told something. If it's not a big deal to me, but it is to you, exactly who gets to say it was deceptive by not being out in the open about it? Is it deceptive to not tell my wife that I once stole a bag of potatoe chips when I was 10? After all, that might mean that I could become a jewel theif. How about if she has difficulty saying no when people ask her to borrow money for such things as coffee at work? Does she need to tell me that?
What you tell, depends on how important you feel it is that they know. And that is up to each individual. You don't get to tell me what I should feel is important, and I don't get to tell you the reverse. We each must decide on our own. And if I felt that I'm done with crossdressing forever, much as the same way that I might have felt I'd never want to play billiards again, I see no reason why you'd think I'd bring it up in any conversation.

[Dana44]

It hard to put it in numbers. The T in LBGT is .003 percent of the population by the numbers I saw. Now, one in ten people are in the LBGT spectrum. Crossdresser's are another bread altogether. Yeah some will go TS. Yet I would say when a CD tells his wife he is not gay or will never transition. It is most likely 99.999 percent true. Yeah that .001 might go all the way, we are all different. My hormones are female. My testosterone is pretty normal. I will never transition. I'm a CD person. I like women. I like my male side and do like expressing my feminine side. I do like the plumbing I have and would never ever change it. I was born with it. It was hard having a feminine side since birth. However, it has given me a perspective on this world that is quite different than a man or a woman see's. It is a gift. I would not ever change that gift. I appreciate the fact that I am different.