"Shallow Hal"

[pamela7]

is the non-accepting SO fundamentally revealing their "shallow Hal"-ness?

please debate ...

[sometimes_miss]

I don't think so. Sexual attraction is not something we get to choose anymore than our sexuality. If it were, I'd choose to be turned on by short, fat, ugly, women with bad hair, bad complexion, and a nasty personality. I'd be having so much sex that I'd have to quit my job. Shallow is usually only a word heard from women, when the guy she wants is not attracted to her. Where as, say, women reserve the right to turn down a guy for absolutely any reason at all; they justify it with pretty much anything, but usually just say that they don't feel any chemistry with him. Then Bingo! Friend zone!

[Tina_gm]

It would depend largely on the entire situation and why the non accepting S/O is non accepting. It could be deep ingrained religious or societal beliefs and expectations. It could be how much their spouse covered up and lied. It could be the amount of time that the cover up and lies went on. It could be the selfish behavior of their partner, what the partner expects from them. It could simply be that due to the cover up, the S/O was wrongly falling for a type of person who they are attracted to. Some women are simply attracted to the strong hard masculine type, both physically and internally. If they fell for someone who portrayed this, then disclosed after many years they weren't really this, is it really a shallow hal? Everyone is entitled to be attracted to and like what they like.

I do not feel that a woman who feels that transgender people are deserving of equal rights and a good happy life, yet choose to purposely not be married to one. That would be called personal preference.

For your debate topic, yes, there are a great many women out there who are shallow in their beliefs about crossdressers. There are some who after finding out they are with and or married to one could at least try to understand it. Try to at least cope with some of it. A lot of times though, if you read what the GG S/O's say is the hardest part of it all is the lies, secrecy, falling for someone they do not truly know. Trust issues. In a majority of the GG's who struggle with it all, and are or become non accepting, it is not just the clothes or the dressing which is the hardest issue they have. It is all the stuff that goes on around the dressing.

Many of the GG's who find out in the beginning don't go looking for a CDer. They just learned early on that CDing doesn't make anyone bad. Before learning they probably never would have pictured themselves being with one. They were able to learn and accept without the pressure of having so much time invested, along with kids and property, basically their entire life. They fell for the CDer as they are, not of someone who pretended not to be who they are.

[Katey888]

Don't think so... It's just someone exercising choice, individuality, preference and everything else 'self-actualizing' that makes us human...

While we probably are a relatively specific and small portion of the population, I don't think this is much different from anyone making a choice on the basis of:
- Personal politics
- Sexual quirks and fetishes
- Earning power and lifestyle
- Addictions
etc.

I don't think just accepting anything about anybody makes us better people - it may mean we lack any sort of values at all...

Katey x

[reb.femme]

Not for a minute in my book. If, as in my case, the reveal is made after they are married, this is not the deal she signed up to. My wife accepts but has her limits.

If it turned out that I was bi-sexual, would she have to accept this? A big no in my book. It's not being shallow, it's being human and liking what we like and getting what you expected.

Rebecca

[ReineD]

No. Although physical appearance may play a part in the initial attraction, this is only the surface and not what we fall in love with.

Also, the distaste that some SOs experience over the CDing I don't think has anything to do with the physical appearance of it. A SO might cringe at the thought that her husband dresses, while still acknowledging that his taste in clothing, shoes, wig, etc, is fine. In other words, the particulars about the appearance don't matter so much (IMO), as the whole idea that she is married to a man who enjoys being feminine in appearance. Most people develop attitudes about men who crossdress based on general societal attitudes (that there is something "wrong" with men who wear women's clothes) and this can be very difficult to get over for some SOs.

[Dianne S]

No, not at all. Embarking on a relationship with someone is so intimate and personal that I think anyone should be able to make decisions based on any criteria without being accused of being shallow, racist, transphobic, homophobic or whatever.

[AllieSF]

I agree pretty much with Gendermutt's response. Women can be just as shallow as men. However, personal preference is a valid decision reason in most cases. I do cringe when I read some SO's reactions to finding out about this other side of their spouse. I sometimes feel that some of these SO's have their priorities totally backward, and refusing to even try to understand what is happening with their spouse is a serious relationship sin on their part. I totally agree if they don't like it after doing some research and asking a lot of questions, then if they really love their partner, they should let them go free if that is what they need, versus putting them through holy hell because they want their cake and eat it too with no care to what they are doing to their spouse and their relationship.

[Sarah-RT]

No, theres a difference between being shallow and not attracted to a 'version' of the same gender. Im not gay so I dont find my male friends attractive, my gay friends wouldnt think me shallow. I wouldnt be attracted to a FTM crossdresser and I wouldnt expect an SO to be attracted to a MTF

[Dana44]

I agree with gendermutt and alliesf, it is the woman who does not understand as well as any man would. They try to rule the roost without trying to understand their men. Men will take care of their wives during cancer or anything that pops up. He loves her and will do anything for her. Yet in return, he has to be a pillar of rock solid man and cannot have any issues. Many men are committing suicide because there is so much pressure on them. I can understand that on the way I was raised. I was an optimist and turned it around as a character builder and became a successful male that is stable and had to teach myself how to love. A male has a very hard life and all the responsibilities in a relationship. So gee why would an SO not listen and accept a man that has a really minor issue in that relationship. Make it an adventure and romantic, that's one of the things they can get out of it. I would say they are very shallow because when the chips are down he would do anything for her.

[pamela7]

thank you all for responses so far, please keep them coming, i'm seeking to understand.

i know i'm so lucky to have such an accepting SO, and indeed wider family - one of my sons spent last Friday in a dress at his college, much to my surprise. I'm lucky cos CD came late to me, and as soon as it did I told my SO and she's shared the journey, so nothing was ever hidden. We're also lucky to have matched sexual drives and appetites, which also means there's no need for other outlets. I sat with her through life-threatening cancer, caring 24/7, doing all, we've been through a lot, and I'm sure this is true for other relationships too.

So: I happened to watch that film last night, for the first time, and I wondered: the spouse is the same person they fell in love with, yes they kept a secret, yes probably there are private sexual aspects to this of which I'n not aware, but what is "materially" different?

Surely integrating these feminine aspects make the CD'er a better human being? It's obviously a bigger deal for full TS, and a bigger deal if a person comes out bi or of a different orientation than before.

[Beverley Sims]

Not necessarily, think of it as breaking a contract big time.

Women usually chose their guy because he stood out from other guys that would show leadership and support in a masculine way.

Not because he was wearing a dress and makeup.

[Teresa]

Pamela,
To some of us having a partner that doesn't understand and accept can be frustrating ! Putting it bluntly my wife said to me that it's not all about you !
We may think that the world revolves around our CDing problems but my wife like many have so many other things going on in their heads !
The other point I raised sometime ago was that most women won't understand because they don't have the trait running through their brains so they will never fully understand !
I will agree that when they stubbornly won't accept it's sometimes to the detriment of their lives too,we may not be the man they married but do you want to lose him just because he's a Cder !

[ReineD]

I wondered: the spouse is the same person they fell in love with, yes they kept a secret, yes probably there are private sexual aspects to this of which I'n not aware, but what is "materially" different?

The difference is that now they know. And so they attach this knowledge to a set of values built over a lifetime about men who crossdress, based on what they've seen in the media, the jokes that everyone makes whenever the topic is brought up, etc, which does play a part in who we are and are not attracted to.

And some people are "pickier" (can't think of a better word) than others. For example, my SO is staunchly against smoking. When he was single, if he found out a woman smoked, no matter how beautiful she was, no matter how much she might have been attracted to him, she would have been a no-go. And even though we are in an established relationship, if I decided to take up smoking, it would have a negative impact on our relationship simply because he happens to be more dead-set against smoking than most people.

So if you had an ingrained belief about something: for example that call-girls are loose and married women should be faithful and you discovered that your wife had a secret life as a call-girl, would you have a difficult time accepting this? Would you think of her differently?

But, all is not lost. I think that many wives can and do eventually break down their prior values when they find out their husbands crossdress. But it doesn't happen over night. And they need to get rid of all the other doubts they have floating in their minds, such as "Does my husband want to be a woman? Will he want to be with men? Am I not enough for him? Why does he care more about seeing a pretty dress on himself than on me?" and a slew of other questions and insecurities. Even when wives who first find out are supportive, if you gave them a choice and told them their husbands would never know the answer, they would say they would prefer the issue did not exist in their marriage. In other words, rare is the wife who is as thrilled about the CDing as is her husband. But, after years and years of living with it, it tends to become part of life and then everything just falls into place. It takes time for people to get used to things they hadn't planned on.

So I'll give one last example and I sincerely hope that she won't mind. We have an Admin here who is 150% supportive of her spouse. But, she wasn't so much in the beginning; she tried to be supportive until one day the dam broke and she told her spouse how much she hated it. They worked it out, they stayed the course, and years later her spouse went on to fully transition. Maybe she can jump in and correct me if I got any of this wrong.

[pamela7]

Even when wives who first find out are supportive, if you gave them a choice and told them their husbands would never know the answer, they would say they would prefer the issue did not exist in their marriage.

I asked, and yes, among other "outside of normal" aspects, yes, she'd prefer there was no CD, that I dressed straight externally, she is relieved I mostly dress androgynous "out there", and would prefer the appearance of more normality, though she loves the whole package - me.

And yet there's "no problem" with her daughter+friend dressing F2M 100% wherever, cos that is blendable. What can one say?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you can say thats the way it is

[Tina_gm]

Sometimes I too feel a sense of "its not fair" about how women have so many different choices of dress. And, I am not just talking about wearing pants, that has been going on for as long or longer than any of us has been alive. But there are times where women can do or wear things that are not feminine at all, and it not be considered a bad thing. Call it female privilege if you want. Men have so many other areas in life where they get male privilege, so it sorta equals out.

[crashd0309]

I think it's a combination of not finding her man attractive if he looks feminine and it's taboo compared to the societal norms the SO was brought up with. At least this is the vibe I get from my wife. I get so sick of hearing, "I want my man to look like a man" or "I married a man not a woman". My SO "allows" me to dress at home but I have to keep it pretty vanilla and not too "girly". If I'm going out, I can't have any feminine clothing exposed. I think my SO fears I may bring embarrassment to our family.

[ReineD]

And yet there's "no problem" with her daughter+friend dressing F2M 100% wherever, cos that is blendable. What can one say?

It's a double standard, I know.

But blame our culture. We may not think of this often, but values and beliefs do run deep. It's acceptable for women to wear men's clothes in our society (much more than it is for a man to wear women's clothes), and by this I mean the Ellen Degeneres type of men's clothes, that still make it apparent she is an attractive woman:

http://blogdailyherald.com/wp-conten...s-show-254.jpg

I couldn't find appropriate Google images for FtMs (many were of their mastectomies), but when we had FtM members here they also struggled with acceptance from their family and friends. I know 2 FtMs who now live as men, and they experienced a lot of difficulties in their personal lives too. It seems that most people are rather tenacious about the idea that people should not change sex, especially if it is a loved one.

So two things about your wife's daughter and her friend. First, they are not her husband and second, how do they dress, exactly. Do they obliterate their femininity entirely (glue on beard and male eyebrows, shave head for male haircuts, tape down breasts, and pack a prosthesis)? Or do they just put on mannish-looking clothes like Ellen?

[Tina_gm]

Ellen DeGeneres is not a FTM... She does not do anything that says or presents as "male" Gender neutral at times yes, but not specifically male. I have been to a drag KING show once, and oh what a difference you still see from that of the gender neutral women. Not all, as it was for charity and some were doing it just because, but there were definitely some who were true FTM's. Leg hair, underarm hair... no tweezed or waxed eyebrows, full male haircuts.... Still a fairly big difference than what Ellen or others like her do or are.

[Welshgirl]

Well Pamela, you asked me for an honest answer about the CDing and you got one.

For those who don't know, I am Pamela's SO and I would say that I am up near the far end of the scale as far as acceptance is concerned. Not there totally, but better than a lot of people get, it seems! Pamela would be quite happy going round everywhere in girl clothes, but without the wig and makeup. I don't even notice it around the house, because it is still the same person in there no matter what the clothing. It is the going out and about where I have had more trouble being comfortable, and I said from the outset that this is the most difficult of all the things for me to deal with, as it is guaranteed to have people noticing immediately. Pamela feels no need to pass, to blend in, to be invisible.

Life has changed irrevocably with the introduction of cross dressing into our marriage. I want to be able to go out together without people staring, and feeling the weight of their judgement. I really appreciate the fact that Pamela makes an effort to tone it down in public, but honestly I wish that he didn't have to. I wish that I didn't feel like I have to take the rubbish out to the bins because Pamela has on a long flowing skirt and I'm not quite ready for the neighbours to see this yet. I wish that I didn't have to think about what he is wearing if the doorbell goes, so I know if it is me who is answering. I know that, left to his own devices, Pamela would answer the door to anyone no matter what he has on, but he is very considerate of the fact that I am not comfortable with that yet.

I was advised a while ago to just grow a thicker skin. Why should I have to? Why should I have to be the one making all the accommodations, to function out of my comfort zone so that Pamela can be in his? I am not expecting answers to these questions, by the way, I am just giving you an insight into what goes on even in an accepting partner's head sometimes.

As far as my daughter is concerned, she came out to me as FtM trans at about 15 years old. In effect, the child that I thought I had was gone, and the future that involved her doing girly things or wearing girly clothes etc. was gone for ever. No wonderful prom dress, no beautiful wedding dress, no grandchildren. She may well marry her partner in the future, but if that happens they will both be in male suits apparently. I still have my child, but in a way it is like my daughter has ceased to exist. I am very happy for her, and for them both, and I fully accept that it is their right and privilege to express their gender however they feel a need to, but I still miss the pretty daughter that I thought I had!

I think the point of all that rambling is that CDing changes relationships in lots of ways. It is not just the exterior perception of the person that can shift, but the whole direction that the future takes. Plenty of other things can do that to our lives too, it's just that this one is more obvious than most and less understood than most.

[Lorileah]

I think the point of all that rambling is that CDing changes relationships in lots of ways. It is not just the exterior perception of the person that can shift, but the whole direction that the future takes. Plenty of other things can do that to our lives too, it's just that this one is more obvious than most and less understood than most.

It does change things, on both sides. For years I was invisible, now I am noticed. I try and ignore that notice as much as possible. My wife and GF both didn't care about what I wore. Wife said "Don't embarrass me" GF from the start though it was cool.

So the Shallow Hal thing (I had to look that up, I don't watch those kind of movies), that would have been ME upon myself. trying to fit what I thought the women in my life expected. No one stays the same in a relationship. You grow, you change. GF was a gym rat when I met her and I have to admit that is what hooked me. But over time she aged and didn't work out as much and I...loved her just the same.

As to women (SOs) being shallow over this. So many relationships start with the physical. I don't know many where they got together over intellect. So almost every relationship starts shallow and then builds. The ones where the physical fades away but the emotional grows strong, survive. We all change. TGs change more though and often very rapidly. I can see why women have issues with us.

Many of you should see those same perspectives. How many don't want to be seen in public? Why not? Now put your SO in that position, even if its not public they worry about what others will say. Can't blame them right? Then there is the time and money consumption...if you have it, but tend to spend it on YOU, you're the shallow one. If you don't have it and spend it on YOU , you are irresponsible. In any endeavor, if you spend all your time obsessing over it, where it occupies your world, how can you expect your SO to enjoy your dressing?

Throwing the "Shallow Hal" on your SO is unfair and uncalled for. And don't give me the "Women want burly lumberjack men" analogy. You all got married and very few of you fit that. Just like your SO wasn't likely a movie star.

Red herring question. Everyone has a shallow end. But a relationship shouldn't be based on just what you see on the outside

[pamela7]

i agree it would not be fair Lorileah, it's so not applicable to Welshgirl.
I'm curious on this factor though, wondering if its part of the perceived image.

Actually, it does help when i do the lumberjack thing, she's always getting me logs to chop!!!