http://scroll.in/article/730731/what...of-transgender
Transgender is a relatively new word. So when an academic seeks to create a transgender historical archive, complications abound.
http://scroll.in/article/730731/what...of-transgender
Transgender is a relatively new word. So when an academic seeks to create a transgender historical archive, complications abound.
DonnaT
What an interesting and thought provoking thread this has turned into. I'd like to thank one and all for your replies. Personally, I'm not one to split hairs, nor am I easily offended when innocently "labelled" incorrectly. Very difficult for the general population to "get it right" so to speak. It's difficult indeed to avoid the use of "labels," especially in the media. As long as the intent of the label is sincere and respectful, perhaps we should overlook small inaccuracies within it?? Just a thought.
Karen
Everyone will use a term that they feel comfortable with. This forum differentiates by accepting that Transgender is an umbrella term for the whole spectrum, whilst Transsexual is the term used for those are transitioning from their assigned gender and will then live their new gender on a permanent basis.
In the UK, the government have made the differential within their equalities legislation by specifically by using the term Transsexual as a protected characteristic , this has been further refined by specifically
identifying their interpretation of a Transsexual person.
,Originally Posted by mikell
I would suggest you have a read of the postings and profiles of both named moderators of the TS section, both of us are Transsexuals, as is another moderator on the forum
Last edited by Nigella; 05-29-2015 at 12:22 PM.
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
Come to think of it I get confused by that one. Go figure, I miss the simplest times of childhood when I was "black" and that was it, simple easy to remember etc. Now I get confused on what's the proper politically correct term for me now, or use the terms interchangeably ex "whose that hot news anchor on the 6 O clock news, you know the black- oops I mean African American lady??, ditto for friends, etc who seem to feel afraid about what term to use.
LOL, I've also had several of buds during our late nite, we're bored discussions come up with the "no offense bro but Charlize Theron is more "African American" than you are." To which I respond with the "technically you are right but that's "Afrikaner", "Boer" etc, and you guys now seem to have no clue what I'm talking about, and then we move on to standard Xbox One is superior to PS4 debate and divisive/important issues. Which is why I vote for a new confusing term, just further to complicate things, maybe create more division, or balkanization of America with the term. Sub-Saharan African American! Definition Black Chick/Dude!!!!!!!!!!!
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You would think, given the guy's claim that he's been investigating the topic since the 1990s, that he'd have learned a little more about crossdressers...
Last edited by Pat; 05-29-2015 at 01:20 PM.
Pc terminology always amuses me. Literally the same group think of people will trend words and terms then deem those same words and terms derogatory.
Me- I don't ever get fired up over any term because in a few years it will be deemed derogatory anyway. I cd, and have other ways in which I express my femininity. Since I am not transitioning, according to the latest group think trend, I am out of the TG club. Oh well, I will still do what I do and feel what I feel, whatever it is called these days.
Actually that "Guy" is a trans woman that has transition years ago from a quick search of her name...
Megan
A lot of accepting people I know seem much more comfortable in thinking of me as transexual, although they say transgender. The idea that sexuality is not binary and that you might be somewhere on a continuum tends to make them very uncomfortable. My ex-wife OTOH was much more comfortable referencing transgender. Most people seem titillated by transgender but aren't necessarily interested in understanding.
Doesn't help that different people use different names: my parents, for example, used "queer." A much worse choice.....
my apologies Nigella i just saw your use of part of my post and i have gone and made corrections to my post, one of the hosts at my support event was FtM and seemed irritated that i used the term transexual, that was the point i intended to make with my post and apologize if i offended anyone.....that was the reason for my post as i was surprised that the term was offensive and felt i had insulted some there....when i used the term mods i my original post their were two hosts running the meeting.... the meetings are private and i was trying not to give too much detail.
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!crossdressing...theirs an app for that
Much Ado About NOTHING.
You've been made to question sound logic.
K.I.S.S. is a good principle to follow...
DeeAnn
In my lay opinion, "transgendered" and "transexual" are not the same thing, but sloppy use of these and related terms has confused the issue. It is somewhat excusable, because a good deal of the gendered and sexual world have been hidden due to social norms. This sort of thing does matter in terms of law and policy, however. As the glorious diversity of these spectra emerge, folks are trying to make sense of it all. Just a few years ago, I remember learning of asexual people - I had no idea! I love learning more about how complex people and populations can be.
I do think crossdressing is a wide set of behaviors that transect or overlap the gender and sex spectra. As such, I do not believe it is correct to refer to crossdressers as transgendered, since many, including me, would not identify as such.
But, as you say, labels and their meaning aren't everyone's favorite concern.
Label terms and the English language are funny things sometimes, often just in tone. Some words sound harsher or even funnier than others. I heard a stand-up comic once describe that he uses cities Like Peoria, Pittsburgh and Cleveland in his jokes, simply because they sound funnier than say New York, Miami, Denver, simply because of the rhythm of speech. I always think the term gay sounds a little nicer than, homosexual, or Lesbian (although gay is usually used for males). But I wish we as CDs had a better sounding and feeling name to refer to ourselves as. I still think transvestite and crossdresser, aren't particularly my favorites either and still sound a little creepy (maybe used on too many Jerry Springer Shows perhaps). Transgendered, sounds nicer than transsexual.
In fact along the acceptability chart these days, I think someone who is described as being transgendered, is usually more accepted than a cross dresser , because it is usually assumed they have some sort of homornal, or genetic make-up that makes them want to BE females, when cross dressers are just deviants to a degree with a fetish, which we all know is not true in most cases. Like its OK because they have a medical problem, they didn't choose to be that way like cross dressers do.
How the future will go down will probably be like this. Eventually a transgendered (transexual) person will become more common place and accepted, much like the status gays have now. And that will eventually drag us cross dressers, if you will, along with that, to a very slow upward climb to acceptability. Be cool some day to see someone point to a CD and say, "what a cute outfit" rather than OMG a guy who wears a dress?
And also, like I agreed with Alex in another thread, I feel more Bi-gendered than transgendered. So I don't feel I total fit under that umbrella either
-Annie
Last edited by AnnieMac; 05-29-2015 at 05:28 PM.
Personally, I see no need to be polite because what people are doing is reducing us to splinters. At a time when we SHOULD be coming together, we're trying our best to separate ourselves. Further, we have NO basis for complaining about the general populace being confused about WHO we are until WE get some clarity. Seeing 37 different notions of what a crossdresser is doesn't help anyone...
DeeAnn
Anytime anyone says "I don't want to be part of your..." I hear "here I am an easy target because there is one of me and hundreds of you". I hear "I am not someone who needs protection because I am not part of that world." I hear "Leave me alone, what you are going through doesn't concern me and how I live" until...it does History of minority groups has shown that by causing infighting, those in charge can keep control easier.
From the referenced article
"It may be time to remove the term “cross-dresser” from transgenderism, and from society all together, and give men the right — and the legal protection — to wear what they want."
Maybe IF men would actually grow some and quit being afraid of themselves, we wouldn't need "legal" protection. But they won't because they feel like they are "different". If men really wanted to have the right and protection, then being in a larger mass would help. Gays did it, Blacks (sorry but what word do we use?) did it. Women did it.
Transgenders won't because men are afraid (go ahead deny it) of things that go bump in the night. Yes society looks down on a man who presents as transgender because you don't get a group together to say "That's wrong" instead you say"Well I am not like they are so really I am not part of what you are against but still I can't be whatever because you won't let me."
The ONLY way men will get the right to wear (aw geeze technically they ALREADY have the right, they just don't exercise it) what they want is to stand up, join together and make it happen
(BTW the article is weak at best)
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
I actually thought the article was pretty lame as well, Lorileah.
In reference to that article, Utopia is a wonderful place. The problem is that it is HIGHLY likely that none of us will be around to see it. The conditioning that we received growing up male wasn't developed overnight. We're talking about decade after decade, generation after generation. To undo all this conditioning is not the work of a moment.
Certainly we are afraid. Too many things hang in the balance for MANY of us: our families, our homes, our employment and our place in the communities where we live. Reluctance to go out and wave your panties can be easily understood. So yes, Fear is usually what keeps humans from doing something stupid.
Isabella, I respectfully disagree. In fact, the term is not universally accepted at all. This is the entire point. I also don't feel my position is a "disservice to those who fought long and hard..." Discussion of this topic, even though it may drive some people crazy, is important and should be encouraged. I think some of the language used in this subject is obsolete, and this matters not just for those seeking terms in a journey of self-understanding, but in the development of policy and law.
But, I'm just one person and I really have no interest in being any type of advocate for this or related causes. There are many more willing and talented folks than me capable of fulfilling this kind of role. So, it's cool if we disagree - I think that disagreement reveals underlying truths and I may be wrong about what words to use. But I do know that I am definitely a man, inside and out. Alex is the result of a sexual fetish that emerged when I was a young teen
I am reminded that there are many examples of "universally accepted" labels for human beings that have been wrong, sometimes with tragic consequences. "Transgendered" may be such an example.
Last edited by Alex!; 05-29-2015 at 07:19 PM.
Ok I guess I'll help muddy those waters some more.
While I will accept transgender as an umbrella term where cross-dressers, transsexuals and the rest fall under. To me the term doesn't really fit what I do as a cross-dressers. I wore women's clothing, It was fun. while there was a lot of self reflection as to why I did it, my sense of my own gender didn't waiver. I was dressed as a woman but felt like a man. It felt fun to dress as a woman but it felt wrong to identify myself as a woman. It is hard for me to think that just because of a wardrobe choice my gender was now some how in transition. To believe that is to give credence to the idea that a man in a dress is less of a man or some how loses his manhood. I don't believe that.
To call transgender as an umbrella term doesn't seem right either it is more of a corral were someone penned in a bunch of miscellaneous barnyard animals. Sure technically they are all barnyard animals but a pig is different than a chicken, which is different from a sheep which is not the same as a cow. To some they might be categorized as farm animals but they all have different needs and demand different care. It isn't a one size fits all. And they are not likely to unite and declare "four legs good two legs bad"
Last edited by ReluctantDebutant; 05-29-2015 at 07:46 PM.
From what I've seen here over the last several years, it looks like this (no exact hierarchy intended):
- People who underdress, but never leave home
- People who dress but never leave home
- People who underdress and leave home
- People who dress and leave home
- People who dress and leave home maybe 2 or 3 times a year
- People who dress and have extensive social interactions while dressed
- People who dress for fetishistic purposes
- People who live 24/7 as females but who have no interest in transitioning
- People who want to live as females 24/7 and want to transition, but cannot
- People who are living 24/7 as females and are in the process of transitioning or have finished
These are all the shades that I can up with in a couple of minutes. I'm sure that someone somewhere has voiced additional variations of these. For my purposes, I would claim ALL of them under the big tent of Transgender as they have ALL crossed the line in some way. Anything less is just splitting hairs...
Good, because that's not true. How we really are in terms of identification is already in place, but sometimes it takes a long time to discover and realize it. Whatever our internal make up is has already been determined.
True, but consider the difference between farm animals and sea creatures. This would be analogous to people who present as their assigned gender at birth and those who present as something different. And yes, pigs, chickens and sheep all have different needs and function very differently. Similarly, crossdressers, transsexuals and whoever is in between all have different needs and function very differently.
The analogy is the same; you just didn't carry it far enough...
DeeAnn
Last edited by flatlander_48; 05-29-2015 at 08:01 PM.
Good summation of my thoughts DeeAnn! Totally agree.
This thread has got me thinking hard about what gender feels like. When I try to think what it might feel like to be a woman I then immediately say to myself, well, what does it feel like to be man. I haven't a clue. I know it feels good to be dressed, somehow correct at least in the moment. So, in considering the topic in this thread, I wonder what crossdressers, who make no claim of gender variance ( all man ) are thinking and feeling when they are dressed.
Alex...of course you're a man. Just as I am. Regardless of the nature of our compulsion that we have to wear women's clothes, sexual or otherwise, it's that compulsion that makes us transgendered. Being transgendered doesn't somehow mean we aren't men. Is this why you're having such problems with the term? When you put lingerie or a dress on (and you have many beautiful dresses!), you're still a man, but you aren't trying to appear as a man, are you? Instead, you're expressing a gender identity of a woman. And this is why most standard definitions of transgendered are like that of Miriam-Websters: "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth." But again, to reinforce, being transgendered as we are does not mean we are not men. Perhaps this helps? As for the term transgender being an example of a "'universally accepted' labels for human beings that have been wrong, sometimes with tragic consequences", why on earth would that be the case? What evidence to you have to suggest it? It's an excellent, non-offensive, sensitive term that we should be proud of, not running away from.
It can sometimes take a while to realize that when you are dressed it is simply fun a pleasure that one is feeling. that one has these feeling because dressing makes the individual feel that way. One starts to learn that most women don't share those feelings while dressed. That one has no true reference point for "feeling like a woman". That feeling pleasure dress does not equal feeling like a woman. That being dressed and made up fully doe not translate into comfort or desire with "behaving feminine" or engaging in "feminine activities". That in the end it was all about the dress after all and not a metamorphosis into womanhood.
Last edited by ReluctantDebutant; 05-29-2015 at 09:15 PM.
Thank You, ma'am...
You know, the way it sits for me is that I really feel disappointed when I hear/see people say "I'm not transgender because I don't do ABC" or "I'm not a crossdresser because I do XYZ". I'd like to think that we as a community are more understanding and have more insight and information than the population at large. But, it seems that isn't the case. It's sad because we can do a whole lot better than we have. As I've said before, how can we realistically expect the general population to understand us if we are so fractious on our own?
DeeAnn
The problem is, DeeAnn, this "community" is an artificial construct cooked up by sociologists in some think tank somewhere without heed to whether or not a cross-dresser, transsexual, genderqueer, etc. had the similar outlooks, motivations, desires, upbringings and so on. We were al unceremoniously dumped under this Umbrella "transgender" without being consulted. It might as well have made the category "people who wear clothing not designed for their birth gender". It is as if they lumped a people into a category of "those who read books" without looking closely at the different genre of books people read.
This isn't to say that the groups in the transgender umbrella should be opposed to each other. But how on earth can you expect lock step uniformity among this group, when you have one part coming from the serious position of being trapped in their wrong gendered body and another part just gets a thrill from wearing satin lace panties from time to time? Those two are going to a very different life experiences and outlooks on the world in general. For one it might be key to their life the other may see it as a frivolous pass time. Chances are they are not going to agree on the nature of transgenderism or its importance. I don't think the group hold any personal grudges against the others it is just so hard to find common ground when all the groups start form a wide array of points.
Last edited by ReluctantDebutant; 05-29-2015 at 11:13 PM.
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