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Thread: Cross gender expression throughout life in modern western society

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    Cross gender expression throughout life in modern western society

    It is curious that cross gender expression is socially more acceptable for particular sexes at certain age periods in their lives. What is even more curious is that this social acceptance, at least in western society, is almost diametrically opposite for men and women although this changes with age. Let me explain.

    From birth until the onset of early non family socialisation (typically 3-4 years) certainly with the family unit it is quite acceptable for a broad range of gender expressions to be acceptable for either sex child. Toys for this age bracket are typically genderless, clothing is also fairly genderless at least in a casual setting and even more "formal" clothes are often of similar form and differentiate the genders by colour.

    In the next stage of peer socialisation (from ages 4 through to puberty) there is considerably more restriction of gender expression for boys with a strong expectation of typical "boy" play with cars, trucks, toy weapons etc. Boys who play with dolls or cooking sets or dress ups role play even when the dress up is a "male" dress up are often strongly socially criticised, the term "sissy" often used and they are often actively discouraged or prohibited from any sort of cross gender expression. The wearing of anything other than pants and a shirt in any social setting is highly frowned upon and discouraged or prohibited. Curiously girls in this age bracket have far more leeway in terms of their gender expression. "Tomboy" is a label that carries with it an element of pride "She's our real Tomboy" is often heard. Girls who play with cars and trucks are seen as being assertive and praised. Girls in this age bracket have a wide range of clothing choices in almost all social contexts and will be accepted in almost all social environments be they wearing pants and shirt or skirt or dress.

    The onset of puberty however sees a marked and dramatic shift in the ability of girls in particular to express their gender. The 16 year old "tomboy" is no longer praised for their assertiveness and pride is replaced by a wishfulness on behalf of family and society for the individual to strictly conform to social expectations of their birth sex. "She could be so pretty if she just wore a dress" is a phrase often heard to describe the tomboy teenage girl. Worse still the sexually mature girl who does not conform to social expectations of her gender and she now is the subject of rumour and innuendo "Maybe she doesn't like boys" or "she will never find a good husband if she doesn't start behaving like a lady". Any strong close female friendship is scrutinised and criticised. Conversely boys at the onset of puberty actually find they often have far more freedom in their expression of gender. Long hair in boys of this age is often praised as a sign of individuality and rebelliousness. Even makeup is not socially prohibited with boys who may chose to wear makeup being regarded as artistic or thespian rather than ridiculed as "sissy". Similarly with clothes boys start to have much more choice in terms of fabrics, colours, patterns, even to the point where whilst unusual a teenage or early twenty something boy in a skirt is socially tolerated and again often praised for their individuality. Close male friendships are regarded as quite normal in this age group and indeed encouraged with the individuals in question widely regarded as being "just really good mates".

    We now move in to the age of family and career. From the age of 25 both men and women have extreme social pressures and expectations placed on them to conform to societal gender roles. Women are expected to rear the family and provide a stable home environment for their husband whilst a husband is expected to push and excel in his career with praise and reward being received when he places career ahead of family.The woman who wishes to pursue her career is regarded with suspicion, she is thought to have an axe to grind and another one of those "feminists". Her husband is regarded with similar suspicion particularly if he supports her in those endeavours and is regarded as "weak" or worse "cuckolded". Here we find men particularly are expected to fall back into socially acceptable gender expectations. It is no accident that the rate of uptake of parental leave among fathers is less than 10% in most western societies. The new father who wishes to take parental leave is often firstly flatly refused followed by a begrudging granting of their request with the caveat that "this will set your career back, possibly permanently" despite numerous legislative stipulations that this is not only immoral but illegal. The freedom of expression in hair length, makeup and clothing style is dramatically curtailed especially if the individual wishes to progress with their career, whatever that may be. Women do regain some of their previous freedoms of expression and they do have the opportunity to pursue a career and family life though with a thick skin as they field the thinly veiled criticism of "I don't know how she does it." implying that something somewhere is amiss. She regains the ability to wear a larger variety of clothes and less makeup as her husband gives her the legitimacy of clearly being heterosexual thus the innuendo of her maybe "not liking men that much" if she chooses to wear pants and a shirt is now dropped in favour of the somewhat hypocritical "well, she can't be expected to look pretty all the time with having a career and looking after the children and the house". So a woman has the paradox of whilst being able to regain some of the freedom of gender expression she previously had, it comes at the expense of praise of others and often her self esteem.

    Finally we have the age of what I will call social retirement. This is sometimes accompanied by work retirement but not always. The individual has fulfilled their parental duties, children have left or are soon to leave hoe and become independent. They have reached the maximum height of their career advancement and can either go no further or have no wish to go further as they have finally achieved the financial and career goals that they previously had. In the absence of these social expectations and duties the individual once again finds themselves far freer to express themselves as they wish. Again a woman finds herself freed from social expectations to be uber feminine or the ideal housewife at dinner parties and has a wide variety of styles of dress from pants through to full length dresses to choose from all of which are acceptable in a variety of social settings. Short hair is also again widely accepted as being "easier to manage" and she is now free to pursue whatever interest she wishes and in most cases is encouraged to do so. Similarly men also gain the freedom to express themselves in far more flexible ways. It is now acceptable as a "grandfather" to eschew career opportunities in order to spend more time with family and grandchildren in particular. He regains some of the lost flexibility of puberty in clothing and other presentation choices and it is now quite socially acceptable for him to again grow his hair longer if he so wishes or even colour his hair. Clothing choices as well, whilst perhaps not quite as flexible as previously, increase and colourful shirts, unusual jackets, distinctive hats and the wearing of jewellery again become socially acceptable for him. Even dressing in skirts or dresses is seen as somewhat of just an unusual hobby socially and attitudes from family and friends are not unusually along the lines of "well if it makes him happy and he's not hurting anyone" especially when such expressions are kept for nominated occasions such as fancy dress parties or at home.

    The purpose of the above is to open free and frank, but respectful, discussion. Arguably when analysed over an entire society and whole of life experience cross gender expression is not a male only phenomenon and in fact exists in both sexes likely to an equal incidence and degree. Additionally BOTH sexes experience significant social pressure to conform to expected gender normative expression throughout their lives. This is not fair, for either men or women. What we must do is ensure that we do not encourage and perpetuate these societal prejudices inadvertently through our own attitudes. Comments along the lines of "Why don't women wear dresses anymore" are both inappropriate and show a lack of understanding. Similarly "he looks ugly in a dress" or "he/she would be so much prettier if he didn't have a beard" are also unhelpful and border on being hypocritical. We've all said these things, men and women on this forum and elsewhere, including myself. If we are to move forward and eliminate society prejudices to our expression of gender then we must first carefully analyse, question and sometimes yes endeavour to change our own attitudes to reflect a more inclusive, understanding and tolerant way of believing and thinking.

    Thankyou for reading

    Kate

  2. #2
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts Kate... and nicely put together...

    Made me do a little more reading around the web again and highlighted some interesting perspectives on the 'why' of crossgender expression - but I think I will need a while longer and a couple more cups of coffee before I have completely absorbed everything, although I could not support your final paragraph more regarding tolerance and acceptance among ourselves. If anyone who reads this takes nothing away other than that point, then it will be worth it!

    Thoughtful...

    Katey x
    "Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
    Stefani Germanotta

  3. #3
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    Hi Kate,

    Very well thought out post. It is very true and quite possibly for those who water here who do not feel they were born in the wrong body that being able to break free of societal constraints on dressing and wear what they want could be a potential driving force for so . . . note I did not say all folks but some folks. I think some in the Vanilla world get overly concerned by mode of dress or presentation because it challenges their concept of the neat binary (man/woman) and anything outside that binary is difficult to understand hence some of the comments you alluded to.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Hugs

    Isha

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    Aspiring Member Dawn cd's Avatar
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    This analysis is accurate in general but may fall apart in particular cases. When Adina talks about "society" she assumes it is homogenous everywhere. But societies vary from place to place and from time to time. There are permissive and traditional societies. Furthermore some historical societies have been quite liberal about gender expression in clothing and behavior. I'm thinking of some Native American tribes, modern India and classical Greece. Finally, even among contemporary traditional societies there are always some permissive micro-societies.

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    Senior Member Nikkilovesdresses's Avatar
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    Therefore the point at which society most strongly condemns displays of gender non-conformity is at breeding/parenting age.

    Since our primary function is to breed and perpetuate our species, this is entirely understandable.

    Or perhaps I'm mistaken and our primary function is to promote transgender equality and self-expression?

    And perhaps a secondary reason mainstream society frowns upon transgenderism is because they're simply jealous of the perceived freedom of expression? - also entirely understandable.

    Great pun potential with the word amiss...
    I used to have a short attention spa

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    Gold Member bridget thronton's Avatar
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    A thought provoking post - thanks

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    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    I'm going to disagree strongly with your description of how young post pubertal women are concerned, as the reactions you describe are more of how things 'used to be' back in mid 20th century. Today's women have a wide range of how they can express themselves with clothing, and can dress pretty much any way they want, as long as they stay physically in shape; even hairstyles are in the 'do whatever you want' as long as you're 'hot' otherwise. Halle Berry with the very, very short haircut is the perfect example, and there are plenty of other women out there who chop their hair off but are still attractively feminine to lots of men. Tomboys? No problem. Look at the women of the soccer teams that do sexy calenders; absolutely no question that those women are hot, sexy and female. And few men are put off by a woman in pants as long as those pants still show off her figure. Same with work; women aren't expected to wear dresses anymore. Even in bathing suits, 'boy shorts' are very, very common for women, and no one says a thing. In short, as long as a woman has a good figure, she can wear a burlap sack or a deep sea diver's suit, and still be hot and feminine. The opposite can still not be said of a guy at any age. No matter how good a build he has, wearing a dress is still forbidden, and he will face ridicule if he chooses to do so.
    Last edited by sometimes_miss; 06-06-2015 at 11:52 AM.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  8. #8
    Aspiring Member Sarah-RT's Avatar
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    I would slightly disagree with you nikki in terms of the "our function is to breed" while obviously all organisms goals is to reproduce for their species, we are unique with having 1 "clan/pack/hive" of billions of people so extinction from lack of reproduction is no longer a fear, which related to the "women and children first" in emergencies. It's becoming more common for people to either have children later in life in the west or not at all.
    Obviously the social stigma is still there though of "you haven't had kids YET?!?" Or "YOU DONT WANT KIDS?!?"

    As to the OP in regard to men being cuckolded because they support their wife not being a stay at home, it's common now that both partners must work due to the cost of living rather than letting women out of the kitchen. It's also a smart move, both partners get good jobs and try and take in the money which is what society has come to value the most. In that sense I look forward to the idea of having a "team mate" to split bills and enjoy furnishing a home with expensive items with rather than being an owner of a wife like the 40's/50's stereotype.

    I would agree with some of those observations though, male teens, especially in college seem to be allowed the freedom of experimentation of hair length, facial hair and clothing style until you get a degree, then it's buzz cuts and suits and anything else would "harm your career"

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    Kate,
    I have to say in parts what you say is true but it does read a little like the Waltons ! Some ideas are not that black and white, seeing it more from a UK perspective we have far too many single parent families the stereotypes just aren't there any more .
    I do recall my childhood years, yes the boys played rough and tumble and on the whole didn't play with girls things but much of the time the girls use to tag along with us rather than play many girlie games.
    A boy/man wearing girl's clothes was unheard of so we had very little sissy calling . The first twenty years of marriage and having young children more than filled the lives of most people I knew as it it did my own , it was just nice to have the chance occasionally to get dressed up (drab) and go for a drink and bar snack with some friends, my wife didn't have a vast wardrobe because she had neither the time or money to indulge in it . We had children to raise and educate, a home and business to run , no one ever passed comment on what was worn, life was too full !
    The biggest turning point has come at retirement age, Cding has caught up with me, but the chance of an older person wearing what he chooses and getting away with it isn't happening the old stereotypes are hitting home hard now, men don't wear dresses ! With free time comes thinking time , I know what I want from Cding and my wife has made her thoughts clear what she thinks of it !
    I'm afraid your last paragraph is always going to be wishful thinking , society needs conformity to exist and inevitably with it goes a certain amount of not accepting odd behaviour and the thoughtless comments that go with it !

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    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Kate, a thoughtful representation of the life of boys and girls. I do agree that we all need to be more tolerant on beliefs and the gender expression. I find though that as much as the LBGT pushes on it may create a backlash when the pendulum swings the other way. There is so much angst with what is going on now that it probably will be a massive backlash to a lot of things. I also study economics and wow there is stuff going on that will impact every soul in the entire world and for some not all bad. But for Europe and the entire western world, I see chaos in the future. I do expect that it will effect us directly.
    Part Time Girl

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    Very good post, Adina, but you have made sweeping generalizations. There are many people who live quite comfortably while not conforming to the situations you describe. There are teenage girls, for example, who do not care if their mothers want them to be "more feminine". I'm thinking of my non-"girly" female friends who were into sports. We seldom saw them wear anything other than pants and polo shirts and they were comfortable with that identity. Those who were more feminine, chose to be that way because they wanted to and not because they were afraid of criticism. My SO was the intellectual, bookish type when younger, and he did not feel any pressure to conform to more "macho" endeavors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    Additionally BOTH sexes experience significant social pressure to conform to expected gender normative expression throughout their lives. This is not fair, for either men or women.
    You seem to place the responsibility for conforming to gender roles on society's rather rigid views and judgments of people who do not conform. I think the people who do choose to conform (to whatever degree), do so because it is what they want, it is who they are. If a couple can afford it and a young woman stays home to raise their child, I do not think she does this because she is afraid of criticism for doing otherwise. I have friends who invested a lot of time and money in their academic degrees and careers and no one criticized them for returning to work after their babies were born.

    Most of the women I know do not feel pressured to wear long hair, makeup, dresses, etc. If they want to put in the effort, again it is their choice.

    I understand why members here will want to challenge the gender norms (even though the gap between male and female roles has narrowed considerably and it continues to do so), but I do think that most people are quite satisfied with the status quo and if they are not, they are free to live the lives they want to. Admittedly, it is more difficult for people who wish to present as the gender opposite their birth-sex.

    But getting back to your point, a popular theory is that gender roles are social constructs, with some people believing them to be strictly defined. I do believe that for the most part, people end up adhering to the roles that suit their inner needs.
    Reine

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    Thankyou for the comments.

    Dawn and Reine, I agree that I have made some broad generalisations for the purpose of brevity. Please note Dawn that I did specify in the title "modern western society" and the reason I did so is that is the society a majority of our members both were brought up in and continue to live in. Yes, there are certainly some historical and even modern "micro" societies as have been described that a less proscriptive however I would suggest that these societies are not always as apparently accepting as they may seem at a cursory glance (I am thinking of the plight of Hijra in modern india in particular here. Most of the documentaries I have seen on Hijra women have shown a marginalised group that suffer strong stigmatism from family and government services such as health care and housing).

    Individual cases will always provide apparent exceptions for broad assessments in any analysis. I could just as easily produce multiple individual cases as evidence of those broad generalisations. Even so within those cases one can find evidence of the described societal pressures. Reine, I would suggest (perhaps erroneously) that recent comments you made in another thread provide evidence for societal pressure for women to wear makeup and dresses. You commented in another thread that, no longer working in a particular social environment (a temp job I think you mentioned), you "don't often wear skirts or makeup (I'm no longer working in the temp job I had, so it's jeans, a top, and comfy shoes)". Was there not a social pressure on you to wear skirts and makeup in that job then? Wouldn't it be fairer that your performance were judged on your skills rather than your appearance? Could you not perform those skills equally well in "jeans, a top and comfy shoes"?
    I think women most certainly enjoy raising their children. However the overall numbers are clear on the negative impact this has on their career. This is not by their choice. I could recount many cases of women having to give up career advancement or even worse, being denied career advancement, as they "would struggle to cope with the demands of work and looking after children". Conversely as I said, it is not hard to interpret the numbers of men who take parental leave as a clear societal inhibition on men taking on a child raising role. Again there are plenty of individual cases of men having clear pressure placed on them to not take parental leave and even being denied access to parental leave. It is these attitudes and cases that we need to address as a society.

    For the most part do people adhere to the roles that suit their needs? Probably. The tragedy though is when they cannot and yes, most of the time this is due to society or family pressure. This tragedy is very real and we need look no further than the astounding rates of homelessness and suicide in LGBT youth to see the human impact and why we must continue to debate and question these beliefs and attitudes.

  13. #13
    Cyber Girl Bridget Ann Gilbert's Avatar
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    Like some others I found the description in the OP to be most reminiscent of 20th century western, especially American, society. The views of gender roles are changing and seem to be moving toward greater convergence. That the trend doesn't seem to extend to physical presentation is interesting. Call me biased but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "we are here to breed" perspective. Billions of years of evolutionary history are not going to be erased just because a species has a big enough brain to understand deeper motives. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species which serves the purpose of making potential mates easily identifiable. A strong force in natural selection is one that minimizes wasted effort on mating practices that will not produce results (offspring). I think there is a very primitive part of most humans' brains that causes the negative reactions to cross dressers when there is no larger context to associate with the behavior (i. e. The person has gender dysphoria, or is a performer, etc.) The man who wants to look like a woman just because he feels like it just does not compute. So in spite of the remarkable progress we in Western society have made in regards to respecting peoples freedom to express themselves however they desire, I fear there will never be universal acceptance of cross dressing.
    Last edited by Bridget Ann Gilbert; 06-06-2015 at 09:38 PM.
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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    For the most part do people adhere to the roles that suit their needs? Probably. The tragedy though is when they cannot and yes, most of the time this is due to society or family pressure.
    Who are we talking about here. Granted, LGBTQs have felt they could not adhere to roles that suited their needs and this is sad. But even this is changing. As to others outside the LGBT community? I don't know if they even think about it. If a girl doesn't want to be girly, she doesn't need to be (how many of us are girly well into adulthood anyway ) and the same is true if a boy doesn't want to be macho. There is a very wide spectrum within each gender in terms of expressing one's respective femininity or masculinity, and people find their niche, they find jobs, they find people to mate with, they make friends, they get on with their lives. The biggest sufferers in all of this are the people who wish to express a gender opposite than birth-sex (and up until recent years, people who wanted to mate with same-sex partners). The world is slow to consider this as part of the norms, but maybe this is because there is only a small percentage of people who are LGBTQ.
    Reine

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