Throwing in the towel

[Dianne S]

Good luck, Isha, to you and your wife.

[Teresa]

Isha,
I think many of us thought you had everything under control, your life was in order, it just goes to show how strong our identity issues are and what it takes to resolve them !
As I said on a previous thread of yours, at least you have the support and understanding of thoughtful wife wife who still values what she has .
It really is so hard when you keep banging against a brick wall, most mornings thinking when walking the dog that I can get through this, my life has good things in it and yet part of me just isn't relating to it !

[pamela7]

I feel it, Isha. There are days when I feel like wanting "the whole hog", and days when I feel I'm done with it, and I'm letting it flow.
I do feel I suppress/hide the probable inevitability of where I'm heading. It's not our conscious fears at play I fear, it's the unconscious.

Wishing you joy wherever this leads.

xxx Pamela

[stefan37]

There is no control over GD. When it's your time it's your time. Those that have no idea what I'm talking about. Great. For those when "it's their time" will know exactly what I'm talking about. Kaitlyn referred to it as "ringing the bell". I was in the same place as you Isha 6 years ago. Life Was tolerable as a male yet had this urge to let the world see my feminine side. That inner urge for stronger and so intense I had to accept reality and have been full time for 2 years. I hope transition is not your path. But just know that if it happens you had no control. It's in you and probably always has been.

[Jenny Elwood]

And the Venus flytrap lures another. Personally I think you've spent too much time on this forum... it clouds the thinking. Sorry, I can't be "supportive", though I sometimes experience my own TS issues.

Good luck Isha, you're gonna need it. (And sorry for being the wet blanket).

[Persephone]

Yes, Isha, I am going to both high five and hug you because you are one terrific person.

May your happiness continue to increase.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[ReineD]

However, if you look back through my posts I have been quite consistent with my take that I always think of myself as a male first and foremost irrespective of how I am dressed. Yet the concept of "feeling female" felt as natural as saying "feeling male" even though I still cannot define what either term means.

The part of your quote that I bolded is the most difficult thing for people like me to understand, so please bear with me ...

Was I slipping further down the pathway toward being TS or was I still firmly planted somewhere between (gender fluid is a term I tend to use)? I mean, I still like my guy side but with the revelation that I would soon be free to express myself female at work when I choose or grow my hair out to be more gender congruent with my female presentation, I have to admit I can see my presentation sliding from 60/40 (male/female) to 60/40 or perhaps 70/30 (female/male). However, I do not seek nor desire HRT (it has been offered by my therapist and medical system) nor to I seek surgery (again offered by my medical system within the confines of medical protocol that is). I may experience days when I feel "female" not "male" but I do not look in the mirror and hate what I see staring back (boy physiology that is).

So I will throw in the towel and admit to all that I am more closely aligned to the TS side of the spectrum than I would have admitted even a month ago.

1. I understand being a man and identifying as such, but deriving a sense of well-being out of expressing femininity.

2. I understand being a woman and identifying as such, but born with the physical defect of having a male body (thus feeling distressed over it).

3. I understand being gender-flexible and identifying as such, which means not identifying as a cis-male or cis-female (as you do below), but being elastic between the two: sometimes feeling female, sometimes feeling male, and sometimes feeling a combination of the two, even if it is not 50/50.

Where it gets confusing for me, is assigning the label "TS" to #3. I'm sorry for getting into label definitions, but so far I and many others have used the term Transsexual (TS) to define a person who wants to change their sex, either from MtoF or from FtoM ... in other words, transitioning from one sex to another. Few people have used this term to describe a transition from a male to someone who is ambi-gendered or ambi-sexed, although admittedly this too is a transition. I can further understand why it is difficult for most people to live and present in a way that makes it unclear to others what sex they are, since we do live in a binary-sex world, and I admire your efforts to get the Canadian Armed Forces to see this.

I do remember one of your recent posts where you said you felt you were transitioning (M-to-#3 ?) even though it is not, as you say, to live legally and physically as a woman. I had suggested perhaps using the term partial-transition (vs full-transition), to try to differentiate between #2 and #3, else it can get confusing. I don't think you or anyone else commented on that.

Am I am man or am I woman . . . neither . . . I am a person who wants to live her/his life as best as she/he can.

Right. So why is it that you define #3 as "going down the pathway to being TS" (#2)? Aren't both of these experiences different? Or are you one of the members here who believe that #3 necessarily leads to #2, in other words, that it's all one big continuum and that you are indeed on your way to #3.

I'm not wanting to be politically divisive or exclusionary, but it's difficult for people like me to know who you (and others) are when everyone uses the same term to define themselves, whether they transition or not, whether they identify solidly as one gender or not, etc.

Any thoughts?

<Edit>
I forgot the most important thing: good luck and best wishes as you meander down your path!

[Katey888]

Well done as always, Isha, for being prepared to share what you're going through for the further edification of others as well as yourself... you most definitely are your own man... errrm... girl... or somewhere in the middle - and that's what I'd like to comment on...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being in the middle - I think reality sees a lot of us there, swanning about across a diverse range of behaviours and degrees - I would say just this for your thought and to offer support: as nature abhors a vacuum, so societal (and military/ commerce/ government) constructs do so abhor a non-binary as far as gender goes, and in some ways it would - as you have implied - be so much easier for you to identify as female 100% for your job, even if you didn't feel that way. So don't give up on the middle ground! You're breaking ground that no (or few) others have trodden in a very important way and at a very important time for the transgender mish-mash we all represent.

Do your own thing. Be you.



Katey x

[PaulaQ]

Isha. Have you ever considered that you may be gender-fluid, rather than 100% female identified?

I had actually thought "feeling female" . Now some might think . . . big deal so you thought "feeling female".

This phrase is kind of telling to me. That, your behavior, and your general lack (so far anyway, knock on wood) of the other serious, but indirect, symptoms of gender dysphoria, sort of all point to this.

Now of course things could change, but it is entirely possible for you to have a partially feminine identity, or an identity that shifts back and forth across the male / female dividing line. I have to confess that I don't really understand what that must be like - I'm all girl here - but I know enough others who fit this that it certainly seems like a possibility for you at this point. Maybe things change - sometimes they do - but maybe they don't.

If they don't, you should really consider writing a book. Not trying to be a fan-girl here - I think the way you have approached your life is really a model and a wonderful example for other gender-fluid people.

Yet the concept of "feeling female" felt as natural as saying "feeling male" even though I still cannot define what either term means.

This took me a while to grasp. People like us - trans people of various stripes - tend to be able to notice these feelings much more directly than cisgender people seem to grasp them. In my case, the misalignment between my gender identity and my physical sex caused me genuinely horrifying pain and anguish. In your case, your shifting gender identity gives you a perspective others don't have. I'd noticed, early on, that asking cisgender women "how do you feel about being a woman" was generally the most useless question. Virtually every one of them I spoke with really had no clear idea whatsoever what they were feeling. Now don't get me wrong - I am quite certain these women felt things, and probably felt them quite directly. However, it was sort of relegated to their unconscious - sort of like asking a fish "how's the water?" All they could often really tell me were the things that they didn't like about being a woman, the stuff that made them angry, was unfair, caused them problems, etc. (There are plenty of those things, trust me, and they were all valid complaints.)

Indeed, I think a lot of cisgender people don't understand that they do experience their gender quite directly - thus all the feminist political theories that the differences between men and women are all social constructs. (The individual behaviors may be, but the existence of differences, arbitrary and shifting as they are, is rooted in the architecture of our minds, in my opinion.)

Asking a fish in the water about the water is useless. Asking a bird in the sky about the air is also pretty useless. If you want to know about either one, it's the ones that cross from water to air that would really notice things. I believe that's really where are, in terms of gender. We've lived in both worlds, and so we notice the feelings more acutely because they are in fact different in many ways, both socially and biologically.

In some ways, someone like you (assuming you really do land as non-binary / gender-fluid), may be a better observer of all this than me. I've always felt like a woman - I just didn't get to be one, so I had to fake doing things I thought men did, and trying to feel as they did. This gives me some insights and experiences that other women don't have, but I really don't understand how men feel. I just never have.

I think it is extremely positive that you are pursuing an understanding of your gender identity in such a constructive manner.

I will say that for a short period of time, after I came out to myself as trans, I felt something like this:

To be honest, there are no answers in life especially on this crazy roller coaster. What I can say is that right now I don't feel as though I could "kill off" the male side of me without loosing some part of me anymore than I could "kill off" female side of me without loosing who I am.

I felt like I had two sides to my identity. The thing is, the male side felt, for all the world, like it was dying, and taking the rest of me with it. It was horrible, and it was a manifestation of my experience with gender dysphoria, I believe. Anyway, I realized that it was something I'd constructed. It was contrived, and it was choking the life out of me - a prison who's walls were collapsing and suffocating me.

So look, you may find these feelings are sort of a stepping stone to a fully female identity, or you may find that your identity fluidly shifts back and forth across the line over time.

I'm actually betting on the latter, but who knows - time will tell. Given your honest approach to this, I have little worry you'll figure it out.

[Lorileah]

I had July14th...who had June 13th in the pool? Isha, you be who you are. I am happy that your country can see their way clear to know that it isn't how you dress that makes you a good soldier.

[pamela7]

Paula Q,
Without wanting to digress the thread, apart from pregnancy, birthing, breastfeeding, inseminating, the rest is programmed, albeit ancestrally and socially. Maybe I'm also gender-fluid but all boys have to learn how to "behave" like others, for many of us this does not come naturally - are we TG or are we just not plugged into "getting the programming"? In which case are we like a kind of autist with the gender part of the program switched or missing?

I did not ask about my gender because I did not think to, and because of significant sibling rivalry with my sister poisoning my perception of "girl", but then I recognise at time I can play naturally with the boys, other times with the girls. Perhaps i'm therefore neither or both, or fluid. Are you not now presenting as CIS female in your post-transitional sense of self? I ask because I feel this is the great unknown. How do you "know" you are M or F or fluid or have aspects of both? I feel like Isha describes - I'm parts of each.

[KellyJameson]

Most of what is talked about in the CD section holds little interest for me but a few of its members write with great sensitivity, humility,clarity and introspection.

In my opinion you are one and I always enjoy reading your comments. I think you are coming from a very healthy state of mind and place. It is not sexual fantasy run amok or past trauma but your healthy natural essence that seems to guide your words and actions.

I cannot speak for you but transitioning for me was simply recovering that which was rejected in childhood and creating the vessel that "what was rejected" was and is made best "to express it".

Others taught me that I was and am a woman by them being Men or Women, Girls or Boys

I learned what I am through others, not because of them. This is critical in my opinion.

Living as a woman offers the best climate for me to grow in. I did not do it for others or to get anything from anyone but simply to change the soil that I was living in so that I could grow better.

I'm not emotionally needy, prone to histrionics, narcissistic or desperate for love and attention.

I did not transition to change my relations with others but my relationship with myself independent of others and once this change was made it carried out into the social world.

Transitioning actually has made my relationship with others more challenging and difficult but I do not care because of the inner peace I finally have.

Wherever you end up I would not fear for you as I do for many who move on the gender spectrum because you have a very loving relationship with yourself.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Please folks, I do not want this to transcend into labels or who gets to use what term and whose sensibilities will be hurt depending on which way you skin this cat. This is my revelation on how I see things and how they affect me. It is not meant to denigrate, demean or lessen the impact GID has had on others irrespective of where they fall. This is why I hate labels but unfortunately had to use them to describe what I was feeling or it would not have made sense to many who read this. Don't read too much into what I have written. The end state is that I am currently existing between both genders, I am not mixing the genders nor have I settled on one gender over the other. I merely accepted the fact that I am not just a man wearing women's clothing but sometimes I am a woman wearing my clothing or a man wearing my clothing.

. . . Where it gets confusing for me, is assigning the label "TS" to #3. I'm sorry for getting into label definitions, but so far I and many others have used the term Transsexual (TS) to define a person who wants to change their sex, either from MtoF or from FtoM ... in other words, transitioning from one sex to another. Few people have used this term to describe a transition from a male to someone who is ambi-gendered or ambi-sexed, although admittedly this too is a transition. I can further understand why it is difficult for most people to live and present in a way that makes it unclear to others what sex they are, since we do live in a binary-sex world, and I admire your efforts to get the Canadian Armed Forces to see this.

I do remember one of your recent posts where you said you felt you were transitioning (M-to-#3 ?) even though it is not, as you say, to live legally and physically as a woman. I had suggested perhaps using the term partial-transition (vs full-transition), to try to differentiate between #2 and #3, else it can get confusing. I don't think you or anyone else commented on that.

Right. So why is it that you define #3 as "going down the pathway to being TS" (#2)? Aren't both of these experiences different? Or are you one of the members here who believe that #3 necessarily leads to #2, in other words, that it's all one big continuum and that you are indeed on your way to #3.

Hi Reine,

I used the term "more closely aligned with the TS side of the spectrum to illustrate the distance I have meandered from when I first arrived. However, I never said I was TS. Yes, I concede part of me feels female on some days and when I cannot express that side, things get chaotic in my mind. Does that make we TS? Probably not but it does point to gender dysphoria which is not just for those who identify TS.

Isha. Have you ever considered that you may be gender-fluid, rather than 100% female identified?

Hi Paula,

At this juncture I do consider myself quite gender fluid although some here will debate the use of that term as well.

Hugs all

Isha

[ReineD]

Please folks, I do not want this to transcend into labels or who gets to use what term and whose sensibilities will be hurt depending on which way you skin this cat.

I apologize for bringing up labels, but I was responding to your use of the "TS" label. I hope you can appreciate the confusion for people like me, who do not live in the skins of community members, when to some people it means "woman in a male body" while to others it means "a mix of both". We (the community as a whole) really do need to come up with a better system of communication, especially if we want the cis-world to understand.

This is why I hate labels but unfortunately had to use them to describe what I was feeling or it would not have made sense to many who read this. Don't read too much into what I have written. The end state is that I am currently existing between both genders, I am not mixing the genders nor have I settled on one gender over the other. I merely accepted the fact that I am not just a man wearing women's clothing but sometimes I am a woman wearing my clothing or a man wearing my clothing.

Thank you for your response. My SO feels the same way.

[CynthiaD]

The two most important things on this journey are

1. Figure out who you are
2. Figure out what to do about it.

Both of these take time. Nothing is automatic. My own experience might be helpful. I'm a woman who, for some unknown reason, was born with male body parts. Does this automatically mean HRT and surgery? No. What you are and what you do about it are two different things. It took a long time to realize that I'm a woman. The signs were there, they extend back to my early childhood, and they were clear. But it still took a long time to figure out the truth. Figuring out what to do about it takes even more time. I live as a woman much of the time, but not full time. Full time would be nice, but I've chosen not to, for now. That may change. I've not considered making any permanent body changes, but that may change too. Life is a journey. What's right today might not be right tomorrow. And vice versa.

I wish you the best of luck on your journey, and I'm happy for you.

[PaulaQ]

the rest is programmed, albeit ancestrally and socially.

True, but there are always differences between men and women. We seem to need them.

We've erased differences in presentation for women to the point that it's actually fairly hard for trans guys starting out to be taken for men. That is, people don't understand that they are even trying to be men when they start out. (Unlike us - you see a guy in a dress, everyone knows what he's trying to get across.) And yet, they still transition.

For example, there are very pronounced differences between men and women's speaking voices. Now some of those differences derive from physiological differences. But that isn't the bulk of the differences as it turns out. In fact, just speaking in a high pitched voice doesn't make you sound like a woman - it makes you sound like a dude with a really high pitched voice. Nobody specifically teaches men and women to speak differently. Kids just pick this stuff up. Sadly, I didn't pick it up, I'm having to relearn it all, which is hard. I know other trans people who picked it up rather readily.

There are a lot of subtle little differences in behavior. Nobody really teaches anyone these things, but they tend to sort themselves out between boys and girls. My point isn't that the way we act is programmed, but our minds seem to have a gender identity, and innate sense of who we are, and that picks up who we learn from by observation as children. We seem to need these differences - or at least we are built so that there are some. The generally stupid conclusions people have reached in the past about these things (i.e. men are better than women) are just idiotic. These are small differences, and historically, we've placed too many restrictions on women because of them.

for many of us this does not come naturally - are we TG or are we just not plugged into "getting the programming"?

You probably aren't totally wired correctly to pick up on it naturally. I wasn't. I spent a great deal of effort on my presentation in the past.

Are you not now presenting as CIS female in your post-transitional sense of self?

In a lot of ways I feel more like a cis-female. I'm just a woman. Quite feminine. I feel that I am a woman with no doubts about it. I'm not a cis-female obviously. I'm trans.

Look, it can be difficult to reflect on how these things feel in a way that's relatable to others. One of the best examples I can come up with for "how do I know I really feel like a woman in a way that I can explain to someone else?" has to do with my bisexuality. I've finally admitted to myself that I'm bisexual. I've had a fair amount of shame and internalized homophobia that I've been trying to deal with. (I'm getting there.) The relationships and attraction that embarrasses me, a lot, like many bisexual people, are the same sex ones. Namely my attraction to women. Being with a woman feels wrong to me, because of all the homophobic social stigma associated with it. I'm kind of embarrassed to talk about my past marriages - both to other women. Understand - being with a guy feels completely natural to me. (Despite my relative lack of experience with it.) As insane as that sounds - It's a little embarrassing to talk about my marriages to other women. I am embarrassed that I'm still attracted to women sometimes - sometimes quite a lot as it happens.

Believe me, nobody was more surprised than I was when I figured out that this was really what was going on inside of my head. I've calmed down about it a lot - sexual orientation seems like small stuff compared to dealing with gender identity. Or maybe I just have a mental and emotional framework for dealing with this stuff now.

If I still felt like a man, if I hadn't internalized "I'm a woman through and through", I'd think I'd be really nervous about being with men. But I'm not. That feels normal to me.

I mean look - human personalities are complex. I know I have some residual learned masculine behaviors. I also have some innate tendencies that might be considered more masculine- I'm quite aggressive compared to many woman. (I wasn't so aggressive as a man, actually, that one isn't a leftover behavior, I don't believe.)

There are a lot of things we might label "feminine" or "masculine" that really aren't gendered at all. All of us have some traits that could be masculine or feminine. It's more a question of which tools in our mental / emotional toolbox that we reach for first. Men and women, on average, reach for different stuff first - but there's quite a lot of overlap, and all of us have situations where we'll work sort of outside of the set of tools we're most comfortable with.

None of this is absolute. There are feminine men, there are masculine women. I think a lot of it comes down to differences in the ways men and women tend to communicate. The importance of these differences has been just vastly overblown by our culture over our history, much to the very great detriment of women.

[Genny B]

One thing has always been consistent in 'Isah' posts. She always keeps her head on her shoulders! I enjoy your post Isha and hope you never change mentally from where you are at. There are still things we all don't know about each other and they can have strong influences on our lives.
The male me has children I am very proud of and grandchildren too! I would love for them to meet Genny, but that hasn't happened yet and I do not see it in the near future. There were times when I wish I had transitioned but do not regret not doing it. I still love going out as Genny occasionally to embrace those moments though!

Genny B

[Angie G]

it seems you have balance to you two sides and witch way you lean we will all support you Isha. For now it seems you have the best of both worlds.
Angie

[TrishaTX]

Isha...two points from my pint of view...#1 and most important especially on Flag day thank you for your military service. Our government would have it that you would not be involved...but I would have it that if you volunteer and do what you have done...you get my sincerest thanks. I ...funny enough...do not have the balls to volunteer for service. #2...if you could get through #1 you will get through #2 which is be you. You know inside what that is. I am still working through me...probally always will ...but I am proud to know you via this site. You are a strong person and BTW can run like 15 miles. lol

[GretchenJ]

Even on those days when I am presenting male to the world, my female side will always be there interjecting her own sense of self into my male world. So right now, I am still running down the pathway but I can now see my final destination a bit more clearly in that I am both male and female timesharing one body which both genders appreciate and love. Am I am man or am I woman . . . neither . . . I am a person who wants to live her/his life as best as she/he can.

Hey Isha,

I think that you come to grips by now that you are not just a man you likes to dress as a woman at times. I believe that you have determined that venturing out en femme makes you feel like a woman as much as look like a woman.

Now that you are going to work as Isha, rather than a trip to Starbucks, or out to lunch, you are now beginning a normal 24/7 day in your feminine state. So it become more real now than just a passing fancy.

I can not speak for you but my assumption are
a) I believe that you are TG, or better gender fluid.
b) You still like your male side, as well as your female side - it just the percentages may vary depending on the day
c) Even when you are in your male side, there are some Isha personalities that go with you.

This is pretty much where I am right now, other than the courage to venture out at work. whatever you decide, may it bring you the happiness and contentment which you deeply deserve.

[LeslieSD]

Thanks for sharing the thought. I have always been exploring my true thoughts just like you. Often a same question would feel quite different from what I thought what it was a while ago. Interestingly today, I was actually asked, "are you sure you will not want to become female"? Previously my answer to this is a definite "I am sure". But to search deep down today, my thought is "maybe I am not so sure". I can totally relate to what I feel.

I had previously believed that whatever place on the gender spectrum one belongs to is a fixed spot which will not shift in one's life. But now that fact may not be so sure.

If it was true that one can move further "down" on the gender slope over time, would people start to theorize that given proper influence one can also be moved further "up" on the scale or even be move to the "normal" zone?

That is a scary and dangerous thought.

[paulaprimo]

isha, i wish you the very best on your journey. you are very lucky to have the full support of
your wife and the military. the journey is yours, and yours alone. you don't have to claim a label
for us. i'm sure there will be many bumps along the way, but follow your heart and do what is best
for isha. and i thank you for your military service also!!

[Teresa]

Paula,
I'm surprised to see the issues you get embarrassed about, I would have thought you of all people would know and accept that's how you are wired ! I guess it's along road to finding out exactly what your mind needs to be able to form a satisfactory relationship. You may recall a comment I made about transition, it's like stepping into a black hole, all your former life has gone and it takes a huge effort to climb out and try and form a new one !

I have no doubts that no matter what state I live in the future my feelings for women will never change , as a male I'm attracted to them and dressed I'm attracted to them, despite having the same feelings as Isha of not knowing where I am along the gender road , my sexual interests will never change !

[stefan37]

Transition is hardly a black hole. Yes there are potholes and foxholes to navigate. It also doesn't necessarily mean your former life is gone. Yes it changes and you are also correct it does take energy and effort. But at the end of the day your life is authentic and you longer wage internal war with yourself. There is an inner peace that transcends.

I felt and lived as Isha did for years. I didn't wear dresses to work, but I did wear makeup, nail polish pierced ears with dangling earrings and woman's clothing. The one thing I caution is be careful drawing lines in the sand.

I thought I my orientation would never change also but 3 years on hormones, 2 years full time. I'm finding some guys attractive.

Hopefully those gender fluid individuals posting here can find a comfort level living in the middle. Just be aware that even though you have control now things could change. We do not have any control how our Gd will manifest.

[AnnieMac]

Hmmm, I still dunno Isha. Sometimes I thing CDing and gender identity issues are a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is, I notice the more often I cross dress, the more often I want to do it, kind of fueling the fire as it were. The less often I get to do it (because I am a closet girl), the initial desire immediately is I want to do it very badly, but then after a longer period of time, the desire fades a reasonable amount. So maybe it's just in my case, but it's a little like a habit that forms.
So Isha maybe you should try this, I wonder what would happen. Don't dress, think or doing anything female for about two months, be your normal male self, and see what you fee like after that. I know, I know what you will say that "but I've already been my male self my whole life", and that is true, but not after you have had this revelation and experience of being Isha.
Now I know I don't personally presume to know you very well, but I see these patterns in myself at times, and from the outsiders view, perhaps they exist in you as well. And, wherever anyone is on the gender continuum, I seem to see this pattern quite a bit here on this forum, especially to the newfound CDrs that are experiencing the initially euphoria of the female CD experience.
-Just a nutty girlie cross dressers thoughts -Annie