Has Jenner gone too far?

[pamela7]

probably both perspectives are right:

everyone has an inner self-interest and an inner altruist, and I see both in action here. If you can't see his actions are helpful, then you have forgotten the maxim that "all publicity is good publicity". That he benefits from it - so what?

[AllieSF]

Pamela,

"his" actions?? Do you mean "her"?? Please clarify

[pamela7]

"her" indeed, not an intentional wording, but revealing the dangers of not thinking about political correctness before writing, especially here. Apologies to all offended.

[stefan37]

That slip up is exactly what those of us that transition experience on a daily basis with employees, customers, families and friends.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yikes...Political correctness??????
Pretty incredible

that's not the right reason to call Caitlyn by her proper pronoun.....

[Badtranny]

Yikes...Political correctness?????? ..

LOL that was my first thought. Ooops gotta get the pronouns right or they'll be upset. Even someone who secretly dresses like a woman doesn't have any regard for the plight of the TranSitioner, but I guess that's the point isn't it.

The funny thing is that single post illustrates the divide between the dressers and the lifers better than anything I could have ever written.

They simply don't understand Kait. Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other. I'm open to an argument about a homosexual spectrum that works in the trans phenomenon, but nothing about my life is predicated on a desire for any particular underpants.

There have been a few veiled comments (perhaps the more direct ones were deleted) suggesting that the 'TS faction' was being divisive on this issue, but what we're really doing is just defending a sister in a forum where the need to do so was unexpected. It's interesting to me that the TS community is mostly of one mind across the social media landscape. There are certainly some trans detractors, but for the most part this is the first issue in the new millennium that hasn't split the trans community in half. Even the opportunist Molloy has come out on the right side of this, and that pretty much means that there really is no conflict to stir up. Everyone of any note is surrounding Ms Jenner and we are essentially taking quite a beating on FB, Twitter, etc. The volume of hate is overwhelming and I gotta say, it is more than a little bit frightening to realize how much of this country doesn't respect our lives, forget respecting the damn pronouns, they don't want us to exist at all.

It's pretty wild to write something to counter an awful comment on FB and then temporarily become the target of so much vitriol, and that's just a fraction of what Jenner is dealing with. I was a radio personality in my old town back in the '90s so I was a little too well known for me to deal with transitioning there. I moved because I didn't have the courage to explore anything there, and I wasn't really THAT well known. It was mostly in my head and frankly I was mostly forgotten. Even so, I moved to another part of the state so I could have some space. Ms Jenner does not have that luxury. There is no where in America where she could escape scrutiny. She tried having feminization procedures done in secret but the paps were hounding her every move. Look at Bruce's hair, look at Bruce's moobs, look at Bruce's nose, look at his adam's apple, etc etc.

What Jenner is doing is like transition on steroids. Yes she has money and time for procedures but she also is under a microscope that none of us can even begin to comprehend. Unlike some of the stuff I read here in our own TS forum, pretty much everything Caitlyn is saying about her transition rings very authentic to me. Most of it is uncomfortably familiar and she is undoubtedly walking the same horrifying path that so many of us here have walked. I can't recall one comment she's made regarding her transition that sounded like BS to me, and I think that's why the overwhelming majority of TS broads have her back. We really believe she is one of us.

She is not a perfect person or a perfect transgender spokesperson, but ...I think reasonable people know that there are no perfect people. Nobody's perfect at anything. Except Bruce Jenner on a certain day in 1976, when he ran, and jumped, and threw his way into the record books. We know today that he was actually running from Caitlyn, don't you think that maybe she has earned the right to finally stop running?

[kimdl93]

Caitlyn Jenner didn't create the media sideshow. After 39 years of varying degrees of notoriety, she could neither escape it, nor hide from it.

Is the media coverage tiresome? Only to the extent that it feeds of the inevitable and seemingly insatiable human appetite for salacious gossip. But to some extent, a little, factual and empathetic content slips through. Many people are learning. Many people are gaining new insights and, perhaps, a bit more capable of feeling a measure of empathy.

[Belle Cri]

Hi I'm very new here, so forgive me if I've covered existing ground, but...years ago I had a beautiful head of stunning red hair. It went the way of the world, alas. Then Bruce Willis came along. I get double taken sometimes for him since I'm bald. What a relief. I worship him. Now Kaitlyn Jenner has come along. What a relief. I now worship her as well. Let's face it, if I can look like her at 65 and pull it off in front the entire US and world media, I'm in. Good for her. I know, well I suppose everyone here does, what she has had to live through and it is horrible. Glad to see it, about time.

Belle

[pamela7]

its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).
With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.

So perhaps the message here is to cut some slack on pronouns or delete all gender-referring ones. Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant. We've enough to worry about without over-reacting over a mistake.

[Belle Cri]

That was very aptly put. Please feel free to correct my grammar or usage - I know all too well what an inadvertent slipped word or concept can do to a discussion, and it is almost always never intentional in my experience, just simple cultural ineptness or unfamiliarity. So in that spirit, educate away - I'm quite interested in developing usage norms actually because, as in my case, it is a process of self definition and ownership, i.e., self worth, and that is always a key

[Shelly Preston]

Having seen all the comments so far I thought I would add this in response to the original question

A Soldier Who Got Tired Of Reading That Caitlyn Jenner Isn’t A Hero Wrote An Amazing Response

“What if I told you that her speech last night saved even one human being from attempting to take their life.”

[Tina_gm]

I am going to agree with Pamela on this. I do not feel compelled not to call Caitlin Bruce, or refer as he instead of she. By all means I am always for referring to anyone who wishes to be called and considered what they wish to be. 40 years of He and Bruce does not get erased easily, no matter who we are, even us. One would hope that even those who are going through transition after so many years as the wrong sex should be able to at least forgive us who always knew them or thought of them as their prior name and gender.

[emma5410]

its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).

I do not see what the use of the correct pronouns has to do with whether he (not he-she) has had the op or not.

With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.

It is rude and inconsiderate not to refer to a transsexual by their proper gender. People make mistakes and all transsexuals get misgendered. We accept that but in the current context of this thread, and all the attention currently on Caitlyn, it is astounding that you can mis-gender her.

Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant.

We are communicating (or not) in English.

[Tina_gm]

I really do not find how it is astounding when thinking of someone who I have seen for 40 years on tv, and not sometimes refer to that person as they were. Wasn't it just a few months ago CJ was admitting to be TG, and was doing so presenting as male, and still being called Bruce? People who we have known or known of for 40 years and they make a sudden announcement that they are TG and wish to be called by a female name, changing to "her" and their preferred name does not just happen like a light switch. I do try to refer to CJ by the name she wishes and her preferred gender pronoun. But seriously, 40 years of being BJ and he, and just a few months of CJ and she, and if we don't get it right its horrible?

[emma5410]

All you have to do is read your post before you submit it and check the pronouns. Is that so difficult?

[Lorileah]

and yet MISS Sally Smith becoming MISSUS Bob Jones doesn't trip people up But that wasn't the OP was it?

[grace7777]

I have discovered that I am a lot more than a CD, now as to being TS, this is what I need to sort out, and being out en femme in public a lot, I have become very sensitive to misgendering. For me to present as a woman and be misgendered is not very pleasant. So I make sure that I do not misgender others. Now being referred to as ma'am or miss makes me feel good.

To misgender someone by mistake is something I can understand. After all none of us is perfect. To do it deliberately or to not make an effort to gender someone correctly is just plain wrong. Sadly it seems some people even on this forum do not care about misgendering someone.

[Marcelle]

. . . Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other.

Melissa,

I enjoy your posts and your insights as I do many others here but I have to admit that the use of your term "hobby" is disconcerting. You have lashed out at the CD community writ large for not understanding the TS community and what it means to you be a woman. Granted, I am fully cognizant that some who water here do make that mistake but then again to assume that this is a hobby would imply that one can merely go their merry way at the drop of the hat should it not suit their fancy. As much as many a CDer may wish to proclaim that is it is only about the clothes, I would suspect that a certain modicum "gender dysphoria" is at play since very few if any can truly quit this "hobby". So your comments IMO indicate a lack of understanding on what it means to some of us be stranded along this spectrum.

As for the spectrum, how do you explain people like me. On some days I identify as a woman and on others I identify as a man. Now, you might think "impossible, you are one or the other", but then again it wasn't long ago when people thought it was impossible to believe you were a gender opposite to your sex birth. I am quite public and to some degree have given up everything to be "who I am" and that includes going public in my work place. So while not TS, I do not consider myself "just a dresser".

Respect goes both ways.

Isha.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do. As a cd I dont misgender people who are ts, I fully understand that CJ is completely a woman and wether or not we knew it she always was, and I definately recognize the courage it must take for her to come out and transition before the world and the awareness that she is bringing to our community. Just sayin.

[Tina_gm]

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as. Even after GRS, they still will feel they are not another gender. Others may do it just to do it. When it comes to almost everyone on this forum, any misgendering is not due to any of us not caring. Just as with CJ, for those who initially signed up and were CDers, and identified as male, then later on identified as female, for any of us to use the wrong pronoun, especially in the beginning shouldn't be the end all of travesties. I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too. I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.

[emma5410]

I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too.

It is okay for you to do it because they have struggled with it and suppressed it all their lives.

I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.

So you are saying it should not be a pass but should be a pass.
All it takes is to read what you have written before you post.

[pamela7]

that's right Emma, I did not even think nor realise to gender-edit my post. my error. all i can do it try to be sure i don't repeat the error, by gender-checking all my posts hereafter.
i'm not going to take any s**t thought for what it was.

[TerriM]

Catilyn has effected my life in a positive way. Since her coming out my wife of 44 yrs and I have had more discussions in the last month of my being TG then we have had in our whole marriage.
Terri

[Sara Jessica]

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as.

Exactly. This is where the haters in various "comments" sections think they are being really clever. "Oooh, look...I called Caitlyn "he", ain't I just hilarious". Fact of the matter is that there is a more insensitive term out there used by the idiots who amp up their so-called cleverness by referring to anyone TS as "it".

These uses of words both minimizes the trans condition and in the case of the latter one, utterly dehumanizes the individual.

Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do.

It is because if anyone should know better, it's anyone participating in these pages.

Besides, as has been said before, we have the ability to proofread our words here which takes away the excuse of "not having a filter" when using our words in speech.

Respect goes both ways.

Indeed it does.

Keep in mind that most of us recognize the (unwritten?) rule that says to gender the person in accordance with their presentation, whether dealing with one who is TS (duh!), CD or anywhere in between. Yet on the M2F CD side of the fence, there are some who do not wanted to be addressed as she or her. I think these individuals are in the minority and I will always be cautious by gendering the person in accordance with their appearance. I have yet to be corrected. This is both common sense and playing the odds which are heavily in your favor if you gender the person on their appearance.

Reminds me of those times when I get "sir'ed" when presenting as a female. it's like, "what part of my appearance makes you think sir in any way, shape or form???"

Oh, don't even answer that!!!

[JayeLefaye]

Just chiming in as a response to the original question.

No, I don't believe that she has gone too far. I do, however, believe that a lot of us haven't gone far enough, and I'm not talking how far from the closet we wander. Sometimes, it's NOT just about the clothes. It's about things that we can't see. For us plain ol' CDers, we can put on as many frillies as we like, but that doesn't change what we are inside. Apparently we can still be judgemental, overly-critical, intolerant, etc....I've said this once before, and I'll try not to repeat it over and over, but just because I wear a skirt, that doesn't give me the right to act like a b!tch.

In regards to Ms. Jenner, and the public aspect of it, it seems to be a case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"...Criminy!!!! Please walk a mile in her heels before you decide not to cut her any slack.

In regards to The Espy's...Yes, they were created by a "Sports" Network, but each award has its own designation. The Arthur Ashe Award is NOT based on sports performances, current or past. It is based on "Courage". And yes, there are many deserving nominees, but as in any "award", there can only be one winner. I won't dignify the rumor mills as too why/how Ms. Jenner won. Nor do I care about ESPN's motivations. "Maybe we all deserve an Espy"???? Only if they come in different sizes so that we can see just how brave we are in our struggles in comparison to others. I mean, size matters, right?(how do I find the sarcasm emoticon thingy?)...I, myself, would be appalled if anyone were to think that what I go through in my day to day life is ANYTHING like what Ms. Jenner, and the TS' here go through on a moment-by-moment basis!

All I really care about is being able to see one person, being seen by millions of people, standing tall and speaking eloquently, honestly and sincerely, and in the process, actually making a real difference in the real world...Not the "real" world of the K's Clan, but in the real world of the young girl/boy and their families/friends watching, listening and hopefully gaining a touch of understanding regarding an issue that previously, to them, was not acknowledged, for whatever reasons.

Is Ms. Jenner the first ever? No. Is she the best ever? No. Does she deserve to be judged against those who came before? No.

I have to hit "Post" now, else I'll go off on a rant.

Love to her, and all!

Jaye