That was my point. I'm glad you picked up on that.
I don't like it when a total stranger tries to pin a label on me that I don't identify with. We have labels and we need labels but labels do no good when people don't agree on what the labels mean.
That was my point. I'm glad you picked up on that.
I don't like it when a total stranger tries to pin a label on me that I don't identify with. We have labels and we need labels but labels do no good when people don't agree on what the labels mean.
Perfectly fine. I appreciate your restraint. As I said, I'm not going to try and tell you what you feel -- only you know that and I respect that.Originally Posted by Krisi
Hi gendermutt -- no I wasn't specifically responding to you (or Krisi) though I was reacting to everything everyone had to say.To Jenni-cd, not sure if you were meaning you generically, in your response to my post, but I do not classify myself as a cis-gender male.
My sense is that there's this perfectly serviceable term, transgender, which provides a needed abstraction under which to group all the different non-binary gender issues. We shouldn't throw that out.
If I was reading the tea leaves, I believe in a future I won't live to see we'll recognize CD/TV/crossdressing as a behavior and not an identity. Some word will come into vogue that carries the sense of the current "genderqueer" which means someone who chooses present in a way not aligned to their birth gender and that will be the happy home of 99% of what we call crossdressers now -- they're presenting in a non-traditional way and their choice of a way to do that is the behavior of crossdressing.
Admittedly, there are cases where someone might crossdress and not be expressing transgender issues -- actors, for example. I think someone mentioned hazing rituals, etc. Those cases are somewhat involuntary and the crossdressing isn't a case of self-expression in itself. In our case it's voluntary and we're clearly expressing something about ourselves. I think that fits in the general definition of transgender, but if you don't that's OK. I just think that the problem has more to do with a fundamental communications problem (i.e our definitions of transgender don't align.)
Are words and labels important? Yes, I think that's pretty demonstrable. If you go into the store for a ham sandwich and the guy gives you a chainsaw because you can't agree on terms, that's an issue. But does it have an effect on you if someone else thinks you're using the wrong label? No. It's all theory. We discuss it because we're interested in ourselves and we're trying to understand ourselves and perhaps by hearing what others say we will have an insight. That's all.
Maybe this is heretical, but I don't think labels are necessarily bad, even if we disagree about their meanings.
The important thing to keep in mind is that labels are a gross simplification, useful for certain purposes. And any given person is certainly a lot more than just a collection of "labels".
I'm transgender. That's a label I happily accept. But that does not define my entire existence. I also have the labels "parent", "frustrated amateur musician", "business owner", "software developer", "HR manager", "columnist", etc. All of these labels are very useful to illuminate particular facets of who I am.
The trouble comes when people apply labels and then don't see beyond the label. Some people would categorize me as "mentally ill" or "sinner" and refuse to see beyond that label. They would simply negate every other aspect of my being and that's why we react strongly against labelling.
So anyway, I would label a crossdresser as "transgender" because I believe crossdressers are somewhere on the TG spectrum. I wouldn't for a moment imagine that the label describes their entire personalities or that they necessarily even agree with it... it's just a label for my convenience and not a judgement about anyone.
I don't think its heretical to suggest that grouping people (versus labelling) is important - I think you've got it right Dianne...
Most of us are happy to accept consensual categorisation that may be earned or aspired to: teacher; surgeon; engineer; father; footballer; moderator (threw that in for a laugh...) etc.
Whether we like it or not, society at large categorises us in all sorts of ways, independent of our agreement: employed; retired; expatriate; caucasian; blonde; male and female... etc.
And whether we like it or not (or care), other folk will apply judgments too: short; fat; ugly; stupid; pikey; gopping; sexy; etc.
The first two categories matter - to a degree - the third one really shouldn't, although to some extent it often does... but we have the power to get around that: we just ignore it.
Like it or not, you will be categorised in some way, and if the accepted norm is that CDers are within the TG world, well fluff up a cushion and get comfy! It probably doesn't matter that much to those who disagree in the largely closeted CD world anyway.
To address Angela's OP: does this get stronger for everyone? Obviously not, or we'd all transition, wouldn't we? And that doesn't happen. It's different for everyone - and of course we all have periods of growth and recession (to borrow a phrase) but the majority of CDers will reach some plateau... as most here seem to have done. But don't discount those that stop altogether - just because we don't see many here (a very few) doesn't mean they don't exist or are more numerous. I sometimes get the feeling that those who are affected by permanent desires would like to believe that everyone else feels the same, because in some ways it's irritating to think that some folk may be able to drop this and go back to 'normal' life...
Katey x
"Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear" Stefani Germanotta
If anyone thinks names or labels are unimportant and shouldn't mater, I suggest that you consider the succession of names the people now known in the politically correct world as "African Americans" have been called.
Since this can of worms has been opened.......
It has sometimes been said that how far someone takes their CD and /or transition is often dependent on the opportunities that their life presents to them
Add to that, as one gets older they often get the feeling that life is passing them by and their TG activities get even stronger ..... feeling it's now or never.
Krisi, I get your point but your analogy is off. Things evolve, things change. What causes that change can be many things. In your example, the change was developed from within the community. You statement "African-American" even has controversy within that community since most were never in Africa and/or there are Caucasians in Africa (I know several) who are now US Citizens. Most of the word no longer being used are because others used them disparagingly.
This keeps popping up. Names and labels and are you this or that. It always ends badly. If you want to be called something, let those around you know. If you don't want to be called something, same deal. Personally I have a label or title (other than Ice Queen) that I use proudly. We never agree here what the group is called. It would be nice if we did because then maybe we could solve other issues within our community.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Personally, I agree with your comments on the term "African American", but political correctness has surpassed common sense, at least in the USA.
When I was working, I worked with a (Caucasian) lady who had been in the peace corps in Africa. One day in a conversation she mentioned that her son had been born in Africa. Being the quick witted troublemaker that I sometimes am, I said "So he's African American, right?" Boy did she get upset.
Angela, I'm afraid your question was derailed by using those contentious terms (CD, TG....). So I will give it a try without using those terms. At first you just liked to wear the clothing, but over time you have experienced increasing femininity, as expressed not just by wearing the clothes but through mannerisms, interests, etc. Has your femininity evolved or have you increasingly embraced what was always there?
So, back to the OP then.
Until you have tried something you don't know if you will like it.
Underdressing->overdressing->makeup->wig->shaving the body->more clothing varirety->going out->learning femme behaviours->being treated as a female ... where does it end?
It's gradual and unexpected, because pleasure is pleasure!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
For most of us it "ends" at some point. That's not to say you no longer do it, that's to say that many of us are satisfied to underdress, some are satisfied to just wear the clothes, some of us wear the clothes plus breast forms, wigs and other padding. Some are satisfied doing this at home, others feel the need to go out in public and hopefully be viewed and treated as women. Some folks eventually decide to actually live their lives full time as females, with or without surgery to alter their bodies to suit their minds.
Putting on a pair of women's panties does not necessarily lead to surgery and life as a female.
Does it become increasingly dominant. That would really depend on why you feel the desire to dress and behave as a female. The whole concept that your 'female side' is becoming stronger is incorrect; it's all YOU. Perhaps you have been suppressing the desire to dress and behave as a female subconsciously; it takes a certain amount of 'brain cycles' to suppress that, the same as it does, say, to ignore the feelings of hunger when you're busy doing something and have nothing to eat, eventually it becomes overwhelming because it never goes away. Same with the desire to present to yourself/the world and behave as female. Eventually your mind gives up and lets the desire take over and it floods your thoughts with all the fem stuff that you've been trying to hold back. We live in a society that considers any feminine behavior or expression to be the worst possible thing a man can do. So it causes all kinds of psychological problems for us, the most obvious, is all the tremendous feelings of guilt we have over wanting to be able to express all these female feelings we have. Are you TS? Maybe. Some clues as to whether you think as a female does can be found in books by Alan and Barbara Pease, such as http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Wo...rds=alan+pease
There are all sorts of little clues in their books about the differences between men and women. It's not black and white; you will find a very low percentage of both sexes that have some components of the other, but in general, it gives you a very good start to know if your mind was imprinted very early on as female or male. Then you will have to examine everything else in your life to see if you can find what else went on, and when, to help you determine where you stand in the female/male world, and if you can sort of straddle the line that our society draws to separate the two.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
Hate to straddle that question but both are correct. I would say I embraced what was always there and subsequently evolved.
I get that. I do. But how do you know where it will stop? I mean... I find my facial hair INCREDIBLY frustrating right now. Because it is messing up my face. So suppose I go do laser; and then decide later, well, I'm OK with stopping. (Note, this is why I am NOT making permanent body changes right now, aside from maybe getting my right ear pierced to join the already pierced left ear). How do you know that you've stopped? Or when?
I'm not sure which I would be more afraid of right now: feeling like it's over, and I'm content not going further - or not.
You don't until it does.
Hi Angela,
I can't speak for anyone but myself so this is just my perspective / experience.
I've been cross-dressing for forty years on and off. I'm still very much in the closet so far as family / friends knowing about Judith is concerned. As far as being confident when out & about en-femme is concerned, I had a peak in my early to mid twenties and then again from late forties onwards. And over the years, especially mid twenties, I did flirt with the notion of going full-time, maybe even transitioning. However, as I review all of this I can't really say that my feminine side is really noticeably stronger than forty years ago. In male mode I'm as masculine as I ever was (not desperately macho or anything but not effeminate either). En-femme I'm now conscious of a 'gear shift' - I behave more femininely and my mannerisms do change a little. It's rather like playing a role though more of a sub-conscious thing than conscious. I recall reading Leonard Nimoy describing how "putting on the ears" affected him. It's a bit like that.
So... progression? Yes, certainly in terms of confidence, skill with makeup, self-awareness etc. In terms of increasing identifying as female - no! Forty years ago I didn't know what I was (other than 'different'). Now I identify as a cross dressing male and recognise that that's what I've been all along.
Not going to flame you Stefan, but I'm not sure that I entirely agree.
I'm not going to get into the whole "are all CDs really TG?" thing. Frankly I neither know nor don't care.
However, I don't really agree with the "If it was only about clothes they wouldn't have a need or desire to wear forms, or use female names" assertion. For me (can't speak for anyone else) forms are part of the illusion. Forms help me to 'look right'. I remember when I bought my current pair of silicone forms to replace a foam pair that I though were 'quite big enough' I wondered out loud if they were a little too big, to which the lady with whom I was dealing responded "no, they're more in proportion" (and no, she wouldn't have made less by selling me a smaller pair). And yes, I admit to loving the feel of them
As for using a female name... there are three scenarios where I use 'Judith' rather than my male name-
- When en-femme in the real world
- When on here
- Online, when making purchases for 'Judith' or making any form of reservation for a real world activity that will be en-femme
In these situations it feels incongruous to use a male name. The rest of the time I'm quite content with it!
I reckon that for me it IS "all about the clothes / makeup / jewellery"
If it was only about the clothes/makeup/jewelry. Then you would own your male identity and forego the breast firms, female name, etc. There has been members here that crossdressed yet there avatar name was male. They were male and their male identity didn't change while dressed. You had thoughts of transitioning when you were younger. Cis identified individuals would never contemplate transitioning. For many the thought is abhorrent.
I will stand by my statement. Those that have a compulsion to cross dress and assume female names, mannerisms etc are to some degree TG.
You explored and found you are comfortable with a male identity. But there is a female identity component. That other identity is not present in Cis individuals.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
This, I guess. Self-discovery is an ongoing process. At some point you may reach a place where you're comfortable - if not, you either keep going or decide that you'll accept being less comfortable because you can't or won't take the steps you need to take to get to that other place.You don't until it does.
I personally find the thought of transitioning to be incredibly stressful for many reasons. I don't know if I'll eventually get to a point where I'll feel the need to do it. If I do, I guess I'll address it at that time.
I don't know... If you lump everyone who has even thought about a transition into the transgender spectrum, you'd probably be talking about a pretty substantial percentage of the population - especially now, as awareness and acceptance are increasing. You'd probably shock a lot of people who consider themselves totally cis-gender, too.
Stefan, you're in danger of being too dogmatic on the basis of limited and insufficient information.
I do 'own' my male identity. If you met me in male mode you would be in no doubt of that. I choose not to reveal my male identity on here because I'm not 'out' to my family and friends.
I also 'own' my 'right' to wear what I want. Whether I have a 'female identity' to 'own', that is anything more than a 'role', I'm not convinced. (Eg to what degree was the late, great Leonard Nimoy ACTUALLY Spock? - even he was never entirely sure)
You have no idea how serious or otherwise (my phrase 'flirted with the idea' might give an astute reader a clue) any thoughts of transitioning that I had when younger might have been - so you're neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to draw any conclusions!
NOW you may need to don your flameproof underwear!
I don't know why you feel compelled to distinguish between CD & TG. Many perceive TG as an 'umbrella' term that includes CD. You clearly don't.
Having a female component to ones personality does not make one TG (using either definition). If it did then everyone would be defined as TG! Having a female component to ones identity MIGHT (though i suspect that's more common than anyone imagines). Do I have a female component to my identity? Perhaps. Or perhaps it's a role. Whatever it might be you are most certainly not, for reasons stated above, in any position to discern. You're certainly NOT in any position to contradict me.
The one thing that I am NOT is 'in denial'.
Now let's get back to the OP's original question which is far more interesting and relevant.
You seem to be very offended I think those that have a compulsion to CD are also TG to some degree. It's my opinion and experience with those that CD and my Cis male and female friends.
You disagree with me. That's your opinion and experience. But it seems I struck a nerve.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
I so agree with you!Why do we keep on disqussing this issue? Can't we just be who we are and be happy? All persons are unique in his/her own way and deserves respect.
I agree, cis-people who have no inclination to present as the opposite gender (like me, or my brother, or most people), do not contemplate transitioning, obviously. But, this is not the case with cis-people who do enjoy presenting as the gender opposite than birth.
There are many people in this community who've gone through periods of Pink Fog where the positive feelings were so intense and there was such a let-down when reverting to male-mode, that they wondered who they are, what they wanted, did they want to go further and how far, etc, etc. My own SO looked into hormones at one point and would have loved to have had a pair of real breasts that she could deflate while in male mode. She wanted to go out in public and not be read, she wanted to know exactly what it feels like to be a woman ... at all levels. And then, as happened with my SO and I dare say many others here as well, things calmed down considerably with more freedom and the disappearance of both internal and external barriers (if CDers are so lucky as to have supportive partners or if they are single and if they stop feeling as if they "shouldn't" be doing this). My SO gave herself permission to just go with the flow and s/he got to the point where s/he simply knew that s/he could dress and go out whenever and wherever s/he wanted to. And she did ... a lot. She went out in public for years until the mystery and the newness wore off to the point where dressing to just stay at home often became old hat and more trouble than it is worth. This does not describe someone who has GD. Yet, my SO did look into hormones. Is my SO TG? Yes. Does my SO identify as a woman? No. Is my SO cis-gender? Fundamentally yes, although my SO is a male who is gender fluid ... similar to Judith above.
Just because there are some TSs who identified as CDers before they realized they wanted to take it all the way, does not mean that every CDer who gets lost in Pink Fog is not cis-gender.
It is difficult to convince two types of people that what I say above is true: some TSs, and cis-gender CDers who are in the throes of Pink Fog and who have not gotten to the point where they have complete freedom (internally and externally) with the CDing.
As to the "TG" vs. "CD" debate, we will continue to have disagreements as long as there are two major trains of thought about the definitions: those who think that "TG" describes everyone in the community who cross the gender lines to some degree, regardless of their gender-identity (even those who just dress for fun or who just wear panties), and those who believe that "TG" necessarily means that the person in question has GD and a gender identity opposite or different somehow than birth sex. There's just no point in members who cannot agree on what "TG" means, having a discussion about this.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-26-2015 at 04:36 PM.
Reine
Nice try but I'm not biting!
The term transgender is very useful term which englobes anybody who crosses the gender norms attached to any society. However, it must be stated that the term is frequently misunderstood as a synonym for transsexuality, specially in the media, everywhere.
It seems that when you say that you are transgender, people automatically thinks you will transition. This is because the term has never been explained profoundly by the people who should do the explanation, that is, us, the transgender community.
But sure, transgender does englobe crossdressers, androgynous, bi-gender... and we should defend the correct use of the term, instead of trying to divide the already small community. Stand united, be strong, and advocate a better understanding and acceptance.
You people from the United States sure lack knowledge about the word Caucasian, or even what Africa is. When you use the term "African American" to refer to black people from the United States, you are forgetting that Northern Africans and many South Africans are Caucasian too.When I was working, I worked with a (Caucasian) lady who had been in the peace corps in Africa. One day in a conversation she mentioned that her son had been born in Africa. Being the quick witted troublemaker that I sometimes am, I said "So he's African American, right?" Boy did she get upset.
You are also forgetting that black people from the United States, are not "African American", they are simply American, but damn you keep failing to see this.
Even the term "American" is wrongly used, because it makes people forget that America is much more than just the U.S.
Sorry, but it makes me rant when I see things like this, and I had to point it out.
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