Tg mtf

[Kaitlyn Michele]

right becky...if male priviledge is some kind of given and its bestowed on males just because they are males, then there is nothing to shed...you live as a female and its gone..

I think getting used to it being gone, and learning to be productive and happy without benefitting can be jarring..

in my own case specifically, I am sure I reaped benefits and ive experienced being smart and businesslike "for a woman" and had moments where I think my male indoctrination gave people pause, but who cares really...
i'm ok, they are ok and we all move on... to me its an overblown thing because I never lived my male priviledge authentically anyway ...and if a group of women feel im somehow different because my male priviledge is showing under my slip, I just deal with and have confidence in my authentic life, warts and all...

[LeaP]

My wife is sensitive to male privilege and will invariably point it out when it crops up, which is virtually all of the time we are together. It can be as simple as the assumption that I'm the decision maker on a purchase. My wife asking a question and having the answer directed at me. My name being automatically assumed as primary on accounts. Being solicited for assistance when she can't even get the salesman's attention ... even in a women's section of a store. Having a technician engaged with her, and the tech turning to me when the diagnostic is discussed. Being handed the wine list. There are a million, great and small. The evidence is everywhere in male primacy and dominance. Social deference is ubiquitous.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

[becky77]

to me its an overblown thing because I never lived my male priviledge authentically anyway ...

That's my view point also, but Kathryn's reply suggests that's not possible.

[LeaP]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

I would say that it matters where it matters. That's a personal thing. I have been very asocial all of my life and intensely dislike being the center of attention… Including all those things that my wife tends to cite. In that regard, I would hope that many of the day to day occurrences would not only not be a problem for me, but may actually be more comfortable. As you know, however, I plan on transitioning at work and am in a senior position. Women have made some headway, but still have a long way to go. That especially applies in executive management and even more so in technology, which is HEAVILY male dominated. Still, I tend to believe the bigger part of that problem is being trans… Other problem areas reportedly subtle but potentially serious, such as medical treatment.

[Kathryn Martin]

Thank you Lea. It is astonishing how unbiquitous it is. Having been raised in this environment, which is essentially true and is in the nature of someone transitioning from male to female means that we tend to take certain things for granted. This does affect our behaviors, and that is what needs a lot of unpacking.

Becky, I am certainly not always right. However, I would suggest to you that a summary dismissal of the issue and denial that you are affected in any way is not useful for anyone who wants to transition. Most transwomen become defensive around this issue in particular because it threatens the narrative of always having been girl, woman. You cannot possibly believe that socialization does not matter.

[whowhatwhen]

Mail privilege is why I went back to working at the post office.

[stefan37]

Those of us that are older and lived a majority of our lives as male have absolutely benefited from male privilege. It was ingrained in us at an early age and in essence was subjegated in the background. It was what allowed me to enter my profession and become proficient at it. Lea mentioned some of it that her wife is absolutely aware. I have experienced it attending seminars where I am the only female in a room of males. Male privilege is what allowed Cheryl to be a truck driver without the hassle of proving ability.
There are companies if you can believe it. That will not discuss a home project without the male member present. They will only accept a contract that has the male members signature. ( wrong and short sighted in my opinion since it's the wife that usually makes the decision where the home is involved).
I struggled joining NAPW and listening to the membership spiel. Predominately because the success I've experienced in my business was a direct result of being born male. I don't know if I would have been given the opportunities or support to do what I do had a been born as a Cis female.
I don't always agree with Kathryn, but I do get the gist of what she talks about as it relates to integration as a female into society.

If you were born male. You benefited from male privilege. Whether you realize it or not.

[becky77]

Thank you Lea. It is astonishing how unbiquitous it is. Having been raised in this environment, which is essentially true and is in the nature of someone transitioning from male to female means that we tend to take certain things for granted. This does affect our behaviors, and that is what needs a lot of unpacking.

Becky, I am certainly not always right. However, I would suggest to you that a summary dismissal of the issue and denial that you are affected in any way is not useful for anyone who wants to transition. Most transwomen become defensive around this issue in particular because it threatens the narrative of always having been girl, woman. You cannot possibly believe that socialization does not matter.

It's not a summary dismissal, I have not denied that is has affected my life, but that has mainly been in how others have treated me in some situations, always strangers and for not very long.

But if you don't naturally tap into it, you won't be much affected by it when it's gone.

I have never taken it for granted as it was so far removed from who I was, I've always been on the outside, it had no affect on my behaviour. Quite the opposite in that transition is like putting on the right size glove and now everything makes sense.
What's to unpack, if you never took it in, in the first place?

Of course socialization matters, my socialization has been almost exclusively with women, I've never hung with other guys, I avoided both my brothers stage do's, my Dad treated me totally different to my brothers, they got to do things I couldn't.
My uncle would send me off to cook with my aunt, while he taught my brothers how to care for his Yacht.
I've never really understood men and that became alarmingly obvious when I started dating them.

Even at work my promotions came via female friends, when I was in a male dominated environment I wasn't treated as part of the club. When after ten years I left, someone told me they thought I was camp and gay. I always felt my work had to be so much better constantly having to prove myself.
I would get dragged into the office to explain something the other guys would have gotten away with.
There is a boys club, you find out they are playing golf together and you wasn't even considered.
I have no idea why I've always been treated differently as I'm pretty sure I hid this side of me well. But when I did come out no one was truly shocked, although they didn't think it would be TS.


I have transitioned, losing MP has not been an issue to me.
I now socially fit, before I rarely went anywhere as it was too awkward, that's not the same as saying I'm ignorant to MP

I imagine it would be a threat to the 'narrative', if someone was a guys guy reaping the benefits of a man's world, that person should be asking questions of themself.

Btw is the narrative something you don't believe in? Just curious as 'narrative' sounds a bit dismissive, but it's hard to judge the context in written text.

[LeaP]

It only threatens some peoples narratives when they misunderstand what is meant by male privilege. It's a concept that is unfortunately named. When it is assumed to be some sort of gender elitism (only, or primarily), the perception of threat equates to the perception of hypocrisy. As if one was "always a girl"… yet took full advantage of the assumed elite status.

Privilege is far more complex than that. "Privileging" means attributing or assigning. Gender privileging is the entire gendered social milieu. The full body of expectations, assumptions, formal and informal rules, laws and rules, etc. that pertain to a gender. Privilege not only refers to the traditional advantages about which we are talking (the most common usage, since it addresses perceived social and political inequities), but lots of things that aren't so positive, too. Then too, it also refers to the things to which trans women often look forward – having their date pay, having doors opened, being protected from slight or insult, and all the other social and legal niceties to which women are accustomed or entitled. (Note that you don't have to necessarily agree with all of these.)

Rejecting the notion of privilege is tantamount to rejecting the idea that society itself runs along gender lines.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this stuff doesn't bother me...maybe i'm pragmatic....the social constructs of gender (as opposed to gender IS only a social construct) dictate these privileges, and we all behave in relation to them..

I like being "treated as" a woman...i am a woman....its not a big deal...it was a much bigger deal to be treated as a man..

in women's circles I laugh too loud and I am sure I exert my own internal training that was fostered over 40+ years of being treated as a male...for better and worse...who cares..

and I don't sweat it when I my "maleness" pops up and causes an awkward moment or a question in somebody's eye...I AM different...its ok...

[DebbieL]

No. Someone put it nicely earlier in the thread
I never was a guy, I just pretended to be one.

That being said, there are times when I am in a business meeting or technical presentation and I have an observation or an objection - and I notice that the men just keep on talking when a woman tries to speak up. If they try to talk over a man, the man will just get louder and start yelling.

As a result, I am now more aware when they are doing to me so I am more aware of when they do it to others - so there are times when I will just say "Stop talking, the client has a question". It may sound rude, but it's a more common strategy for women - because they DON'T want to get into a shouting match.

I've also notice that during a meeting, women look each other in the eye - they can communicate volumes before they open their mouths.

When I was pretending to be a man, I often had difficulty getting the floor, because the other men in the room perceived me as a sissy or homosexual - it was usually when I would apply a LOT of expertise to addressing the most pressing issues - that the alpha males would finally realize they had to yield the floor or risk losing their support.

Not that I don't have to pretend, as a woman, I find that people are more willing to turn on the alpha male when he tries to play the dominance came. It's OK to dominate the omega male, but it's NOT OK to dominate and oppress the "nice lady".

Of course, I can also listen to what is going on, and often, address the most critical issues more effectively because it's no longer an issue of trying to play "top dog" - I can focus on making sure that I really understand what the issues are before they finally grant me my turn to speak. It wastes time at times, but nobody seems to mind. The women just roll their eyes and smile.

[Frances]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

Yeah, the assumptions about privilege from a lot of people is that there is male privilege and then none for everyone else. There is plenty of female privilege, cis gendered privilege, young and old folks privilege and so on. A lot of this discourse is based on the idea that one group suffers through life and the other does not. Tell that to the young man who is sent to war, or to the father who has to provide for others get discarded by society as a non entity for not doing so anymore. All groups have inconveniences and privileges. Asserting that your suffering is worse than someone else's is egocentric. So the menu is handed to someone else. Guess what? Your sentence for any crime will be 66% less intense than a man's.

[Badtranny]

Don't try to personalize 'male privilege'. Too many people are clueless to the concept and willfully ignorant to the practice.

In my old business as a construction manager women were always perceived as a step under a man. It's not like then men didn't have to work, or they were given anything extra, so the average dude was completely clueless that he was getting the job over an equally qualified woman merely because he's a man "and the crew doesn't respond well to women". If you want to pretend that this doesn't happen than feel free, but I'm here to tell you that I've seen it many times. Also, when a man gets a job assisting a PM, he is either a Jr PM, or a Project Engineer but when a woman has that job she is ALWAYS titled an Administrator. I have never encountered a male Project Administrator but have seen many 'Project Engineers' who couldn't hold the pencil of my female lead Admin.

Any man who thinks the glass ceiling doesn't really exist is simply fooling himself. Times are indeed changing, but a man will always be seen as the primary bread winner unless advertised otherwise. Men are automatically seen as more professional and women are more likely to be perceived as a support person. It is absolutely true that a guy can be very direct and rude and subordinates will perceive him as 'tough', or 'no nonsense'. Women are of course perceived as 'bitchy' or 'whiny'.

Do I personally miss male privilege? Hell yes. I had a great career and as the youngest Sr Manager in my company, I was also the only one who was not yet a VP, but it was certainly on the horizon. After transition, my department was basically dissolved.
I have yet to regain the traction that I once had in my career. Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm trans?

Who knows, but It was definitely nicer to be perceived as a straight white dude.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i was a vp in my company for many years....there were a bunch of us...over the years as my turn came up to sr vp, a woman was given the title...she was great but i had demonstrably more impact and made the company much more money... but we were criticized for not enough women on the board and in mgmt...so she became the senior vp and a big deal was made of it.... how ironic!!!!

also not sure what you mean by personalizing it...when a guy said i had a good business mind for a woman, that felt very personal.... i had power over him and i fired him...that felt very personal...
it was male privilege gone bad for him...he f'd with the wrong lady..... lol.... as a further aside, the businessman partner i was working with told me at first he didnt want to do our deal because i was a woman...

fyi prior to retiring i worked in and around wall street...women are second class citizens for sure...and the only women that get respect are the types that stay on the conference call for big deals while they are giving birth...

[Frances]

And in my profession, women rule every aspect. Men are considered intrinsically inadequate and cannot climb the ladder. Personal experiences don't prove anything. People and situations are complex. The concept of men are bad and have it easy, and women are good and have it hard is ridiculous. Everything should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Second class citizens don't have the privilege of not being drafted, rejecting partenhood, living on someone else's dime without judgement or not go to jail as long. Can't we just address injustices without making blanket judgements and adjustments?

[Marcelle]

Don't try to personalize 'male privilege'. Too many people are clueless to the concept and willfully ignorant to the practice.

I hope I am not misconstruing your comment Melissa and correct me if I am wrong. I think what Melissa meant was that if you make the concept of male privilege personal you loose sight of the fact it is a very real concept. Yes, I think we can all agree that not every male born on the earth just sits back and lets the "good times roll" reaching the dizzying heights of success without so much as lifting a finger. Indeed many work extremely hard to get where they are and if things don't work out they work harder. The same can be said for women, visible minorities and so on. However what cannot be denied is that on average women early 77 cents on the dollar to men, glass ceilings exist and men will always be seen (and yes it is changing . . . albeit slowly) as more credible.

I spent my life in the military and to some degree women can achieve as much as men. In the Canadian military women can gravitate to combat roles and some have been progressing steadily to command position albeit at a much slower rate then their male counterparts. I have heard comments such as "she's pretty strong, for a woman" or "not bad for a girl" when it comes to working in a combat role. Contrarily I have never heard "he's pretty strong, for a dude" or "not bad for a guy" in the same situations. So while strides are being made, as a guy I get immediate "street cred" based on the fact I am a dude even though there are women who are just as tactically sound as me (if not more). Does it negate my hard work? Nope, it is just something that is pervasive and some will latch on to it and do little to attain, while others will ride the wave and still work hard.

Interesting story. As some may know, I am out completely at work as gender fluid and spent the last week working as a woman. I was in a meeting as the resident subject matter expert (an all male cast) . . . it is the first time I was talked over. I mean literally dismissed as if I had nothing to add. Heck I was half expecting someone to ask me to go fetch coffee. It took me reverting to guy voice and mannerisms to get that put to rest but even then, it was a hard sell. A year ago, that would never have happened. It was very surreal.

Cheers

Isha

[flatlander_48]

Sorry, I have to laugh at some of this discussion. In a few cases, it almost seems like this is new information. That's funny. For me, the truth is this: I've been bumping up against male privilege for the better part of 66 years, only I know it better as White Male Privilege.

Folks, this is NOT a new social construct. It is something that society has not been successful in getting themselves out from under. Reason being is that there MUST be a benefit to someone.

And as I said earlier, women experience male privilege as sexism. Strictly speaking, that is what those here who are M2F are experiencing.

Yeah, the assumptions about privilege from a lot of people is that there is male privilege and then none for everyone else. There is plenty of female privilege, cis gendered privilege, young and old folks privilege and so on.

There is one significant difference that you don't account for. None of those groups are likely to go through a significant change of status. Even Young to Old, takes a considerable time. Conversely, when people transition, it occurs in a relatively short period of time, in the grand scheme of things. So, the contrast in going from having male privilege to not having it should be pretty distinct.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

I think what Melissa meant was that if you make the concept of male privilege personal you loose sight of the fact it is a very real concept.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying.

Interesting story. As some may know, I am out completely at work as gender fluid and spent the last week working as a woman. I was in a meeting as the resident subject matter expert (an all male cast) . . . it is the first time I was talked over. I mean literally dismissed as if I had nothing to add. Heck I was half expecting someone to ask me to go fetch coffee. It took me reverting to guy voice and mannerisms to get that put to rest but even then, it was a hard sell. A year ago, that would never have happened. It was very surreal.

...and that was exactly my experience as well. Minus the male voice thing. :-)

Gaining respect of alpha males as a man was much easier for sure. Luckily, since I was never an alpha myself I developed tactics that serve me well in my new boob suit. I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women. Trans men pretty much universally say that male privilege is real and they love it.

Cheers

Isha[/QUOTE]

[Rogina B]

Gaining respect of alpha males as a man was much easier for sure. Luckily, since I was never an alpha myself I developed tactics that serve me well in my new boob suit.

If the boobs are too big then they will NEVER pay attention to what comes out of your mouth..Sad,but too true.

[cheryl reeves]

male privalege had nothing to do with getting me my first trucking job,it was me working my arse off showing i could do it,i knew plenty of women who could outdrive many of their counterparts..i just had a way of speaking that could shut the mourh of any alpha male..just like with white privilege whats that for i seem to miss out on a lot..sigh

[becky77]

I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women.

There seems to be a lot of people arguing the case for male privilege, I don't really think anyone is saying it doesn't exist and its not very real?

It's still a man's world.

As an example:
I need to go and buy a round of drinks, I'm not comfortable with doing it, I go to the bar and patiently wait and it takes me ages as somehow other guys get served first. Eventually the female bartender notices me and I get served. (This happened so often to the point my wife would go, as she has a more forceful nature than me).
Next round is my brothers, he strides forward pushes his way in and very quickly he is served.

The difference is my brother is comfortable and confident in his male role and as such unknowingly expects to get served quickly and exerts his power. He wouldn't think twice that the lady on the left was waiting before he got there, me I would have pointed to her to be served first. My brother is a typical guy that without knowing fully takes advantage of male privilege. He can be almost arrogant at times and can't understand why he can't always get his way.

So when it comes to living as a woman, I'm still struggling to get served and I don't really notice much of a difference. But had my brother transitioned he wouldn't know what hit him, because he doesn't know any different.

Using one of Lea's examples:
I'm in a restaurant and I'm handed the wine list, I never noticed this as it wasn't important to me. I would go through it with my wife and agree what to pick, because I naturally see us on the same level I also wouldn't have noticed if the wine list was handed to her first.
So again, now I'm transitioned and the wine list is handed to someone else I don't even register it.
I don't know what half the wines are and I have no issue asking the waiter for a recommendation.
But I know guys that play up to choosing the wine like it's another way to prove their competence, they would possibly be aggrieved if the wine list was handed to a woman.

My argument wasn't that men have privilege, that's obvious.
It's that I didn't immerse myself in it enough for me to notice it gone.
Sure I notice what is now sexism, but that irritates me in a different way. I'm thinking you're an arse, not "oh no, my male privilege has gone".

[charlenesomeone]

Here is an article about male privilege by a male. Lots of great info in links in the article.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/...ale-privilege/

[Frances]

There is one significant difference that you don't account for. None of those groups are likely to go through a significant change of status. Even Young to Old, takes a considerable time. Conversely, when people transition, it occurs in a relatively short period of time, in the grand scheme of things. So, the contrast in going from having male privilege to not having it should be pretty distinct.

I don't know. We all have diferent circomstances in life. With the way I used to look and sound, privilege was not meted out to me that much. People did not give me anything; they did not even understand me. Transitioning allowed me to be seen and be listened to. It's almost like my way of expressing myself all of a sudden made sense. I went from very little privilege to a lot more. I am not trans-noticed, so I experience cis-gendered female privilege, which is something that a lot of transgendered women will not experience. Like I said somewhere else on this forum, I did not change gender, I changed sex.

It's not a question of "all the privilege and then none." If being handed the menu means a lot to you (the general you), then think long and hard about transition.

[LeaP]

I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women. Trans men pretty much universally say that male privilege is real and they love it.

That is the most interesting comment in the conversation. Perhaps we don't miss what we take for granted. I bet the behaviors are ingrained enough that most still act on them anyway ... protestations of from-cradle femininity notwithstanding.