Is Katlin More

[arbon]

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If anyone here finds this offensive or feels that I am being a fashion police or that I am somehow against the community, then sorry but I don't know what else to say. . Honestly, I'm getting the impression that many of you are putting Caitlyn on a pedestal to the point where you want to be in denial about how she is being received by average people.

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I don't find anything you write offensive. I appreciate your comments and point of view.

I was with a older male friend in Portland this last weekend and he brought up how Caitlyn is dressing and some of the things she has said. He had a very negative view. Which is the same type of reaction you are saying many people have.

It is frustrating and sad to me, not for what she is doing, but how people react and judge her. I am defensive of her. I almost wish she would be more offensive and shove it more into people's faces. I get tired and angry of the way people view and judge us.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

from my standpoint reine what my responses are about is this

transsexuality at its core is about (imo) living out your authentic self... for some of us that transition, nothing less will do... others trade that for other things but most of us find over time is that you CANT trade...
Caitlyn didn't stop fighting until her 60s

I personally get the feeling that we are seeing the authentic Caitlyn warts and all... her age, her celebrity, her physicality, her money, her goofiness and her charm.... its all there..

i have cringed at some of the pics too but and if that means some people will judge her poorly, so be it,,, we can not and should not change her (of course i'm speaking rhetorically...she aint gonna change because of us!!)

[ReineD]

=
It is frustrating and sad to me, not for what she is doing, but how people react and judge her.

It's frustrating to me too. But, I'm hoping that she will be able to cut through the bias and her message will be received.


... and I think that if she tones it down a little (and I saw last night on the show that she is beginning to do this), it will help her to achieve her goals. What else can I say.

[Dianne S]

Dianne S, maybe you skimmed by some of what I posted, but it is not just my son (a person who does not discriminate against TSs) who thought the pic on fb captured Caitlyn's reality. Tons of other people do too, which proves that Caitlyn's message is NOT getting across to the muggles.

Oh, quite possibly.

But Caitlyn dresses, presents and acts to please Caitlyn, not to impress the muggles. And while it might be fun to critique her --- heck, it's fun to critique a lot of Hollywood women's fashion choices --- I don't think she has a particular duty to care about our opinions any more than any other woman does.

Could it be that you (and others) believe that because she's a celebrity, she has a responsibility to present transgender women well to the wider public? I don't think she has that responsibility. I'm content to let her live her life however she likes.

[ReineD]

Could it be that you (and others) believe that because she's a celebrity, she has a responsibility to present transgender women well to the wider public? I don't think she has that responsibility. I'm content to let her live her life however she likes.

It's not my belief that she has a responsibility to do anything. SHE believes that she has such a responsibility (she has said this repeatedly), I respect that, and I hope that she is successful. She wants to educate the public. I am saying that people dismiss what she says (her message is not getting across) because of the glam and the association with the K-clan. She apparently is aware of the glam-issue (according to the show I saw just last night), because she told her assistant to choose a "not too femmy" outfit for her first meeting with her mother. Also later on in the show, she purposely dressed in a plain black top up to her neck and black pants to lend support to the family of a young TS. I was happy to see this, because the way that she dressed lent credibility to what she was saying and doing.

GGs know that if they run for office, interview for jobs, are spokespersons at fundraising events for social issues, are in positions of authority at work, etc, in short anytime they want people to NOT look upon them as sexual objects, they will dress accordingly. Why should Caitlyn be any different. Surely her aim is not to be seen as a sexual object? If it is, then she should continue with the outfits she came out in and all power to her. But, I am taking it that this is not her primary goal. I'm actually defending her stated purpose!

Why is this so hard to understand.

[Dianne S]

Why is this so hard to understand.

Because I still think it's a double standard. Let's pick a powerful Hollywood person: Meryl Streep. She's an ardent feminist and not someone anyone would dismiss as shallow or lightweight, and yet is quite at ease with dressing sexily and glamourously for an awards ceremony.

Or how about Jodie Foster? Certainly a strong and opinionated woman, but also unafraid to dress sexily when the lights are on her.

Caitlyn Jenner, for better or for worse. is a Hollywood celebrity. And she's acting like one. Let's cut her some slack.

[Eryn]

Doesn't anyone remember the beginning of the first episode of I am Cait? She appeared without makeup at 3:00 AM. She herself expressed her anxiety at her inadequacy to represent the entire community. We should give her credit for her honesty on this.

I wonder what the reaction here would have been if she had decided to dress in frumpy mode all the time? Some would still say that she was a poor representative for our community because of that!

Does anyone remember Kristen Beck's documentary Lady Valor? She was filmed walking around a shooting range in heels while conducting a tactics class, hardly appropriate attire for the situation. Nobody said a word about it. It was Kristen expressing herself as she wished, something that every one of us wishes to do. Isn't Caitlyn deserving of the same respect?

As far as making statements about the difficulties of dealing with feminine issues, isn't this an honest expression of what every one of us has felt? Everything is difficult at first for us because we have to learn in weeks what GGs learn in decades. I used to take hours to get ready for an evening outing. Now I can be out the door on 20 minute's notice. Caitlyn will learn and mature just as we all did.

Most of Jenner's on-camera fashion choices are obviously made by her personal and production staff. That's pretty much how it is for people at that level of society. She hires experts and trusts their advice. So far it has worked pretty well for her. As Caitlyn learns more about the female experience I have no doubt that she will exert more personal control over her appearance.

If Jenner's program is going to do the community any good people have to watch it. Few are going to tune in to a program with a TS person sitting on a couch in sweats talking only about the downsides of her life. To draw an audience a show has to draw interest, which means giving viewers an interesting story and sufficient eye candy to keep them coming back. If Caitlyn can do this while also presenting a relatively positive image for the TG community it is beneficial for all of us, whether transitioning or closeted.

I hope that her show is successful and makes her a boatload of money. She has gone from hiding in the closet to having a job that a million girls would kill for.

[ReineD]

OK, I'll give up trying to make you and others here understand. lol

... well, except for one last word but after that I'll be silent.

Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not battling misconceptions about their image or the social issues they undertake to educate the public. Whereas Caitlyn is. There is an existing bias that MtFs transition either for fetish or because they are gay and they are attracted to men. Caitlyn needs to be aware of these misconceptions if she wants people to dispel them. She will not easily dispel them if she dresses, from the outset, in a manner that reinforces the stereotypical image that prejudiced people have about TSs and CDs.

Once Caitlyn is established in her self-appointed role as spokesperson, once the public has seen Caitlyn in a variety of roles dressed in ways that do not always show off her boobs, legs, etc, and once all the nonsense about her presentation and her association with reality shows and the K-clan are done with, then she will indeed be on the same playing field as the GGs you've mentioned, who have been seen by the public for years in their various roles. Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not always seen in slinky dresses or on magazine covers in bustiers, especially when they are engaging in their activism.


<Edit> Eryn, the conversation about Caitlyn's presentation began long before the latest show where I and the rest of the public saw her tell her assistant to choose a sensible outfit for her first meeting with her mother, and before we saw her in black pants and top at the end of the show. Weeks ago I said that I hoped Caitlyn would tone down her presentation and the disagreements in this thread are based on my statements, before the "I am Cait" show came out.

Also, not showing off boobs, legs, etc does not need to mean that the manner of dress has to be frumpy? If so, then are all the GGs in your life and mine "frumpy"?

[flatlander_48]

You know, we can't always pick our s/heros. They tend to just show up, unannounced and often unheralded. But the thing is, would we dare to talk about Superman's choice of wardrobe?

"Dude, what's up with the tights and cape? Looks kinda swishy, if you ask me...".


Would we dare to comment on the Green Lantern's color coordination skills?

"Dude, that green looks like pureed kale. Uggggghhhh..."


Or Wonder Woman's chice of uniform?

"Girl, does it JUST have to be cut down to There and up to Here?"


Silly, isn't it? This haste to judge a book by it cover is absurd. PARTICULARLY since many want to judge that book by the other ones that also happen to be adjacent to it on the shelf. Read the book for yourselves people; THEN decide. If we can't get beyond the visuals, what hope do the regular folk have?

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

I was trying to think of a good example of older women who are daily in the public eye. The cast of The View comes to mind. I did a search for images of them and this is one of many similar images:

the-view.jpg

Ok, let's analyze the ladies who fall into the CJ's age range using the same pickiness shown for CJ.

Whoopi, nearing 60, is pretty casual. Whoopi marches to nobody's drum so frumpy suits her.

Joy Behar is showing a pretty low neckline and high hemline for a person in her '60s. And look at those heels, who is she trying to impress?

Barbara Walters, well into her 80s, with a plunging keyhole neckline? Looking for a new mate is she? I can't see much of her shoes, but those pointy toes probably precede some spiky heels.

So, two out of three of the older ladies are wearing clothing that some here would consider inappropriate. Yet for some reason they are not judged. Perhaps that is because they look fine if the observer isn't trying to find something to nit-pick. The fact is, they are fine and well within the norms for women on television.

People here are judging CJ on a very few data points. One interview (where she was still Bruce), one photo shoot in Vanity Fair, one television appearance as herself, and a few random shots from paparazzi that are far from flattering. Hardly a fair representation.

Yes, I want CJ to present a more representative view of the TG community, but she'll need far more than one show to do that. She has to maintain her audience. Give her a chance and, if past performance is any indication, she will do all of us proud.

[Dianne S]

Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not battling misconceptions about their image or the social issues they undertake to educate the public. Whereas Caitlyn is.

Even if that's true, so what? I don't think she should worry about modifying her behavior to avoid misconceptions by prejudiced people.

I was out for dinner with three other transwomen the other night. They were all saying how they tried to avoid overtly feminine clothes at work to "fit in" with other women who tended to wear pants and tops. But I pretty much always wear a dress or a skirt at work, even though that's not the norm. I do that because I like those types of clothes, they're very comfortable in hot weather, and I'll be damned if I went through transition to live an authentic life only to be forced to censor my choice of clothes.

Reine, I actually do understand your point. But I think that given Caitlyn's position as a Hollywood celebrity, associated with a rather notorious family, she's not a bad representative of trans people at all.

[ReineD]

Diane, you can wear dresses and skirts. And so can I, and Caitlyn, and any female-identified person there is, no matter their birth sex. Even CDers can wear skirts! There's just a difference between the types of dresses and skirts that people can choose from, for example a skirt you'd wear to the office party vs a skirt you'd wear on a hot date when you really want to impress the guy you're with.

And Eryn, if Caitlyn had come out on the Vanity Fair cover wearing any of the outfits in the picture you posted and striking any of the poses like any of the ladies in that picture, I would not have suggested that she tone it down a little.

Reine, I actually do understand your point. But I think that given Caitlyn's position as a Hollywood celebrity, associated with a rather notorious family, she's not a bad representative of trans people at all.

I think it may be best at this point to just adopt a wait and see attitude with Caitlyn, and see how she does in her personal life and how she progresses on her show. I like her a lot, I love that she wants to let the world know how difficult it is for TSs, and I sincerely hope that she reaches all her goals. I also hope that the people in the day-to-day world who do not "get" Caitlyn will change their attitudes about her and begin to take her for her authentic self, as time wears on ... since these are precisely the people that CJ wants to reach. She is out there sharing her knowledge with the people who do judge TSs negatively. CJ doesn't need to educate the people who would hire TSs, rent them apartments, or the parents who already support their TS kids.

[Eryn]

...And Eryn, if Caitlyn had come out on the Vanity Fair cover wearing any of the outfits in the picture you posted and striking any of the poses like any of the ladies in that picture, I would not have suggested that she tone it down a little. ...

Umm. It's Vanity Fair! 90 percent of their covers are racy, and the other 10% depict males! It's what they do!

[flatlander_48]

I guess transwomen are not allowed to have vanity...

DeeAnn

[Marcelle]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore as I really feel this horse has been beat to death, brought back from the dead and now the zombie horse is being beat to death yet again . . . seriously just agree to disagree and let this go. However, this comment made me laugh so loud I scared my dogs out of their slumber . . .

You know, we can't always pick our s/heros. They tend to just show up, unannounced and often unheralded. But the thing is, would we dare to talk about Superman's choice of wardrobe?

"Dude, what's up with the tights and cape? Looks kinda swishy, if you ask me...".

Cheers

Isha

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Caitlyn cannot win..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...t-trailer.html

She simply must continue to be herself..
As a transsexual I know more than anyone the power of just finally being myself...

this is not meant to be a political statement..just an example of how she is going to get attacked and attacked, over and over..

perhaps that's what people want? for her to be somebody else so she can support THEM and their ISSUEs, instead of being herself, making a living, living her life and doing her best to support others.

[Tina_gm]

Here are some of my thoughts- Caitlyn may be doing the trans community a service in bringing it to the spotlight, but at the same time, is as far from reality as ever. 1st, there really is no such thing as a "reality" show. It is a show, just like any other and it is all just the clever appearance of reality, but there really is none.

Caitlyn went from an undercover CDer to a hollywood Diva in .05 seconds. Now, most women, or transwomen would LOVE to live her life. Only .00001% of any women or transwomen do. Getting photographed by the worlds leading photographers. Wearing dresses and other clothing by the worlds leading clothing designers... and world leading price tags which I would bet a paycheck on that she does not have to pay. (she might even get paid to wear them) Really, how hard is it for her to find something to wear?? A lot harder when you do not have unlimited resources from the worlds leading designers offering their products up to you without cost. And all of the people who are the best of the best making Caitlyn look her best.

I am not really blaming Caitlyn for taking advantage of all of this. I think most of us would, as would most GG's if they were offered this as well. I agree with any others that there is some issues going on with what the rest of the TG world has to endure that Caitlyn does not. The price tag of Caitlyn's public transition of becoming a hollywood diva is not that of the vast majority of those who are TG of whatever sort. And, sadly, I think it may be creating a bigger rift between TS and CD then there should be. There should not be a rift at all IMO.

Unfortunately, we are seeing a transition to a hollywood Diva far more than we are to becoming a woman that the general population can identify with or as.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

so how can a person transition into a plain old woman in front of 300++ million and hold their attention?...

i'll answer that, she cant.

[Tina_gm]

Maybe the point should not be how hard it is for Caitlyn to hold their attention, but just to show that it can be done, and is being done. There doesn't need to be a reality show, or awards show, or whatever show. If Caitlyn wants to go on a speaking tour about transition and what it is like and the things she has to endure, the the good and the bad, great. TBH, I am starting to get Caitlyn'd out by all of the over exposure and the sensationalism. Cailtyn is not living in any way the normal life of a woman or transwoman.

[flatlander_48]

Cailtyn is not living in any way the normal life of a woman or transwoman.

Given her celebrity for the last roughly 40 years, how could it be any different?

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Caitlyn cannot win..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...t-trailer.html

This is not specific to CJ.

Any public personality, right or left wing, trans, male, or female who makes his/her political views public will be criticized by people who reside in the opposite political camp. A lot of people disagreed with Jane Fonda's stance on the Viet Nam war. And people criticize politicians all the time!

We even prohibit political comments in the forum because they incite flame wars.