Is Katlin More

[deebra]

Is Katlin Jenner more accepted than your average CD ? I think yes, of course she's had the money to have had the very best surgeons, tailored clothes, makeup artist and advice on being a woman and yes her celebrity. For a comparison, if Katlin was to appear and speak at a mall she would draw a crowd and be well accepted, but if a week before a CD was walking through that same mall she would receive some negative looks and maybe negative comments. Let's hope Katlin is making CDing more accepted. Is society changing???

[Belle Cri]

I doubt it, but media acceptance appears to be, and the way things are going, it is tantamount to the same. Still, the nasty stares will still be there. That was a resounding maybe lol.

[Lynn Marie]

Caitlin Jenner has the money, fame, and the courage to do this right. She's raising the bar for all of us.

[Princess Chantal]

I just don't see Caitlyn as a crossdresser as she doesn't label and describe herself as one.

[Samantha2015]

It seems Caitlyn wants to live as a woman 24/7 365 so she's not just a CD.
I think she's more TG/TS. She's already had surgery's to be more femme.
I don't think many CDs will go that far. I know I will not.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Deebra,
Like it or not Caitlyn is out. How she goes about exposing herself, her thoughts, and her feelings on the show is left to the producers.
Hopefully Cait has a hand (voice) in what is going on.
I'm sure she has been here ( CD.com ) reading (lurking) ( wouldn't you?)
If you had her on a one on one conversation, would you ask her if she ever considered herself a crossdresser?
Doubt it, but asking a stranger if they were TG seems so much more acceptable.
I hope her show gains some speed, but realize, we all know, and have known, what she's talking about.
With each word she utters, the media follows, with every quote they print, TG people are brought to life.
IMO. Anyone that chooses to wear the clothes designed to be worn by the opposite gender is a CDer.
With that being said, those same people have to some degree of GID.
I'm again sure that Cait realizes that the TG community reaches beyond the TS world, and every aspect of it needs to be adressed

So where do we "CDers" fit into Cait's show?
I only hope that Cait , or her producers are here, reading, getting a feel for how
the show, and the ENTIRE TG community is beijng portrayed.
Regardless, life goes on. Caitlyn doesn't know me, I don't know her.
My alarm clock will still go off at 6am!
Much Love
Kristyn

[I Am Paula]

Caitlyn does not wear Versace, and spend six hours in makeup to go to the mall. Or does she?
Despite some flack from the trans groups that she bought her beauty, and is not a realistic role model for transwomen, she is good for the community. Most cis celebrities are not good role models to the cis community.
One cannot compare her acceptance with that of the rest of us. Also, Caitlyn is not a cross dresser. She is a woman thru, and thru.

[flatlander_48]

Let's hope Katlin is making CDing more accepted.

I think there are benefits for crossdressers, but it's indirect. By having a transsexual in the news, one that we knew in her former life and now through her transition, it exposes people to ways of being beyond heterosexuals, lesbian, gays and bisexuals.

Despite some flack from the trans groups that she bought her beauty, and is not a realistic role model for transwomen, she is good for the community.

There is this question:

How many women of means would decide against plastic surgery and say "No thanks, I'd rather stay ugly."?

DeeAnn

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I can see this thread going bad (much like the last one) so I thought I would get my two cents in before it gets locked

To the OP, is Caitlyn good for CDers? Well, I have to agree with Lorileah on this one . . . the average person does not know CD from TS unless they are initiated in the community (know someone of our ilk). Indeed, I have had several people ask me at work "So you are like Caitlyn Jenner?" To which I reply "No, she is transsexual which means she is transitioning to become a woman. I am gender fluid which means some days I identify as a woman and some days as a man" Confusion and Jeopardy screen saver face "Oh so you are like a cross dresser?" To which I reply "In a sense yes but that can be anyone who wishes to dress up in women's clothing to someone like me who goes complete with make-up and a wig" The difference is when I identify as a woman, I see myself as a woman whereas some cross dressers will always maintain they are a man". A bit less confused look and then some understanding.

My point as some may be wondering . . . is that Caitlyn is getting people to talk and when they meet one of us in the Vanilla world (CDer, TG, TS or whomever) they may engage and it is up to us to educate. So the knock on effect of Caitlyn's very public transition is that it can be a starting platform for dialogue if you are out to the world as a CDer or you just wish to engage in conversation with friends about TG issues and remain private . . . it is what you do with the information that makes the difference.

Hell-o Deebra,
Caitlyn is a celebrity, before and after transition. You've heard the saying " you can take the girl out of Texas (wherever)
Caitlyn is in the spotlight for a reason. It may seem that she is out to make some cash from coming out, but never less. She's out!

Hi Kristyn,

Love this quote. It is true Caitlyn is a celebrity and once in the spotlight . . . let's face it . . . some people irrespective of gender or intentions cannot give it up, indeed it must be intoxicating to be the focus of so much attention. However, it does not negate her plight. Remember folks, she didn't go through all this to make some bucks, I mean seriously who would? She had/has real "gender dysphoria" and I am sure any here who have suffered from even the mildest form of this can attest . . . not fun. Caitlyn came out in a flamboyant way, that can't be denied but she came out because she had to. Could it have been a more low key? Certainly, but that is not what celebrities do. Again though, that does not all of a sudden reduce her intentions to non-existent because she is using the limelight. To be honest nobody here truly knows what her intentions are and she could very well be using her celeb status as a launching pad for future advocacy work once all the hype settles down.

I get the sense that Caitlyn is conflicted herself. On the one side she has to deal with the practical realities of supporting herself and is using the only means she's known for years: her celebrity. To maintain public interest she feels she has to play the glam card because that's what sells.

Bingo! We all have our coping mechanisms in dealing with this thing regardless of where we fall on the spectrum. It will most likely be something comfortable and give us a sense of worth. Let's face it how many people post pictures of themselves here looking for positive feedback (guilty as charged). Why do we do it? Acceptance, confidence or just a feel good moment when someone says "You look good". Yes, Caitlyn's may be a bit over the top but if it is helping her through things . . . why rain on that parade.

That's my point too. She doesn't give me the impression she is in touch with the average person, especially young TSs who are likely at the poverty line due to an inability to get jobs and the high cost of transition. Less flamboyance and preoccupation with looks and what to wear, and fewer comments on "what us girls need to go through to look beautiful" would be a good thing.

Hi Reine,

I agree to some extent. But then again, how many celeb role models come from less than humble backgrounds who stand-up for the plight of the disenfranchised and poverty stricken. They are not in touch with what it means to be poor or have to work and yet they still use their fame and wealth to do good and a lot of it is done with a backdrop of media frenzy.

Why is it that I have more support and respect for a story about the turmoil that a child goes through growing up transgender as presented on "Frontline' and PBS than I do about a 65 year old on "Entertainment Tonight' who's worried about what she is going to wear at a Culture Club concert.

Hi Ilsa,

I agree again to some extent. Unfortunately, Hollywood pizzazz is what sells ratings and not news. Now, it is likely that Caitlyn will fast become a bi-line in the entertainment world (indeed check out the tabloids and you will see very little about her) but her explosion upon the world is what has brought people's head out the sand when it comes to being TG which in turn has made being TG newsworthy and potentially acted as the impetus to get these stories out to the world. But to be honest . . . all this media attention irrespective of Hollywood glam or real life plight will lead a Mayfly existence until the next big thing comes along. It is up to us (CDer, TS, TG or whomever) to keep that alive in the minds of those who have seen it and not just the intentions of one or two celebs.

Cheers

Isha

[ReineD]

Hi Reine,

I agree to some extent. But then again, how many celeb role models come from less than humble backgrounds who stand-up for the plight of the disenfranchised and poverty stricken. They are not in touch with what it means to be poor or have to work and yet they still use their fame and wealth to do good and a lot of it is done with a backdrop of media frenzy.

I'm also concerned about the general populace, the people that we're wanting will accept the idea that some individuals are genuinely born in the wrong bodies and they need compassion and support. If Caitlyn persists in presenting herself as a Hollywood diva, I'm concerned that people in general will continue to tell themselves that Caitlyn, specifically, is doing this all for show and money and it's not "for real". There's a disconnect between the reality that Caitlyn is portraying and most TS' lives that I think will make it difficult for the people who do discriminate against TSs, to listen to Caitlyn's message and translate this to "yes, I will give this TS a job" or "yes, I will sign a lease with this TS".

My concerns may be unfounded, but I'm basing them on the conversations I've had with the people I know about Caitlyn, most of whom are taking it all as one big publicity stunt for money. I do think a change in image would do much to dispel these negative attitudes.

That said, I think that the people (wives, children, siblings, parents, etc) of TGs will be able to look past Caitlyn's presentation and pay attention to her words and sentiments. But, these family members have a head's up on the general populace because they are already personally involved with a TG and they can already relate a bit with the difficulties that these TGs experience.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What would you have her do?

be specific

give away her money?
wear grungy clothes? pretend she is 18 and somehow relate to the current generation as if she is one of them
talk about cds when she is not a cd?
hide in the closet? not transition? have srs and broadcast it?

what would you have her say? she has said a lot of wonderful things..

would you begrudge her livelihood as a tv personality and motivational speaker??
who would you have her be other than herself??

[Princess Chantal]

Oh great here we go again.....
Why does the Caitlyn threads always lead to the putting down of crossdressers just cause of a few that don't put her on a pedestal for her "efforts"?

[Badtranny]

Here we have a group of people who have done NOTHING to advance acceptance of CD's or anybody TG related, critiquing somebody who is literally putting it all out there. It's entertaining to read and I guess this is the right place for it, but please understand that closeted people have zero influence or credibility in the community.

I realize that a good number of the CD's who frequent the board probably spend a good deal of time with regular dudes (dudes who don't have a girl's name on the weekends) in spirited conversations about sports, and those damn queers. I'm sure that your blistering critique of Ms Jenner is appreciated in those circles, but around here she is considered a Trans Woman and the trans women who hang out here tend to respect people who damn the torpedoes for the cold comfort of authenticity.

What you say about Caitlyn you could say about any of us, and what you say about the least of my people you say about me. To paraphrase an ancient Jewish dude.

[PaulaQ]

Crossdressers will gain more acceptance when they come out, live openly, and talk about who they are. Caitlyn is doing a great service to the trans community, particularly those who transition. But for CDs, since everyone on TV is tripping all over themselves to distinguish trans women from CDs, I don't think this will have so much impact unless more of you are visible.

[ReineD]

Caitlyn is accepted by the media because she is TS (or as they prefer to call it, TG). If she were a he and a CDer in the sense that she wanted to retain male gender identity and switch back and forth (appearing as a woman in public occasionally but as Bruce the rest of the time), I think the media would not know what to do with that. Honestly I think a lot of people would say WTF. Caitlyn knows this and this is why she did not appear as Caitlyn until her full-time transition.

IMO it's easier for people to understand someone who was born in the wrong body and who is correcting this. This person is still part of the gender-binary that the world understands. It's not so easy to understand a person who identifies male but who enjoys presenting as a female outside of the stage (people do understand Drag Queens who dress for show or gay men who dress as women).

[pamela7]

Crossdressers will gain more acceptance when they come out, live openly, and talk about who they are. Caitlyn is doing a great service to the trans community, particularly those who transition. But for CDs, since everyone on TV is tripping all over themselves to distinguish trans women from CDs, I don't think this will have so much impact unless more of you are visible.

as ever Paula is really clear and on the money here. While hiding is an integral part of CD for many, it's only needed cos so many hide!!!!

[Lorileah]

OK, I guess we agree. Good for the TS's, not good for the CD's, good role model except she is probably too rich and too public, so she doesn't represent the people here who don't have fame or money.

Mainstream people see her as an act because she is connected to an act, so no matter what she ever does, or has done in the past, is now moot because after all she can't be sincere. But she seems sincere and she seems like she cares, maybe, sorta, kinda but younger people can't connect because she is old and wisdom isn't what we need, we need 100% acceptance right now but then again we don't really want to work for it. That feels close.

Someday I hope that both camps actually join hands and walk together in a united front, you know one big camping trip...kumbya and marshmallows. I also believe in

[emma5410]

If we are all holding hands we will not be able to walk very far unless the closet has wheels.

[flatlander_48]

My concerns may be unfounded, but I'm basing them on the conversations I've had with the people I know about Caitlyn, most of whom are taking it all as one big publicity stunt for money. I do think a change in image would do much to dispel these negative attitudes.

So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.

OK, I guess we agree. Good for the TS's, not good for the CD's, good role model except she is probably too rich and too public, so she doesn't represent the people here who don't have fame or money.

You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.

You're correct, it makes no sense ... to us. But the thing is, the average person isn't bothered to learn as deeply about it as we all are. They're not impacted by any of this! They have this iffy, sketchy idea of what "TG" might or might not mean (most people think it means gay men who want to become women ... except maybe those flashy people in Hollywood who do it for money and/or fame). When they read about parents who support their young TS kids by providing them with hormone blockers, many of them think the parents are off their rockers. They really have no clue.

I've been asking various people I know what they think about Caitlyn, just to get my finger on the pulse of what people in the general population think, who are not associated in any way with members of this community like we are. It stands to reason that we know better, as do the people in our lives ... but even then, I bet there are people here who have acquaintances that think they're off their rockers too, if they know.

Because she has been so much in the news, using Caitlyn's story as a springboard for discussion has been an eye opener for me.

What would you have her do?

Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.

She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.

[Lorileah]

I wish she would learn of this site and join. I'd love to hear her answers.

You don't know she isn't. For all you know she's eating ice cream out of the box in her cotton night gown reading this

You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?

That's the point. NO ONE fits the model. Soccer mom clothes...glam clothes...jeans and a T-shirt, there is always someone here who will say it isn't what we should wear. It doesn't fit the mold. Women are mad because she made a joke about how hard it is to choose an outfit (I suspect that anyone on an awards show really has that issue, they just don't say it). The TSs are are mad because she has money and spends it on things like plastic surgery. The CDs are mad because she is a TS. CBS is mad because she's on E network. Russia is mad because they didn't get the gold medal in 1976. What do people want?

Whatever it is, evidently Caitlyn doesn't have it. Funny thing is that people ARE talking about her. I have been here many years and that was an underlying subject the whole time. How do I tell my wife, my kids, my mother, my boss, my dog. Now you have a point of reference. You have an opening and people here want her to disappear. is she good for the community? I don't know yet. Let's see in a year. But, in the meantime, it has been something that people can talk to ME about so I can get MY message out too. So I can prove that I am a good person and not someone to be feared or avoided.

Other than never being a Drag Queen, I have lived the spectrum here. Most of us have. Sexual fetish, in the closet, going out at night, driving partially dressed or fully dressed in the dark, hiding clothes, buying clothes and throwing them away, going out in public and being scared out of my mind, going out in public and finding out the world didn't end, dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends, being who I am. It isn't a mountain with a peak, it is a railroad with twists and turns and stations that you can get off at or keep going on. If anyone here thinks for a moment they are better, higher, more evolved as a TG, just remember, pedestals are high and lonely and when you fall off, the higher you think you are the more pieces you will shatter into.

Is she good? Is she not? Who knows, she IS.

Last note: quit the sniping at each other. You can make your point without throwing sand at others in this box. Play nice.

[Katey888]

Most of this has been said before but it's worthy of emphasis...

1) Caitlyn is not just a CD - and what is 'your average CD' anyway...?
2) While TS folk (like Caitlyn) and CDers may be related, we are not the same - does it help CDing? Perhaps - I don't suppose it will do the entire CD/TG community any damage by raising awareness
3) Caitlyn would have drawn something of a crowd at a mall probably while she was still Bruce because of who she was and the family she's in - she's already a celeb.

Just one thing strikes me as odd through all this - given that the USA in general places great store in the pursuit of wealth and the measure of an individual is very often attenuated to their personal net worth, how come so many people are quick to focus on both her expenditure on herself and her ability to earn more through her celebrity status as being negative aspects..?? The trans politics of envy, perhaps...

Katey x

[PaulaQ]

IMO it's easier for people to understand someone who was born in the wrong body and who is correcting this. This person is still part of the gender-binary that the world understands.

I agree, although I would point out that not all trans people who undergo gender transition correspond well to the gender binary / cisgender norms. But yes, it is much easier to understand someone like Caitlyn who's just a woman, end of story.

It's not so easy to understand a person who identifies male but who enjoys presenting as a female outside of the stage (people do understand Drag Queens who dress for show or gay men who dress as women).

I agree here too, gender fluid people are very hard for most of us to understand. I disagree that people understand drag queens. Some number of drag queens transition. I know several, locally who have. (I know, here I go again saying scary sounding things!)

I really don't think the average person, straight or gay, understands why DQs feel the need to do what they do. They just know that "oh, ok, drag queens are a thing" because they have become extremely visible. I think a lot of straight people think a gay man would dress as a woman to try to sleep with men, which would of course be sort of silly and counterproductive.

[Tracii G]

Who knows what will happen so I'm not going to change anything I do.
Get out and interact with the vanillas and do my thing.

[Belle Cri]

I agree, although I would point out that not all trans people who undergo gender transition correspond well to the gender binary / cisgender norms. But yes, it is much easier to understand someone like Caitlyn who's just a woman, end of story.



I agree here too, gender fluid people are very hard for most of us to understand. I disagree that people understand drag queens. Some number of drag queens transition. I know several, locally who have. (I know, here I go again saying scary sounding things!)

I really don't think the average person, straight or gay, understands why DQs feel the need to do what they do. They just know that "oh, ok, drag queens are a thing" because they have become extremely visible. I think a lot of straight people think a gay man would dress as a woman to try to sleep with men, which would of course be sort of silly and counterproductive.

I am really coming to greatly respect your observations. As to Jenner, well - look she has always been a media presence in one way or another, has hooked up with those people, and so the result really is not that surprising. Regrettable, but she does serve a good cause. Sounds a bit nasty sit back and say, oh well, you're an idiot, but you are helping so go for it.

I could not have done that. I take enormous risks as it is, but not that, so I must subsume my cowardice into admiration for the media glare that she endures, even while she courts it.