Anachronism

[Belle Cri]

Do you ever feel an odd temporal tug, not only as if you were somehow mis or cisgendered (oh I am getting better at vocabulary, I think), but mistimed?

Think on it for a second. Several hundred years ago, we would have all been the power elite with our wigs, makeup, stockings, heels, and elaborate or subdued costume, and perfectly, consciously male to boot. Not an ounce of conflict.

Does this observation inform or obfuscate? I'm curious as to your opinions.

With best regards always,

Belle

[kimdl93]

The historical reference doesn't do much for me. As for feeling a bit out of time, literally as well as figuratively, I certainly recognize that someone like me enjoys possibilities I never allowed myself to imagine in my youth.

[pamela7]

"Miss Time'd" - now that's an interesting CD term for Clotho and her sisters? Do the fates speak?

[Jenniferathome]

Apples and Oranges. That WAS the fashion then so of course there would not be an ounce of conflict. And moreover, we would not be cross dressers dressed like that.

[Belle Cri]

"Miss Time'd" - now that's an interesting CD term for Clotho and her sisters? Do the fates speak?

Clearly...

Really this was a fanciful post to probe your ideas on relative societal..probity. Merely a perspective, so leave it if there is of no present value.

[Jaylyn]

Needless to say time marches on. Just think that in a couple hundred years from now everything may go full circle again. I taught a course in Wildlife and one has to remember the males in most of the species of wildlife are the brightly painted ones that strut their stuff to attract a female to breed with. I know humans are supposed to have dominion over the beast but maybe nature was right all along and two hundred years ago they were very close to nature. Something to think about. Your observation informs and made me think.

[Belle Cri]

As does yours - one I have considered also spending so much of my life in the woods/bush/country, whatever you care to call it, erm, or her, really. I think about that part quite often.

[sometimes_miss]

the males in most of the species of wildlife are the brightly painted ones that strut their stuff to attract a female to breed with.

Just because we aren't wearing bright colors doesn't mean that we're not wearing attire that will attract female mates. Women are keenly aware of what men wear; they can spot a $2000 suit from a $150 one a mile away, same with shirts, shoes, watches, and grooming. What we wear is often indicative of our affluence, and how we behave, usually, our status. And women can tell that without even talking to us. Appearance matters quite a bit in humans. And just because most men can't tell the difference in our attire, doesn't mean women can't.

[Persephone]

I have, on occasion, felt that temporal tug. I believe I would have enjoyed being a Southern Belle in the days before "The Late Unpleasantness" (the "Civil War" for U.S. northerners, although my Southern teachers often said "There was nothing civil about it."}. But then again, I've never been required to spend every day tightly laced into a corset while simpering over a man, so who knows if I'd really love the life I imagine.

And I do have a couple of "memories" that seem to be glimpses of past lives. Maybe rather than temporal transfer I really have been here before, and have been a woman in some of those lives?

But perhaps I'm influenced by geography -- I did spend portions of my childhood in Stamford, Connecticut. Maybe such thoughts are something in the water supply?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Belle Cri]

Ha, then you know about the water here - I suspect much can be explained right there (it's awful isn't it? lol, otherwise love the place).

As to The Great Hostilities, as my Alabama ancestors called, and still call it (or more properly, the term was used as a less controversial reference to the War around Yankees, or really anyone perceived to be a Northerner, or at least that's what I was taught) I have some family photos that would scare the living hell out of you LOL.

[mechamoose]

"OMG, that dress is SO last season."

As a person who used to do SCA (I was even a Martial) I get the draw towards old styles. But getting hissed at and dissed wouldn't have been any better back then.

As to The Great Hostilities, as my Alabama ancestors called, and still call it (or more properly, the term was used as a less controversial reference to the War around Yankees,

Good to know as a Boston person that the hatred of those damn Yankees..

Oh, wait.

- MM

[Belle Cri]

lol, well, yes we did loose that one fair and square, so.....

[Dianne S]

No, never. I'm glad to live in a time of good health care and sanitation, equality for women (at least in civilized countries) and enlightened attitudes toward LGBT. I would rather live now than any other time in history.

[Abby Kae]

Sometimes I feel out of time, but rather than feeling drawn to European culture with their courts and balls and dandies and fancy clothes, I'm more desiring of the shamanistic cultures. Native American, Mayan, Aztec, etc.

In those cultures, people who were "twin spirited" weren't only not frowned upon, but looked up to as the ideal. People who could walk the line between male and female, in balance, were something very special. In some Native American cultures, shamans often lived as both genders, switching fluidly between the two as they meet the health and spiritual needs of their community.

I'm not sure why, but that sounds appealing to me.

[Krisi]

Several hundred years ago, most of us would have been peasants, slaving in the fields. Not a happy life. And breast forms (and bras) had not been invented yet.

A hundred years ago, we would have been picking cotton or slaving in factories. Not a happy life. And breast forms (and bras) had still not been invented yet.

For the most part, we have it pretty good in 2015.

[Katey888]

The only temporal tug I feel is to the 1980's and 90's but that's definitely a yearning for lost youth (and the influence of shoulder pads and tailored outfits in my formative and dating years.. ) rather than a big change in fashions...

It is an interesting thought as to how crossdressers/ 3rd nature/ bigendered folk presented in days gone by. I'm sure I read that native Americans did adopt the dress of native American women, similar for the Indian hijras and in the Far East where documented acknowledgment of this nature goes back millenia - but the stigma and taboos of western society seems to have kept it underground for centuries. Is it possible that the dominant need for (and societal dominance of) great machismo going back 1000 or so years, say, is what has repressed this natural occurrence but that with the relative stability, liberality and safety against persecution of just the past 50-60 years we are only now allowed to blossom in the west...? I think there's something interesting going on that we all might be a part of more distinct change and acknowledgment in the next few decades...

Any mention of historical references always gets me thinking of this, all blonde wig, pearl earrings and lacy ruffs:



All man in a dress, eh...? Flashheart, obviously - not Baldrick...

Katey x

[mechamoose]

That is so cool.

[Belle Cri]

It is an interesting thought as to how crossdressers/ 3rd nature/ bigendered folk presented in days gone by. I'm sure I read that native Americans did adopt the dress of native American women, similar for the Indian hijras and in the Far East where documented acknowledgment of this nature goes back millenia

Katey x

Quite so, in those cultures there is an identifiable institution of the third gender. I wonder if that is what we in fact struggle with often here.

Blackadder is a bloody scream - has a real subculture following here

[St. Eve]

Yes, yes, yes,

I often quote Chaung Tzu, a Taoist Philosopher....(and I basterdize the quote)

"Sitting in the center watching yes and no chase each other around the circle, I know the Tao....'

When I teach this quote, I always use the following example
...if I were standing here in heels, hose, a frilly tunic, a wig and powdered make-up and it was 200 years ago, I would be the picture of upstanding masculinity, but, if I came here today to teach this class in heels, hose, a dress, make-up, and a wig, y'all probably would think me the opposite of masculine and may not have even stayed for class.

Also, as has been shared already, I am grateful for some of the native cultures who treated LGBTQI folks as special and wonderful people. Many folks I know have said they believe I am doing shaman's work in my practice....maybe I am just gender fluid from remembering past lives as a shaman...

I sure appreciate the topic....

Peace
St. Eve

[Eryn]

Several hundred years ago, we would have all been the power elite with our wigs, makeup, stockings, heels, and elaborate or subdued costume, and perfectly, consciously male to boot. Not an ounce of conflict.

True, but those were the power elite of the era. That many years ago about 80% of us would be dead of childhood diseases and those who were lucky enough to survive would be little better than slaves, regardless of gender. Every lord and king needed thousands of serfs to support their lifestyle!

[Persephone]

Good to know as a Boston person that the hatred of those damn Yankees..

- MM

Ha! Once upon a time, a long time ago indeed, I did a few days of program testing in Boston. At lunchtime one day I went for a walk and came upon a small pocket park with statues of Grant, Sherman, Mclellan, etc. My first thought was, "OMG! Who would put up statues to those scalawags?" Then I remembered that I was on their turf.

I have some family photos that would scare the living hell out of you LOL.

I don't scare easily! Feel free to PM me a couple if you wish to!

I see a lot in this discussion about how kind the Native Americans were and how awful the white men have been for "1,000 years" and I have to take a bit of exception.

While yes, there definitely were Native American tribes that accepted us, and a few that even elevated us, there were others who treated transgendered members, especially MtF transgenders, quite cruely and in some it may have even resulted in a very barbaric death. Tribes were spread out and very ddifferent in their outlooks and cannot be generalized about.

I've done some research into source materials from the late 1600's and early 1700's, as well as some other historical periods, and there was more acceptance among European and "white American" cultures than we are usually led to believe. This was particularly true of crossdressing. In some cases it was accepted, in others it was regarded as nothing more than a mild eccentricity. Again, blanket assumptions are often incorrect.

Hugs,
Persephone.