What are your thoughts on male privilege?

[JenniferYager]

This sort of came up in Isha's post, but I didn't want to hijack it.

Question is: what are your thoughts on "male privilege?"
- What is it? Can you define it?
- Does it exist everywhere? Is it a work thing, social thing, or something else entirely?
- Is there a female privilege (say, in the nursing field)?
- How have you experienced it while crossdressing?
- Is it a problem that is solveable? Is it entirely on men to solve, or is it more a sexual difference problem that requires work on both sides? Or, do we even need to solve it?

My thoughts: I think it's less of a male thing and more of an aggressive thing.

I've seen females in many meetings and discussions get ignored because of one or two loud mouths at a table (who are normally men). To me, that's a leadership problem, because whomever runs the meeting needs to ensure that the group gets the best ideas, no matter where they come from. I've personally told people to pipe down and specifically called on quieter people (female and male) to get their ideas, and in the end we get a better product.

On the flip side, I had a very aggressive female on a job that just ran rough shod over everyone's opinions. She was bad for morale and didn't listen to anyone, male or female. It took some time but I got her bad habits under control and helped teach her how to be inclusive while also still harnessing her drive to get things done.

As a crossdresser, I've gotten a small taste of the flip side, but because I haven't gone to work in female mode, my experiences are limited to being oggled and bumped up on at bars and occasionally talked over in conversation. For me though, part of the allure of crossdressing is being completely different, so I enjoy being a lot more passive and having the attention without having to take the lead on things. Plus it means I did a good job on makeup/cleavage

But I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[kimdl93]

I have worked with patient, compassionate and empathetic people of both genders and A**holes (that's a technical term) of both as well.

[Leslie Langford]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Women constantly complain about this alleged "male" privilege, which seems to be exacerbated in their eyes if one happens to be Caucasian. As with beauty, this concept is often in the eyes of the beholder.

The feminists launched their war on the male population in earnest about 50 years ago, and while they will never admit it, they have pretty much achieved their fundamental goals in all of the areas previously under contention. Women today can do anything - and often more - than a man can do, including freely wearing opposite-sex clothing (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), as many here continuously lament.

What the feminists don't talk about is the female sense of entitlement that they have historically laid claim to and which includes expectations of deferential and chivalrous treatment on the part of their male counterparts ("Happy wife, happy life", "If Momma's happy, everyone is happy" etc.). This is something that they have yet to volunteer giving up in the name of the "equality" that they are so adamant in pursuing...

[Ezekiel]

Leslie, feminists still complain because there are still many issues that are far from being gender equal. The fact that women are paid less than men everywhere is something to start with, but the list goes on and on.

So no, females do not really have much of a privilege to talk about...

Regarding dressing unacceptance of certain clothes when worn by men (female associated clothing - basically crossdresing, or anything perceived outside the norm for a man), it is males that do this to themselves prohibiting their own gender many things because of very stupid ideas, so you should blame this kind of machism for not letting you express yourself freely, and instead of attacking feminists, you should support them, because it will be helpful for us all.

[Robin414]

I've never even though it existed until somewhat recently but now it's all I think about (when I stop to think about it, yikes, infinite loooooop)😐 It certainly DID exist, women weren't allowed to vote, have a job, or drive a car not 'that' long ago but obviously things have changed significantly. That said though the fact remains female CEOs make significantly less than their male counterparts and I think that still does trickle down. Interesting fact though, the highest paid female CEO in the US is actually TG😃

[Krisi]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

Perhaps you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to be the breadwinner of the family?
Or are you talking about the male privilege where you are forced to pay alimony and child support and have them taken directly out of your paycheck before you even see it but still pay taxes on it?
Are you talking about the male privilege where your ex wife and children remain in the home you are still paying for while you live in a one room efficiency apartment down by the railroad tracks?

Or could it be the male privilege where your lifespan is ten years less than a female?

All in all, the grass is the same degree of green on both sides of the fence. In some ways, the males may have it better, in other ways, the females have it better. In reality, all of us here are "privileged". World wide, the majority of folks are scrounging for food and shelter every day and don't have the time or resources to join and post on Internet forums.

[Ezekiel]

Krisi, all you are talking about is MACHISM, not privilege, thats why I am pointing out the two must be differentiated, even if they are related in some instances. Its a kind of machism that backfires many times on males. Its sexism if you want to call it that way, that puts pressure on people to meet certain stupid criteria.

Thats why I'm stressing that if you want this to change, you should support feminism, and feminism does not mean to step over males, it means equality in every sense. Even if the word "feminism" sounds like stepping over males, it is not used to describe that, it is used to describe a movement of equality.

[Krisi]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

[Ezekiel]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

You don't get it, do you?

You keep thinking the privilege we are talking about here means males are entitled to do everything, and females not. No... this is not what we are talking about here.

Women experience machism everyday in their lifes, to how they are supossed to look, to what they are being paid, to how they are supossed to behave... and a long very long etcetera.

Men experience machism everyday too, but since they are men, they are taken seriously, respected and being given higher standards on everything just because they are males.

But of course as long as they meet what society demands a man to be. And here is where they experience machism / sexism aswell.

You get the point now? You see why the term male privilege and machism / sexism are related but are not the same? You see why the term "privilege" is misleading here in some points?

[Greenie]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

You can take the opposite and ask questions about women... The point I think is to look at the bigger picture. Everyone can make an argument against something in culture.

I feel like what you are saying is: We have a black president so racism is over. Is the same to me as Men pay for dates so there is no male privilege.

Some brief examples I can think of to the contrary, that have been notable recently:

Women gamers are threatened that they will be raped and killed daily. Are male gamers?
Women youtubers have people comment on their music videos that they should do kill them selves. That they should be raped and murdered. Are Male youtubers treated the same?
Women have sex with multiple partners they are ****s and *****s, men do the same and they are given fist bumps and high fives.
Men don't get harassed at work or told that they are distracting in the work place to the opposite sex. (Personal example. I was wearing slacks and a turtleneck and high heels.)
Men don't get called things like "Hun, Babe, Sweet cakes, Little lady, Little girl, Etc At work" (Also a personal Experience)

For all your examples of how male privilege doesn't exist, I can come up with hundreds for how it does. I think its time we knowledge that it does. And that female privilege also happens in instances related to child care, child custody battles, etc and that the world is never gong to be perfectly in the middle all the time. For every time you can think of example that women have the upper hand, the same can be done for men.

I do agree that we are socioeconomically privileged to be sitting here on our smart phones and computers arguing about whether or not "privilege exists" and if its more skewed towards males and females.

Each of us brings our own life experience to the table. So that makes it so that our opinions are naturally going to be different. Its meeting in the middle and discussing them in an educated and thought out manner that is what is needed for our society to move forwards.

We all have our own biases. And I think its time we own that. As a female, my major oppression has been sexism. I have viewed it in a different way then you have, naturally. My lens is coated by the sexual harassment I receive daily while walking on the streets of Seattle. The fear that I have when needing to walk from the building to my car when its dark outside. The constant reminder in my head in the voice of my mother to "not get raped." Because being raped is still teh womans fault, instead of the fault of the rapist. When the first question people ask is, what was she wearing? If a man is raped, that question will never be asked.

This is my world and these are my truths. Meanwhile your lens is how you have experienced the world as a Male? (I don't recall if you are CD or TG). And your examples must be rooted in experience. Dating, the war, sports. Etc. (Side note, women actually don't think its a privilege to be able to just "sit there and look pretty", we also want to be accepted for our skills and ability, to excel and be taken seriously, looks and beauty of often something women don't feel "privileged by) I am wondering if there is also an age gap between you and myself. That ideal of women is very much not true anymore for my generation.

Can you acknowledge that my life experience, and those of many women, can lead to a world where many women see males as privilege? Because I can acknowledge that your life experience makes it so that you do not feel like male privilege exists.

Bigger picture, when a collective body (women) feel that they are a marginalized minority, would it not make sense to look at the collective of those women s experiences and say, "You know what, this many people feel this way, whether I agree with the terminology or not, there has got to be something happening here?" If a bunch of people say X, Maybe X might be a possibility to consider"

[ReineD]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

[Marcelle]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

Hi Reine,

I would bet you are wrong. A predominant portion of men (macho/mucho Alpha types) I know would never admit to "male privilege". Oh I am sure they know it exists on some level but in their mind it does not. However, I have also met men who admit it does exist and take steps to help it disappear. But then again I am sure there are many here who also understand what male privilege is just as there are those who will never admit to it . . . we are after all still a representative portion of society with all our biases and judgments.

I think what happens is that some cannot see the big picture and make it more personal . . . "I never got everything handed to me because I am a male and had to work darn hard" . . . on that I can agree. Yes, being born male has provided me with certain advantages which was not afforded to my female counterparts in the military . . . especially the combat arms profession . . . instant tactical credibility because I am a man comes to mind. Does that negate my own hard work in my career? No, however I would be narrow minded to not admit "male privilege" exists. It is not about me or what I have achieved, it is endemic to society and truth be told it needs to be stomped out by both genders.

As a man, just sit back and observe a meeting or interaction in the work place. Yes, there are women who have risen to become "Alpha" and carry that well, just there are plenty of men who shrink to the back of the meeting room. However, statistically, it is still very much an Alpha male world (depending the on occupation). Again, don't misquote me . . . it is not about you. We all can get some rather crappy cards dealt to us in life which may make us think we personally have not benefited from privilege but if you think long an hard . . . it has happened. Does that mean you didn't work hard or suffered your share of indignities, strife or just all around crap? No, but again it is not about you, it is about society in general.

Cheers

Isha

[flatlander_48]

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:

1. Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
2. If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
3. If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
4. If #2 was yes, describe the situation.

Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Here's a bit of news to show that things are indeed becoming more equal!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0138b0bf44b98

[flatlander_48]

You know, the fact that no one commented on this tells me that there is no interest in trying to actually understand what women experience. Sad to say, that speaks volumes...

DeeAnn

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:

1. Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
2. If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
3. If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
4. If #2 was yes, describe the situation.

Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[Katey888]

Yes - of course privilege exists...

On all sides - male-female... just differently - and it's probably exaggerated in commerce, industry, finance. But would anyone deny that males and females are different? Total equality (for anyone, not just gender equality) is a Utopian ideal - we can strive for it, but it can never be attained, although we can definitely get closer...

I've had male and female bosses in business - on balance, the women have been as good as the men and I've probably had a better relationship with them (hmmm... maybe something there... ) - I don't think this is something a CDer will come across much unless, like Isha, they are really gender fluid and exhibit both presentations separately in the same environment.

Interesting fact though, the highest paid female CEO in the US is actually TG😃

It was a fact in 2014 - but in 2015 (Forbes - April this year) she's not in the top 10 (2014's results were heavily skewed by stock price growth) - there is an interesting article here on her in nymag - I hadn't heard of her before today so well done Robin for finding that... I would have thought some of our TS members would have mentioned her before but perhaps I'm not looking in the right places.

I know CDers are often accused of wanting to retain male privilege but I really think that's misunderstanding why we do what we do (or at least, those who present publicly and exhibit more of a TG/ gender fluid behaviour) - although sometimes it remains a significant mystery to me, but I don't stop doing femme just to consciously retain male privilege: I do it because it's the more 'common' part of me...

Katey x

[Greenie]

I accidentally deleted my post on the phone app: for some reason the phone version of this is not working:

I think some people are confused about what privilege is. There definitely is male privilege. But there are other types as well and some people here are confusing them.

First the definition:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"

In our society there is systematic oppression, structurally in how our government is run that often still marginalizes other groups. In other countries it can be better or worse.

There are different types of oppression, and privilege. I think its important for us as people on the Trans spectrum and those who are their allies, are really honest about privilege in all forms and what that means. I went to a conference and we talked about the violence against trans people. There is a reason why they most amount of people killed per year for hate crimes are, TRANS, WOMEN, of COLOR. Its the intersection of these oppression that suffer the most at the systematic oppression.

Examples:

Type of Oppression> Who feels it> who is "privileged" to not have that oppression

Sexism> Oppressed are historically women> so privileged are men.
Racism> People of Color > Whites
Heterosexism> Lesbians, gays, bi> Hetrosexuals
Gender> Cis gender> trans
Nationalism> immigrant's> Natural citizens
Religious hegemony > christian > non christian
Socioeconomic> poor> rich
Added*
Elitism>uneducated>educated
Able ism>disabled >non disabled
Etc

These things are important because its pointless to argue that male privilege doesn't exist, just because you are oppressed in another category. it doesn't really work that way. Luca and I talked about how him being born male, and how he was raised gave him many advantages as a male, that manifest as disadvantages when he portrays female.

For example, women are taught from a young age, not to tease men with your outfits, how to dress to get a man, the traits that a husband wants. How not to be raped. How to not walk alone.

Lucas was never taught these things. Many men were not. Why? Because they just haven't had to been taught that to the extent women have. The same is true for race, how people of color are conditioned to behave from a young age "don't touch anything they will think you stole it" is different than people who are white.

This is something that is bigger than all of us. It's bigger than, well my life wasn't that way so it's not true.

I really believe that we will never get anywhere in society until each and everyone of us, takes an honest look at our privilege and our oppression. Lacking in one area does not negate another. Owning this and moving forward is the way to progress. But as long as we have people who say that it doesn't exist, because of their life circumstances, who lack the ability to see the bigger picture, progress will stall.

I do see where many of you feel you have not seen or had male privilege. Growing up the way many of you have, with a variance in your gender. I think its easy play a victim and say that because of the way you are, you have no male privilege, and say that I have had nothing.

I could also do that, saying I grew up a poor girl. So privilege doesn't exist for me. But my world as a poor white, cis gendered girl, was a hell of a lot different than a poor black trans girl. But we are both women, and both poor?! Right? Our experiences must have been similar? Likening my life experience to hers, would be wrong! I didn't have any privilege she didn't? Right? We were both poor and women. So obviously racism doesn't exist. Sounds silly doesn't it? Yet, That's the types of comments I have been seeing here. And I hope that you read that and see how very some of you are. Its not about "Who has it better" its about who has an unfair advantage and who is disadvantaged due to the way they are BORN. And that is always wrong.

And yes, we have made strides, women can vote, women can work. But systematically, there are many things that haven't changed. Here is a list from a website of 30 ways male privilege still exists: They also have a list on Heterosexual privilege, and did one a while ago on christian privilege, and cis gendered privilege. If many of us here can agree that there is Cis Gender or Hetero Privilege, I don't see why we are debating Male Privilege.

[Abby Kae]

In my short time here on these forums, I've seen a couple posts about tips for feeling safe when dressing in public at night.

If you've ever gone out at night, in drab, and never felt the need to worry about your safety, you've experienced first hand what male privilege is.

If you've ever gone out at night, en femme, and made sure to travel with friends, in supportive neighborhoods, staying near street lights, you've experienced first hand the sudden lack of that male privilege.

You can talk about affirmative action causing you to be overlooked for promotions, or how you're a nice guy who always finishes last, or how you got drafted into a war you didn't want to fight, and none of those feelings are invalid. But none of those things make up for the fact that you can go out at night, in drab, without fear of violence for what gender you are.

[Felicia Dee]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

[Tina_gm]

We can say all day what male privilege used to be, being able to vote, or the limitless jobs one could have, the better pay etc etc...

Today, that is quickly disappearing. There is some certain male privilege today, I believe that males are still not looked down upon if they have numerous sexual partners, at least not looked down upon the same way women are. Men can still show anger and aggression and it be ok, of course so long as no actual harm comes from it. A woman showing these emotions often gets the title of bitch. I do believe there is a certain amount of extra respect of men in leadership positions. When a male CEO or some other leadership position, he will likely not be questioned as much, or doubted as much.

I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

[Ezekiel]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

And nobody doubts that. Nobody here ever pointed anything like that for a male life is as easy as having a walk in the park.

Again, this thread is discussing sexism, not anybodys personal story. I don't want to sound like a bitch, but it seems it has to be pointed out every 2-3 responses...

I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

We could perhaps start a new thread about what we all think about female privilege. Infact, I'm going to start it myself to see what people here thinks is female privilege, because im really, really curious, as I don't really see much privileges for females myself.

[Marcelle]

Hi Jennifer,

In response to your question(s), here is my best stab in the dark and based on my opinion only. WRT "male privilege"

I am sure there are several textbook definitions and countless treatises written on the subject. IMHO "male privilege" historically was the result of men running rough shod over society and making the rules to better their own situation in life. When it came to the sexes, again historically, men did what they wanted and women stayed at home, cooked, cleaned and raised the family. Now that is history so let's place it in a more up to date context. Today, (again IMO) "male privilege" exists as a legacy to the historical account above. It is very real and what it means is that in some occupations (not all) women can expect to make on average 77 cents on the dollar to their male counterparts, glass ceilings exist at the executive level, men typically (and not always) get immediate credibility based on their gender for some occupations whereas women must always fight to gain that same credibility and women are more likely to put their careers on hold to raise a family then men (although that too is changing). Yes, I am sure there are countless other examples but these tend to be the more salient points

What male privilege is not and this is what I take great exception with, is that men have everything handed to them on a silver platter and never have to work for anything. Some may cry foul but I will say that while this may have been the way long, long ago and read ruling elite males not your everyday run of the mill serf, many men today work extremely hard to achieve and when they don't they work harder. When I was born, the doctor didn't proclaim "It's a boy. Sit back son and coast from this point forward . . . anything you want is yours so just ask." Nope, I had to work for everything I achieved and it was far from easy folks.

To be honest, privilege exists in all strata of society. People of both genders who come from affluential families have a leg up on all aspects of life for which their counterparts in the less financially advantaged brackets don't have. When it comes to getting a job the literature will bear out that being youthful, vibrant, well dressed and gregarious is normally associated with high work ethic, professional, confident, honest and a go getter even if the person has limited skills and average work performance (this goes for both genders BTW). Conversely being overweight, not dressed in stylish clothes, being quiet, demure and so on is more likely to be associated with being lazy, slovenly and a poor work ethic irrespective of being highly skilled with a good track record (again for both genders but women tend to be discriminated against more so in this category).

Have I experienced this while presenting as a woman? My recent example of the meeting where I was marginalized may seem a likely example but then again that may have just been a group of Alpha males seeing me as less than male due to the fact I was dressed as a woman. Not really a privilege thing but an Alpha attempt to establish dominance which BTW I have seen women use quite effectively to make even the most mucho macho man shrink into the background. That is not privilege but personality. If it were a privilege, then any man could just speak up at table full of both genders and the women would shrink into the background . . . Umm, I have seen plenty of non-alpha males try and get shut down by both genders post haste.

In the end, the type of privilege you are alluding to is IMHO a legacy issue and one that will eventually (albeit at a snails pace) go the way of the Dodo as more women attain positions of power and the Neanderthal males who are still living la vita loco stuck in their "Leave to Beaver" existence shuffle off this mortal coil. Will it be a hard fight? You bet it will and both genders need to push these archaic concepts to the curve. Will it happen overnight? Not likely as it is heavily ingrained. However, IMHO, it will happen.

Cheers

Isha

[Abby Kae]

I think it's quite telling that even the OP used subconscious male privilege in defining the question.

Loud males were told to "pipe down", and a similar female had her "bad habits" corrected.

Male privilege is definitely a thing. Isha's meeting example isn't an isolated incident, though it's absolutely interesting to see one person on both sides of the coin.

My wife has 24 direct report employees working for her, she has the most experience in the company, the most experience in the field, the highest relevant education (Ph.D.) in her department, is very well liked and trusted, and is constantly told by extra-departmental leadership that she is the greatest asset the company has.

Her male subordinates and peers still constantly talk over her.

Gender equality is big in our house, even before our two daughters were born, and was the subject of her dissertation.

Male privilege is real, feminism isn't an attack on men, deniers are just plain wrong. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

[ReineD]

Her male subordinates and peers still constantly talk over her.

Yup, that's what happens to me too. To get my point across, I've had to use attention grabbers like "Gentlemen" (when I was the only woman there), or "This is how I think we should proceed", or addressing the person with the loudest voice by name and then taking advantage of the slightest lull in the conversation. I'm pretty sure this is what guys do too. The only difference is they've been socialized to do so at an earlier age than us, so we just have to catch up! (... and this is NOT being "less feminine")

Once I get started with what I have to say, the men have no problem listening and valuing my contribution.

I've had the same problem in my own family when sitting around the table with my three sons. And I know they do not think my contributions to the conversation are less valuable than theirs. It's just a question of defining my space and carving it out, just like men.

As to male vs female privilege in general, women have traditionally deferred to men in some areas and men have traditionally deferred to women in other areas - we each have our stereotypical areas of "expertise" - although the gender gap is narrowing there too. The only areas where the gap will not narrow so much is anything to do with physical size and strength.

To Isha ... you have a thread about this and I just want to say that you already know how to carve your space, so you shouldn't experience any issues with having your voice heard? Having a stronger physical voice does help, but it is not essential.

[Judith96a]

I've had to use attention grabbers like "Gentlemen" (when I was the only woman there), or "This is how I think we should proceed", or addressing the person with the loudest voice by name and then taking advantage of the slightest lull in the conversation. I'm pretty sure this is what guys do too. The only difference is they've been socialized to do so at an earlier age than us, so we just have to catch up! (... and this is NOT being "less feminine")
...
I've had the same problem in my own family when sitting around the table with my three sons. And I know they do not think my contributions to the conversation are less valuable than theirs. It's just a question of defining my space and carving it out, just like men.

Once my wife, mother in law and my wife's aunts get started talking its nigh on impossible to get a word in without resorting to similar tactics!