Rle

[Eryn]

Actually, what you linked to was not an article about whatever, it was a pdf of a set of guidelines from EEF.

Sorry, once I happened upon the actual pamphlet I inadvertently replaced the link to the article with a link to the pamphlet. Here is the article:

http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/

The thing I find remarkable about it is that the "Real Life Experience" requirement was likely created by Erickson's personal physician with no research at all. The requirement has been brought forward to the present pretty much intact. That's a pretty shaky background for a requirement being used to determine such life-changing decisions.

I'm curious, has anyone run across any research showing that a specific period of RLE improves the chances of a good overall outcome?

[becky77]

I'm curious, has anyone run across any research showing that a specific period of RLE improves the chances of a good overall outcome?

Remember that the primary reason for RLE was as a prep for surgery or HRT in some places still.

I think if you know, you know. Then it's kinda jumping through hoops.

But there are many that are either confused or deluded, it is for those that RLE helps, making someone do a period of time living full-time as a woman, is possibly the only surety there can be.

Living as a woman for some is nothing like what they thought it would be, those are the ones that it could prevent from making a big mistake.

I think the Gender clinic is well aware of how many people cheat the system, so trust is lost
If you were a health care professional, would you risk your career by taking someones word, or would you protect yourself by asking for documents to back up the RLE?

What's the point of RLE?
If someone can't afford a name change, they can't afford surgery, so what is RLE achieving?

I've always thought RLE was a proving period, other's seem to think it's just general experience.
So does RLE have one meaning medically, multiple meanings medically dependent on area or whatever meaning you decide you want it to be?

Going back to what Rianna says about our own RLE.
The Gender clinic in London asked for a deed poll and letter from work, they considered the deed poll date as my start date.
Although they did say my previous experience may well count towards decreasing the length of RLE expected, I had been on HRT for a year before that.
The RLE as far as I was made aware , was only related to getting on the list for surgery.

I have an appt. this Friday, I'm thinking to ask if they have a guideline to what constitutes RLE. Of course this would only be relevant to the NHS.

[PaulaQ]

You can agree to disagree with me. I will not be swayed. I would go as far to say that the second year full time even with the benefit of FFS is exponentially more difficult than early transition before full time and even the first year of full time.

Would you mind explaining why you feel this way, or what you experienced that made you feel this way? This has not been my experience, quite the opposite, actually, and so I am curious about why you feel as you do.

[Badtranny]

Would you mind explaining why you feel this way, or what you experienced that made you feel this way? This has not been my experience, quite the opposite, actually, and so I am curious about why you feel as you do.

I agree with Stef, I think my second year was worse than the first. Third year is better than the first ...so far.

Perhaps it's about expectations. In year one I expected to be read a lot and in year two I WAS read a lot. I ascribe my bumpy socialization to the industry I work in.

Lately though I'm beginning to think I could've saved myself a lot of trouble by just keeping my old name and maybe throwing on a tie at work every now and then. :-)

[Jorja]

For me, my second year was better than the first. I think Melissa is correct in saying it is about expectations. I also believe your attitude and personality have a lot to do with how that second year goes.

[Nigella]

Again, what do you mean by "legally female?" There is no such thing. Do you mean having at least one piece of ID that lists your gender as female? Having all your ID agree? Do you include passport and birth certificate, in which case do you really mean to say that you apply different criteria for living full time vary depending on where someone was born?

Within the UK your "legal" gender is what is recorded on your birth certificate, that is why we have the process of Gender Recognition. I can't comment on one of the processes required to obtain this certificate, my application was made via the virtue of living as female for more than 6 years. I needed my GP to contribute a medical report, a solicitor to witness a statutory declaration and provide evidence of "living" as female from a point at least 6 years in the past. Once the panel has made a decision, and it is a positive one, you are issued a Gender Recognition Certificate, it is only with this document can you obtain a new birth certificate.

As I have mentioned before, a name change in the UK can just be a piece of paper saying from this date, I want to be known as. For the purposes of "officialdom" they generally require something more substantial and this is usually a Deed Poll.

This thread has diversified into more than RLE, but lets not get stuck on the right or wrong way, after all Exerience is what we all gain, just by living.

[PaulaQ]

@Melissa, Jorja - thanks, I think situation and expectations and personality would definitely contribute to your experiences in year two. I asked because I'd wondered if it was a work thing. My job situation so far has been fortunate - I kept mine, and I work remotely. There have still been issues, but I have no doubt that I've taken at least 90% less crap than many of us do. So I hope I didn't seem judgmental for asking - I just know my situation is very fortunate in some ways, and so my experience wasn't typical.

[Eryn]

Becky, what I was curious about is if any one has found research on the effectiveness of RLE in preventing post-medical-intervention regret.

My feeling is that someone who didn't move spontaneously toward a RLE situation isn't likely to be successful post-op. It shouldn't be something that one has to be told to do, but the natural way the person's life is going.

Feelings aren't data, though, and I would like to see something more solid.

[Badtranny]

- I just know my situation is very fortunate in some ways, and so my experience wasn't typical.

I share that sentiment. I am also incredibly fortunate despite my career struggles. I hardly ever complain because I don't really have a lot to complain about, but I also think it's important to share my struggles here for the gals on the edge. I personally know plenty of trans women who have had a much harder time than I have.

There's no question though that employment discrimination is a very real thing. Even for aggressive executive types who have never felt discrimination for anything ever.

[Jorja]

There's no question though that employment discrimination is a very real thing. Even for aggressive executive types who have never felt discrimination for anything ever.

While I do not think I was ever discriminated against in my career, I do know many that have been. This is in part why I started hiring TG/TS people. It could have very well blew up in my face but my customers are very accepting when a crew shows up and isn't quite like all the rest of the construction crews out there. They are really happy when the project comes in under budget and early. Besides, it pisses off the competition when we repeatedly get bids and they don't.

[stefan37]

Pre fulltime was very easy in many ways. There was the giddiness of doing something I would dream about , but never had the courage to. It was a period of coming out to family, friends, employees, clients. First year full time was also relatively easy. I went what i consider full time after my name change and gender marker change on legal documents. I still had not had facial reconstruction and it would be at least another 15 months before I was able to afford that. Being gendered male or female was 50/50. Funny thing I would be gendered more frequently female while in work or casual clothing. Oddly wearing dresses or skirts I would be gendered male more frequently.

Year 2 went to Mexico for facial reconstruction. Yay!! Now finally my facial features no longer screamed male. The first couple months went extremely well. Almost never gendered male. Worked hard on voice and things seemed to be going well. Then inexplicably the past month. Things didn't go so well. For whatever reason I was being gendered male more frequently. It was disheartening especially after spending a huge chunk of pesos and time on facial reconstruction. I've had to sit back and reflect what am i doing wrong? It could very well be expectations, the industry I work in (I own an electrical/mechanical contracting business). It could even be the stress of obtaining pre-op clearances for SRS scheduled Nov. 3rd. It possibly also has to do that I have not yet truly integrated as female. Yeah people treat me respect and for the most part are good with pronouns. They don't think I'm male, yet they don't think I'm female either. I'm not talking about casual encounters at stores or restaurants. I'm speaking to teaching, social clubs and organizations. Interacting at the pool. Yeah I use the women's locker room and there haven't been any issues. But it's different.

I have a strong personality and confidence many regard as arrogance. I don't complain much as evidenced by my posting history. I have had it relatively smooth. I have my family intact, friends, employees, and clients. The business has grown tremendously in the years since I stepped off the cliff. I swim 6000 yds a week, don't drink or do drugs. I am the healthiest ever in my life. I have also suffered a catastrophic loss of my 31 year marriage. My only savings are what I have for SRS and even that is 10 grand short. It's my experience nobody transitions unscathed. (I'm sure some member or 2 will pipe in how their transition has been fairy tale perfect). That is not my experience, nor of the girls I hang with regularly.

But the thing is. I'm in it for the long haul. Whatever challenges are thrown my way, I have to overcome them experience success integrating. Transition is a life long process. I'm sure after 5 years or more many of the challenges will be a non-issue.
You can debate RLE or full time all you want. But the proof of doing it is when you put skin in the game and live 24/7 as your authentic self. Not living as female except for........

I read posts about members fearful of losing marriages, employment etc and not having any game plan for transition or even how they will pay for it. Be so excited to start hormones. Well guess what. Things will get real very fast. Hopefully our e experiences can help them understand what they may be in for.
You will experience relief from your GD. You will get the freedom to live your life authentically everywhere without hiding. You will not experience blanket respect or proper pronouns. You may or not keep your job.
'If you do keep your job. expect that things will change. You will be treated differently. You may experience a pay cut. Or not be considered for a promotion. People will get the name rather quickly. Expect the pronouns to not be so forthcoming.

The above is Real Life full time experience. It has nothing to do with time frame for surgery. It is living your life authentically as female 24/7.

[becky77]

Becky, what I was curious about is if any one has found research on the effectiveness of RLE in preventing post-medical-intervention regret.

My feeling is that someone who didn't move spontaneously toward a RLE situation isn't likely to be successful post-op. It shouldn't be something that one has to be told to do, but the natural way the person's life is going.
.

I agree, but those of us that are serious will do it properly, RLE is just living your life after all.

It only comes into affect with those that are looking for surgery without intentions of living full-time, let's assume their motives are not sound.
How do you protect people from themselves? Also do we need to protect people, they are adults after all.

I have no idea how affective RLE is, if we didn't have it would things be the same or would there be more tragic stories.

If you do RLE properly then you have to 'pull the pin' (tm), if you've done that, you must be pretty serious.

[Angela Campbell]

I wasn't asked for anything to prove that I spent a year full time, by anyone. I did have a relationship of sorts with my therapist, but he took my word for everything.

My srs surgeon asked for 1 letter and my licensed therapist ( not a psychologist ) provided one for me.

I did know the standards and I did have over a year of RLE full time, name changed, out at work etc....

I took it upon myself to make sure.

Most surgeons require the letter. ..or letters, to cover their ....rear end. Same with the therapist. They don't want someone suing them because you made a mistake.

[Jorja]

I took it upon myself to make sure.

This is the difference between someone not sure and someone who really needs/wants it.

[Kimberly Kael]

How do you protect people from themselves?

That's an interesting and subtle question with no easy answers. Putting some friction in the system so that people have a chance to recognize what they're getting into is a time-tested approach. That's essentially what RLE does.

Also do we need to protect people, they are adults after all.

Even the US isn't actually have a society where people are left entirely to their own devices. There's a social contract in place that gives us all something of a safety net in exchange for some level of collective responsibility. Licensed medical professionals swear an oath to do no harm, and they can't provide services that contradict that oath. The insurance companies that are increasingly being asked to pay for transition care are using pooled funds and have a responsibility to everyone who pays in to ensure that they're used wisely.

[Eryn]

Replace "Even" with "Especially" and I'll agree with you.

The US system is driven by insurance companies and lawyers. The insurance companies want us to fear the lawyers because that raises insurance rates. The lawyers fight the insurance companies because that is where the money is. Together they extract a huge amount of money from everyone while returning no tangible product.

The result is that insurance companies are increasingly making decisions that were previously made by individual physicians. You'd think that prescriptions should be the province of the physician but my patches have to be double-approved because both the pharmacy (fearing lawsuits) and insurance company (limiting expenses) won't recognize that what might be a high dose for a GG is perfectly appropriate for a TG person. By rights, they should learn and adapt, but the fact is that it is cheaper and legally safer to discourage me from treatment by creating hoops.

The question is where prudent caution becomes blatant obstruction. If the insurance companies had their way RLE would be 10 years.

[Angela Campbell]

This is the difference between someone not sure and someone who really needs/wants it.

no. I was referring to making sure nothing got in my way, or became an obstacle. I knew full well that I was going to have srs before I ever changed my name or had ffs.

[Badtranny]

you know it occurs to me that it really only matters how long the prescribed period of RLE is to the girls who are going forth with SRS.

We're talking about it like it's some kind of milestone that we hit and then ...what? RLE is really just transition. The gatekeepers want you to be fully transitioned as your target gender for at least a year before they feel comfortable signing off on a life changing surgery. Why this would be considered prohibitive by anyone is beyond me.

I know there are many here who think they are actually transitioned even though they keep their male name, male identity etc etc. Some think that wearing women's clothes at every opportunity is comparable to actually coming out and owning who you really are. I wonder if these people can comprehend the permanence of something like SRS?

If SRS isn't part of the plan, than nobody is concerned with your RLE. If it is part of the plan, then I hope it all works out.

[Michelle789]

With due respect Misty, there are many of us who are unable to change our names and gender for legal, financial, or possible other reasons. Sometimes it can be due to emotional baggage. I'm still not sure if I want to keep my last name or change it - I'm literally torn. I don't want to go through 2 or 3 name changes.

I could change my first name, middle name & gender. That's name change #1.

Then I could change my last name if I decide not to keep it. That's name change #2.

And if Cody and I get married, I'll be changing my last name once more. That's name change #3.

All of this could potentially happen in the next several years. Do you really think I want to go through multiple name changes in a few years? Heck no. Once I decide what to do with my last name, I will change it. But I only want to go through the process once, not twice. That is not counting if Cody and I decide to get married. I'm willing to do two name changes - one for name & gender, and one for getting married. But I don't want to go through two name changes unless one of them is for marriage. Please understand I have cultural reasons behind my dilemma.

If Cody proposes to me tomorrow, then the answer is easy. I'll change name & gender upon legally getting married. But we're taking our relationship slow and are not close to seriously getting married. So I'm left with the dilemma of whether to keep or change my last name - my name that will be my last name until I do get married.

Oh, and what about people from the great state of Texas where it's incredibly difficult to change name & gender? Or people who simply can't afford the cost?

Now I do plan on doing something very soon. After my trip to NY, I plan on changing my photo and gender marker on my driver's license. Although it's incomplete documentation change, it's legally allowed in California. It's something that's long overdue. I admit, it's my fault for not doing this sooner, but better late than never. Ok, not all my fault. I wasn't expecting to be sick in bed for two months earlier this year. I'm waiting until after my trip because California does this stupid, annoying paper license thing, and it takes about 4-6 weeks for the real license to arrive by mail. I'd rather have an actual license with wrong information on it, than a paper license with no photo and correct gender marker, because God only knows how the TSA, rental car agency, and cops in NY will react to a temporary paper California driver's license. Sorry, but the temp paper license is one of many things that are so annoying about living in California.

[stefan37]

If somebody cannot afford the cost of name change. They certainly can't afford the cost of SRS.

SRS despite the relative successes is a major irreversible surgery. There is a serious risk of major complications that are much more common and many that suffer them don't broadcast. Many are not even able to have the surgery due to health issues. The results of the surgery can be detrimental or even fatal to those individuals and they are denied. But the thing is they are committed to living as their authentic Selves 24/7.

Don't want to change your name or gender. Have at it. Transition is challenging enough with legal female identification. I can't even imagine how difficult it is for someone for whatever reason lives with preferred name and gender and legal male name and gender.

Think of it in this way. Upon your death. What name and gender will be on your death certificate. If you haven't changed your name or gender. I guarantee it will be your male name and gender. When Trans individuals are tragically killed. People get up in arms because they use the wrong name and gender and not the preferred. Well yeah. Their drivers license or legal I'd says a different thing. You cannot discount the importance of legal I'd.

You want and need to integrate as a woman. You want those close to you to take you seriously that you are a woman. Then be a woman. Commit to living as one.

I know my family and employees would not take me seriously if I didn't commit to at least a name change. In the business world it is all about legal Id. There is no make believe. Bank loans, professional licenses, contracts, business ownership and legal organization documents. Tax records.


I don't understand this opposition to living as a woman before receiving irreversible surgery that will remove your male genitalia.

I do advocate people make their own decisions on what surgeries they want and on their own timeline. The only opposition would be their health and medical preop clearances.

[arbon]

Some people I think really transition to being openly trans and enjoying the tranny rides but not really understanding what transitioning to being a woman is.

How is it full time being a woman when you still have a male name? Its not. Its full time being transgender. That is okay, but not the same.
Being a woman and wanting to have corrective surgery why in the world would you have a male name by choice?

[Dianne S]

I know nobody that lives 24/7 as female that has not changed their legal name or gender.

I did that. My hatred of going back-and-forth reached the point that I went full-time in April and only received my Change of Name in July and my new driver's license yesterday.

Yes, the few times I had to show ID, it was a bit annoying. But it was usually in a situation where somebody was about to take my money or in a medical situation and everyone I dealt with was courteous and respectful.

I should say that it was always my intent to change my name legally. I agree with Stefan that going full-time without intending to change your name and gender marker does seem like it would cause unnecessary problems.

[Angela Campbell]

RLE is only something used by a therapist or psychologist to determine readiness for SRS. Wpath uses this as a recommendation as a way to do the same. Many therapists use the WPATH standards. Another reason the RLE is used and required by most of the surgeons performing this surgery is to limit liability. To counter you if you rush into this and have your life changed by removal of your sexual organs and then try to sue. Completion of a year or more of RLE is a good sign that you completely understand what you are getting into. I believe this is a sound guideline.
I chose to follow these guidelines regardless of how close my therapist chose to.

All therapists approach this differently as far as determination of RLE or readiness for surgery or HRT. If they strongly follow the WPATH guidelines then they will require at least a year of RLE which would include a legal name change, continued employment and coming out to all who know you. Excuses such as ...I can't afford it....I can't let my employer or some family members know...etc...would indicate that the subject is clearly not ready for life changing surgery and has not shown the readiness to live full time as a woman. (I am using the m2f as my references but I am sure it is similar for a f2m)

If you are not seeking SRS then RLE is meaningless. If you are just living and changing your life then there is no requirement to change your name, be a woman all the time or have any surgeries or even be on hormones.

Now a discussion of what constitutes "full time" is something altogether different.

[STACY B]

Lady's Lady's,,Lady's,, R.L.E Thread---This is a Real Life Thread,, As in becoming a Real Live Woman ? Not one at the house,, Not one for some people to see and know, Not one on the week ends, Not one when you go out shopping or to the Movie, Show Nuff EVERYBODY that see's me, Works with me,, Is Kin to me and has ANY Interaction with me will No Way in the world no matter what I am wearing or doing or walking or talking, Driving and anything else will in any way NOT NO that I am Living my life from now on as a Female Thread ?

[PaulaQ]

How is it full time being a woman when you still have a male name? Its not. Its full time being transgender. That is okay, but not the same.
Being a woman and wanting to have corrective surgery why in the world would you have a male name by choice?

There are vast swaths of the state where I live, Texas, where you aren't getting a name / gender change no matter what medical procedures you have. Believe me, the decision not to have a name / gender marker change is often not a choice.

I live in Dallas county. Our local attorney is trans - she has several judges she knows who'll grant name and gender marker changes with a doctor's letter stating we've transitioned irrevocably medically. Generally that involves some period of time on HRT, and the prescribing doctor's opinion, as well as letter's from a gender therapist. I got my name / gender change no problem. I've spent more time in court on traffic citations.

One of my friends, in nearby Tarrant county has been in Transition about as long as I have. She had all the same letters, and the judge there denied the gender marker change, although he granted the name change.

Or there's a friend of mine, a member of our local trans support group, who is autistic, and can barely keep a job. She's been on HRT for a long time, and thoughts of SRS or breast augmentation are just dreams, and will likely NEVER happen for her. She takes an enormous amount of crap on the job having male IDs and a female presentation - she really does live as a woman. The $1000 it costs to get an attorney to do the name change for her may as well be $1,000,000. She isn't going to get it anytime soon, let's put it that way. She can manage to keep up with HRT, and she only managed to be able to start on HRT because of a scholarship my organization gave to her last year for HRT. This woman is totally screwed without a name change. She could save some on the cost of filing by doing it herself, but given her ability to deal with people - she has Asperger's syndrome - I think she'd likely fail. She CAN work, and she can take care of herself. She just sucks at dealing with people.

So my group awarded her a scholarship for a name / gender change this year. She's working on it now. Unfortunately, we can't do this for everyone.

It's neat and stuff for folks on the forum who live someplace that has sane laws for name / gender changes, and you are privileged and stuff to the point where you can avail yourself of them. Hey, that's my situation - and it is great. Not everyone is in that situation, though.

As for when people who do have an option choose to change ID, keep in mind that trying to balance life as a woman with not completely wrecking every single aspect of your life, in particular your employment, is pretty important. And while it might seem that someone could choose to never come out on the job, and thus never change their IDs, I generally tell people that this is an impractical idea if they are going to be on HRT, because after a time, they will simply no longer resemble their photo ID, and this will cause them a lot of problems, even if they have managed to avoid other problems by not changing them. So I think a certain amount of understanding is called for here. Most of the people I've observed who don't change their IDs as soon as they are able avoid this step out of fear of the consequences, without considering that once you start down this path, it's nearly impossible to avoid some type of consequences. The best one can do, in my view, is to try to manage the consequences in such a way as to minimize the damage you take in life.