Differing Opinions

[Nigella]

There have been a number of "discussions" on perspectives in the context of being transexual.

Lets look at this maybe a different way, there is a vast difference in peoples perspective on what makes a transexual, that is often bourne out by the discussions that take place, which gets backs up because one size does not fit all.

How about separating what appears to be the biggest issue, how does the description transitioner fit in with those who are taking an active step towards integrating fully with society in the gender they feel they are?

OMG another label, and yet more arguments to follow?

[stefan37]

I'm not going to get into how one identifies as TS. There are so many arguments from those that say they are TS, but live and function as males. It gets pointless.

Misty coined the term a couple years ago. Transitioner. Although another label but I think if we define the criteria that a transitioner is one that is socially, transitioning to live their lives as the opposite gender 24/7. Timelines aside. The objective is coming out to family, friends, work. Changing legal name and gender. Then the term had meaning.

I notice lots of posts end up with part timers, those wishing to live socially except for... (Fill in the blank). Get bent out of shape and feel as if their experience is either not credible or valid. While I'm sure some of it and I don't discredit their experience. It simply is not the same as those that do come out to the world. Change their legal name and gender. Go to work or seek employment as their target gender. As I read these various posts. It occurs to me that the biggest differentiator is work. Coming out at work is what separates us and our experience. The experience is different. Many of those on the part time fence say we are belittling or elitest. It is neither. Our experience is different. The daily challenges are different. We all have different levels of intensity. The means by which we find a place of balance to mitigate the GD to give us the best quality of life. But at the end of day what we have in common is we live our lives 24/7. Or they are actively pursuing that goal.

[Angela Campbell]

There is a difference between those who fully transition and those who don't. Call it whatever, there is much difference. No amount of part time gives the same experience.

"Transitioner" gives the indication that something is changing. Could be a change to part time, or a full transition. Every one does what they need. Neither is better or more prestigious. But the term doesn't specify full time, nor how far into fully living in the gender.

[LeaP]

I like "transitioner" and I like a clear definition for it. For me, that baseline is full-time living in the target gender, 24-7-366. I hate to even use the term "social transition" because some people take that as "full time except at work."

So, full-time. Full stop.

Not intending, not planning, not "in transition." I am engaged in all of these, but am nonetheless not a "transitioner" - not until I pull the pin (see current avatar).

The term is a great clarifier. Not of everything, but close enough between BS and fantasy.

[Tina_gm]

I am not going to attempt a label, but thought I would offer my observations from someone who internally feels more I am more than a CDer but not TS. There are many CD's who I feel have less internal gender issues, yet brave enough, smart enough or dumb enough and or possibly lucky enough to have found a place in life where they can CD freely as much and as far as they wish to. For me it is not about simply what I can do, but how it will affect my life and how much I would be benefitting or losing.


Anyway, My observation is that when it comes to TS and CD, or whether to be or not to be.... CDers tend to like to add female things to cover up the male, but not to get rid of it, and only for a period of time. Fantasy or whatever it is considered. But it is an act of accumulating, and covering up. When it comes to TS, I have noticed that there is usually the most joy or relief gained not by adding or covering up, but of ridding male markers as much as adding female ones, possibly even more. I would think that because a TS person is already female internally, so it is more of a need to shed the male to uncover the female and let her live freely. TS people don't have as much of a need to add feminine as they already are, and covering up is only a temporary fix until the male is shed altogether.

CD posts- Went shopping, got my nails done, wore a skirt and the wind blew woohoo. Here, it's I'm on blockers, got laser hair removal, laryngeal shave, FFS, and of course, SRS. All acts of removing of male markers to uncover what is felt underneath. So, that is my observation from my perspective.

[Nigella]

This thread is not about being TS, that term has been so misrepresented that it is so blurred, you need to squint to see it. This is about identifying those who are actively in the process of going over the bridge and burning the bloody thing to a pile of ashes.

As Emma has pointed out, how long before a "none" transitioner feels peeved because they don't fit the description and starts to call foul? Why can't I be a transitioner, I'm out to XYZ, but not at work, oh by the way I still want to be called Fred?

IMHO the two terms are very different, TS does not mean Transitioner, not that this is a move to create another label or sub group

[Tina_gm]

Sorry, I guess I am guilty of not getting the point of the thread here. Transitioner? I personally would be equating that to someone who is actively in the process of transitioning, so I am thinking that this person who is a transitioner is TS?? I think there can be, obviously before there was such a thing as transition those who were TS and not transitioning, so they would be non transitioners? Is the argument that they are not TS if they are non transitioners?

[Nigella]

NO, that is not what I am saying. I don't believe that has even been intimated at. Your statement above just goes to show how what appears to me to be a simple question/statement can be read by someone else and totally miss the point of the post, or put their own interpretation on it.

[Marcelle]

. . . As I read these various posts. It occurs to me that the biggest differentiator is work. Coming out at work is what separates us and our experience. The experience is different. Many of those on the part time fence say we are belittling or elitest. It is neither. Our experience is different. The daily challenges are different. We all have different levels of intensity. The means by which we find a place of balance to mitigate the GD to give us the best quality of life. But at the end of day what we have in common is we live our lives 24/7. Or they are actively pursuing that goal.

So this is where I get confused by all this. I am not in the process of transitioning in the sense that most here are transitioning. However, there are days I identify as a woman, wish to be seen as a woman and work/live as a woman. However there are days I still identify as a man, wish to be seen as a man and work/live as a man.

Cheers

Isha

[stefan37]

In some ways you are transitioning. Let's put that idea aside. You are exploring and finding your balance. Hopefully that's as far as you need to go. You're quest to live authentically can be in many ways harder than full transition. It's confusing to those you are close to and those you work with. If it's working for you that's all one can hope for. It may be enough or it may not be enough. GD is a condition where things can be OK until they are not. My comments were directed mainly to those that say they are full time except for .... Insert whatever.

You are also presenting at work how you identify any particular day. You are doing it from a position of rank and authority. There are repercussions from non compliance if subordinates would would not receive in ornate business. Canada is a bit more progressive than the US. Not sure what effect that may have. Even though it's confusing to you. You are experiencing an intensity of your GD where not expressing who you are can be debilitating in your daily life. Especially at work. It hasn't reached the level of intensity where you need to start burnings, change your name or gender. It's a tough place to be. If you can make it work for you. And for now it appears you are.

[Badtranny]

It is soooo interesting that Isha and LeaP seem to have a profound grasp of what the evil TS girls are always yapping about.

They have different goals, as stated but they are consistently on the side of authenticity.

Isha is a known nutcase because she has done the hardest part, which is come out at work, but apparently she liked that experience so much she wants to do it over and over. ;-)
Is she transitioning? I don't know but she certainly isn't abiding any secrets. She is right out there living her life however she feels it. No closet. To my mind that makes her every bit as legit as any transitioner.

LeaP on the other hand, is in the process of a transition which she is frantically trying to manage. I don't know if she's in the middle, or where her comfort zone is right now, but she is certainly able to convey my position on this issue pretty damn well. Again the reason why she 'gets it' is because she understands that transition absolutely requires complete observance. She is owning her situation and honestly dealing with it the best she can. Like Isha, everything she writes has the unmistakable ring of truth. Of authenticity. She in fact is proof that there is plenty of room for people that are in various stages of transition in the TS forum. All I know about Lea is what she has written in the public forum. They only thing she could do to ring the BS meter is to make comments about roads she has not yet traveled. If she does, those of us who have been there will notice that her accent isn't quite right.

Wherever you are on this journey, why not just be honest and upfront about it? Why try to claim steps not trodden? You are who you are, just be proud and be you.

[mechamoose]

Anyway, My observation is that when it comes to TS and CD, or whether to be or not to be.... CDers tend to like to add female things to cover up the male, but not to get rid of it, and only for a period of time. Fantasy or whatever it is considered. But it is an act of accumulating, and covering up. When it comes to TS, I have noticed that there is usually the most joy or relief gained not by adding or covering up, but of ridding male markers as much as adding female ones, possibly even more. I would think that because a TS person is already female internally, so it is more of a need to shed the male to uncover the female and let her live freely. TS people don't have as much of a need to add feminine as they already are, and covering up is only a temporary fix until the male is shed altogether.

CD posts- Went shopping, got my nails done, wore a skirt and the wind blew woohoo. Here, it's I'm on blockers, got laser hair removal, laryngeal shave, FFS, and of course, SRS. All acts of removing of male markers to uncover what is felt underneath. So, that is my observation from my perspective.

So, is it about shedding an unwanted image, or assuming a desired one? It may seem like a trivial difference, but it really isn't. One is an act of destruction, one is an act of discovery.

I'm never going to get my hackles up an anyone here over this. We all walk our own paths. I don't care (as I have said before) if you are Earnest Borgnine in a dress. Nobody should be making you feel bad for how you feel about how you fit in the world. You have every right to be out there as much as anyone else does.

Last year, I went to my first CD/TS event. I went in a wonderful dress, high heels, jewelry and pretty makeup along with a trimmed beard and no forms. When I walked into the event hall I saw a number of people do the 'whisper-whisper' thing to their mates. This isn't a High-School popularity contest. If we have the nerve to step out there and represent our segment of culture, then they/we deserve support. There is no litmus test.

- MM

[stefan37]

Hormones aside. They helped me mentally. Not so much physically. I didn't go full-time until A. Substantial facial hair removal. B. Legal name change and gender marker. The latter was absolutely the biggest event of my transition. It was validation to me and those around I was serious about transitioning. FFS had to wait another 18 months. Living full-time with male facial features was a valuable experience for me. I don't particularly recommend it. FFS introduced an entirely new level of comfort.

To answer Jorja's question. There are a couple factors I can identify. The physical procedures are a huge distraction to me. I'm scheduled for SRS. In Nov. I am about 10 grand short of funds. I still don't have preop clearances.

Living life as a tranny while challenging is easy. Integrating and being accepted as a woman much more challenging. My first year I looked like a male facially. It was hit or miss how I was gendered. It wasn't as bothersome to be gendered male. Even while wearing dresses and heels. Second year had facial reconstruction. Being gendered male was non existent for the must part. Casual encounters are one thing. The issue I have is being accepted as female. Yeah those I interact with are respectful, use the correct pronoun for the most part. But I'm treated differently by both men and women. It's like I'm an outsider. Once they figure you're Trans it changes the dynamic. I'm sure given 5 years down the road things will smooth out. I obviously still exude male clues that I will need to identify and correct. My ex has been pointing them out as they occur. Work can be problematic. I run my own Electrical/ Mechanical company. Voice in the office and field is a challenge. Especially when I get irritated.(I have a guy Mike working for me that is friends with Tom another Electrical Contractor I'm friends with. Tom and I were talking and he said that Mike told him that he inadvertently brought Steve back to the office. I thought it was pretty funny. But it illustrates the challenge. I've had a friend tell me I don't work like a girl. Well I don't know how to work like a girl. If something needs doing. I do it. I guess the way I carry myself and my hand coordination show 40+ years of experience.

[ReineD]

Nigella, I know that you and others who post here regularly know what I'm about to say but bear with me. I'm offering detail for the benefit of others who read this thread.

In discussion forums, words are the only thing we have to convey our ideas. So I find it helpful to examine the literal meanings.

Transsexual: Crossing (trans) from one sex to another. Sex is physical, therefore it involves physical modifications in order to appear as a woman (for MtFs): beard removal, hormones, and if they are not sufficient, BAs, FFS, and optionally SRS (we'll leave the debate about this for another thread). I've taken it that MtF TSs have always been women and it is a matter of changing the male sexual characteristics to match one's sense of gender identity to the degree that medical science will allow.

Transgender: Crossing from one gender to another. The use of this term by transsexuals has always baffled me, since I take it that TSs do not change their gender. They change their sex to match their gender.

Transitioner: For MtFs, the act of transitioning from male to female: physically, socially, legally. For the physical transition, not everyone needs or can get all the surgeries, people come in all shapes, sizes with varying physiognomies. But if the result at the end of the transition period is the appearance of a woman such that people stop seeing a man when looking at a TS, this is a complete physical transition. Full social transition has occurred when everyone in a TSs life knows her as a woman, they do not assume she is a man based on her presentation if they do not know that she is TS. If a TS does not tell some people she is transitioning during the period when the body is undergoing changes, then a full social transition has not occurred. And legal transition is self-explanatory.

A transition is a process with a beginning and an end. If at the end of a transition, barring personal prejudice, everyone (family, friends, coworkers, government agencies) takes the MtF TS to be a woman, then she is no longer a transitioner; she is a woman. If the end point is partial transition (HRT while still maintaining the ability to portray the self as a man on occasion which also implies a partial social transition), then we can't say that the process results in a transition from male to female, no matter what is the sense of internal gender ID.


Discussion:

I've observed in some of the threads here that partial-transitioners want to be recognized as the full-fledged women they feel they are by other members of the community. It makes sense they would want this, since they do need validation and they are depriving themselves of full recognition from the people in their lives by not fully transitioning physically, socially and legally. I think that everyone, full and partial transitioners, will agree that full and partial transition are not the same. I also think that everyone will agree that full and partial transition are both difficult. I hope that most people will not want to say that full transition is more difficult than partial transition, since the degree of difficulty depends on too many variables to list.

Contention occurs, I believe, when it comes to assigning or defining a partial-transitioner's gender identity. Some people feel that partial-transitioners (the people whose end point it is to partially transition) are not the women they feel they are because they have chosen to not fully transition. While other people are happy to accept a person's stated gender ID no matter the appearance, presentation and legal markers.

So the question as to whether gender is defined by how one feels vs. what one chooses to do about it is fourfold:

1. Does the degree of transition indicate a person's internal sense of gender identity? The partial-transitioner will say no because she feels she is female no matter what she does physically, socially, or legally.

2. Among people in the know, namely the members of this community, does the degree (the end point, not a point in the middle of the process) of transition indicate someone's internal sense of gender identity? I fear there will continue to be debates about this.

3. Among people not in the know, namely the people in the partial-transitioner's life who do not know that she does not identify as a man, does partial transition indicate her gender identity? Yes. The unknowing people will continue to think of the partial-transitioner as a male because obviously they have no indication that she is transitioning.

4. Among the selected few who do see the partial-transitioner present as a female and again barring personal prejudice,
A) Strangers will likely take it that she is transitoning. Acquaintances and people on the street do not know the differences among community members and they generally do not stop to analyze this in great detail.
B) Some of her friends and family will take it she is a woman or they will respect her stated gender identity,
C) While other friends and family will persist is seeing her as a man because they know that she has not fully transitioned.

[emma5410]

There is no point in coming up with a new label because it will be quickly appropriated or redefined until it becomes meaningless. Those who try to keep the meaning will be called elitist. You can try and explain that transitioner means socially transitioning but before you know it someone who is part time or have not changed their name will claim it. If you object then you will be accused of bullying. It is totally ridiculous.

As others have said, living 24/7 with your name changed and everybody in your life, plus random strangers, knowing is totally different than anything less. How do we know. Because we have been there and done it.

Many of us were part time in some sense before we went full time. We know what that is like. Those who are still part time do not know what it is to be full time. It is as simple as that.

[becky77]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.
By definition that person may relate to being a woman, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they fully identity with being a woman.

If you asked me what I thought a TS was, I would say it's someone born with a male body with a female identity or visa versa for FTM.

If you asked me what a Transitioner was, I would say it's someone that is going full-time as a different gender role. I guess I'm guilty of assuming that's always a binary change, I'm learning that's not always the case.
In society life is easier if you follow the binary route, Isha makes me rethink stuff these days, do we put too much emphasis on identity in regard to transition?

It's so hard not to try relate other people's stories to my own, it's easy to dismiss another person's experience because it doesn't match mine and that's wrong.

[arbon]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.

My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started transition. I always wished I was female but my mind had never made that click to knowing I was. I thought I was just a really sick guy, who really hated being a guy. And was very confused by it all.

[Jorja]

What kind of grey boring world would it be if we all agreed all the time?

Some if the disparity is location and language. You in the UK, me in the USA. You Say Tomahto, I Say Tomato. If we pass this saying around the world, by the time it gets back, it is something totally different like apples and oranges. Then there is the media aspect. They mix up everything they touch. We know that Transgender is different than Transsexual. They don't and have shortened the whole thing so that Transgender is an all inclusive term. This is where the confusion comes in. We now have thousands of news broadcasts and new shows spreading this new all inclusive term to millions of cis gender people who could really care less. So now, am I TG or TS? It is up to us to educate and straighten out what the media has screwed up.

[arbon]

How can we educate and straighten it out for them when we usually don't even agree?

[kimdl93]

Language is inherently murky and words often derive a large portion of their meaning from a larger context. Within the limited venue provided by this forum, we rarely,if ever, see the full context of individual lives. So, when one defines herself as transsexual or transgendered, the meaning is blurry...we can't know the full story of their lives. So it would seem with the term 'transitioner' as well. If we agree to the notion that someone is a transitioner only if they are 24/7, then are we excluding people who are taking meaningful steps...meaningful to them....along the path towards full transition?

To me transition is a process and not every transition follows the same sequence, includes the same steps, nor ends at exactly the same place. Isha certainly is making a 'transition', and I'm not sure even she would claim to know where and how her transition will be completed. Maybe some would think her not at all transitioner, based on a narrower perspective.

Anyway, perhaps one could differentiate between the transitioner and the transitioned, with the latter having reached a 24/7 existence.

[becky77]

It's totally ridiculous and I don't understand why people need to keep redefining stuff?

A guy is in training to be a mountaineer, if someone came along and said "I just walked over a hill, I must also be a mountaineer"!

We would just laugh at the silliness of it, yet somehow on here that's what happens all the time.

We know what Transition is, a Transitioner is someone doing Transition.

Where does partial transition come in?

You either do it or you don't, if it's partial it isn't fulfilled, if it isn't fulfilled how can it be transition?

[LeaP]

I think all experiences and viewpoints are valid. I think most of the arguments start from people who are unable to understand any experience other than their own as being valid, and from insisting that your way is the only right way. ...

... And the root of that is a lack of empathy. ...

... When you say that you're not full-time unless you've changed your name & gender, you're failing to understand those who are full-time and haven't changed their name & gender yet.

...But when you say that these people, many of whom are underprivileged, aren't full-time or in RLE because they have't changed their name & gender, you are failing to empathize with them and see their viewpoint. You're saying that because of whatever circumstance prevented them from changing name & gender, they are not full-time and RLE and their experience is not.

I also think a huge problem among TSes - ... we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

It is really sick that we trans people act as cruel as cis people. ...

All viewpoints are not valid, nor are they of equal worth. Experiences can't really be said to be valid per se. They simply are. The value of a viewpoint and the applicability of one person's experience to another both depend on a large number of factors. Merely recounting an experience and stating viewpoint is usually of little help. The only way to get at even applicability alone (forget credibility) is to DIG. Of course, not every likes to do that or is a critical thinker, but that's a different issue.

The charge of lacking empathy seems to arise more out of your frustration than the dynamics here. While accepting that dynamics between specific individuals varies, I find the most frequent targets of complaints here to be quite empathetic. Make of it what you will, but I think it's interesting in itself.

Questioning someone's thinking for not changing name or gender markers is very different from saying they are not full-time. I've read a LOT of the former, very little that smacks of the latter. Cites, please. As I recall, and I'm not going to go back and re-read multiple threads and responses, the questioning of transition/full-time status itself, as it relates to name/gender change, was not the status of a legal change, but the desire to remain male in some contexts. I understand that that is always positioned as need and not desire, but that in itself conflicts with a basic principle of transition. I have delayed my transition for certain reasons. My life, my decision. I'm not asking for anyone's view or permission. But I don't say that I'm (for example) doing RLE and am full-time but cross-dressing as a man every day either. Getting back to viewpoints, not ony are all viewpoints not valid, but some are mutually exclusive. That's especially true with the concept of RLE, which will have a specific meaning to the providers a person intends to use.

The underprivileged (and perhaps you are exaggerating with this term, BTW?) are another issue. But even here perspectives differ. As I've said before, someone might not be able to get hormones, FFS, SRS, hair, clothes - any of it, despite desire and need. I DO feel for these, but I also think they will compromise transition to a greater or lesser degree.

THANK GOD for the cautions and advice, often quite direct from those who have transitioned before me. I haven't experienced a single issue on which I hadn't had warning and advice in advance. That still begs the question of tone. The directness was necessary for me in order to break through the ingrained pattern of minimizing and deflecting. And also, indulging in fantasy scenarios. A lot of us have entertained the latter. I don't mean the fantasy of being transsexual, but of completely unrealistic solutions. SUCH AS part-time being a solution for those who really need to transition, hiding in some contexts, delays "until" that never resolve, being out to everyone except the hardest cases (typically family. Really? Think about that one.), etc. Some call them excuses. I think they are just a continuance of coping mechanisms that have kept identity buried and kept the illusion of control - hence crippling transition if continued. You don't break through and get past your old life, you effectively never transition. It's about that simple. (And f'in hard to do.)

[Brooke Smith]

My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started .

That's very interesting. I had been led to believe if you could not state with absolute certainty,"I am a woman",then you were not transexual.

If you were not transexual,there were better choices to be made then to transition.

I hope I have this right.

[Rianna Humble]

I had been led to believe if you could not state with absolute certainty,"I am a woman",then you were not transexual.

Not quite. For example that leaves out the Female to Male transsexuals. Where you may be getting confused is that if you can say with absolute certainty "I am not a woman" then you are not a Male to Female transsexual.

A large number of transitioners will have started with the certainty of who they are, but others will have started either not being sure or else knowing better who they are not than who they are.

If you were not transexual,there were better choices to be made then to transition.

Absolutely! Transition is a disaster if you are not transsexual. It is the wrong answer to the wrong question.

[sarahcsc]

The purpose of language is to facilitate communication and definitions are an integral part of that process.

We define the world around us and generally speaking, the simpler an object or concept, the less disagreement there is.

What I see here is a group of highly intellectual individuals discussing a concept that is not only complex but highly specific.

This tends to breed confusion and disagreements.

But most importantly, this creates duality.

There is nothing inherently wrong with duality because the universe exist by contrast. We need both object A and non-object A in order to recognize them both.

In the case of 'transitioning'/'transitioned'/transitioner', we need the both the concept and the non-concept in order to recognize both. But the moment we attempt to define what is, we are also inevitably defining what isn't.

The real problem is not just trying to get people to agree with the definition of "what is", but also the definition of "what isn't".

Some might feel validated with these definitions, but others won't. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about it.

But we hardly bog ourselves down with exhaustive definitions when conducting our daily affairs, why do we get to caught up with this? I mean... how red must red be to be considered red? How good must good be to be considered good? How human must a human be to be considered a human? Do we have to remind ourselves everyday that we are human?

I think most of us would agree that in 50 years time, for those of us who are still around, we would look back on today and laugh at how silly we were arguing about something so ephemeral as 'definitions'.

The forum is full of paradoxes where one could stress on 'definitions' one day but encourage 'authenticity' the next. The former requires some kind of consensus, while the latter emphasizes on individuality.

Confusing? You bet.

This debate will never end as long as somebody out there is yearning for public validation or avoiding public invalidation. Me included. So yeah... Go figure.

Love,
S