Differing Opinions

[Nigella]

There have been a number of "discussions" on perspectives in the context of being transexual.

Lets look at this maybe a different way, there is a vast difference in peoples perspective on what makes a transexual, that is often bourne out by the discussions that take place, which gets backs up because one size does not fit all.

How about separating what appears to be the biggest issue, how does the description transitioner fit in with those who are taking an active step towards integrating fully with society in the gender they feel they are?

OMG another label, and yet more arguments to follow?

[stefan37]

I'm not going to get into how one identifies as TS. There are so many arguments from those that say they are TS, but live and function as males. It gets pointless.

Misty coined the term a couple years ago. Transitioner. Although another label but I think if we define the criteria that a transitioner is one that is socially, transitioning to live their lives as the opposite gender 24/7. Timelines aside. The objective is coming out to family, friends, work. Changing legal name and gender. Then the term had meaning.

I notice lots of posts end up with part timers, those wishing to live socially except for... (Fill in the blank). Get bent out of shape and feel as if their experience is either not credible or valid. While I'm sure some of it and I don't discredit their experience. It simply is not the same as those that do come out to the world. Change their legal name and gender. Go to work or seek employment as their target gender. As I read these various posts. It occurs to me that the biggest differentiator is work. Coming out at work is what separates us and our experience. The experience is different. Many of those on the part time fence say we are belittling or elitest. It is neither. Our experience is different. The daily challenges are different. We all have different levels of intensity. The means by which we find a place of balance to mitigate the GD to give us the best quality of life. But at the end of day what we have in common is we live our lives 24/7. Or they are actively pursuing that goal.

[Angela Campbell]

There is a difference between those who fully transition and those who don't. Call it whatever, there is much difference. No amount of part time gives the same experience.

"Transitioner" gives the indication that something is changing. Could be a change to part time, or a full transition. Every one does what they need. Neither is better or more prestigious. But the term doesn't specify full time, nor how far into fully living in the gender.

[emma5410]

There is no point in coming up with a new label because it will be quickly appropriated or redefined until it becomes meaningless. Those who try to keep the meaning will be called elitist. You can try and explain that transitioner means socially transitioning but before you know it someone who is part time or have not changed their name will claim it. If you object then you will be accused of bullying. It is totally ridiculous.

As others have said, living 24/7 with your name changed and everybody in your life, plus random strangers, knowing is totally different than anything less. How do we know. Because we have been there and done it.

Many of us were part time in some sense before we went full time. We know what that is like. Those who are still part time do not know what it is to be full time. It is as simple as that.

[LeaP]

I like "transitioner" and I like a clear definition for it. For me, that baseline is full-time living in the target gender, 24-7-366. I hate to even use the term "social transition" because some people take that as "full time except at work."

So, full-time. Full stop.

Not intending, not planning, not "in transition." I am engaged in all of these, but am nonetheless not a "transitioner" - not until I pull the pin (see current avatar).

The term is a great clarifier. Not of everything, but close enough between BS and fantasy.

[Tina_gm]

I am not going to attempt a label, but thought I would offer my observations from someone who internally feels more I am more than a CDer but not TS. There are many CD's who I feel have less internal gender issues, yet brave enough, smart enough or dumb enough and or possibly lucky enough to have found a place in life where they can CD freely as much and as far as they wish to. For me it is not about simply what I can do, but how it will affect my life and how much I would be benefitting or losing.


Anyway, My observation is that when it comes to TS and CD, or whether to be or not to be.... CDers tend to like to add female things to cover up the male, but not to get rid of it, and only for a period of time. Fantasy or whatever it is considered. But it is an act of accumulating, and covering up. When it comes to TS, I have noticed that there is usually the most joy or relief gained not by adding or covering up, but of ridding male markers as much as adding female ones, possibly even more. I would think that because a TS person is already female internally, so it is more of a need to shed the male to uncover the female and let her live freely. TS people don't have as much of a need to add feminine as they already are, and covering up is only a temporary fix until the male is shed altogether.

CD posts- Went shopping, got my nails done, wore a skirt and the wind blew woohoo. Here, it's I'm on blockers, got laser hair removal, laryngeal shave, FFS, and of course, SRS. All acts of removing of male markers to uncover what is felt underneath. So, that is my observation from my perspective.

[Nigella]

This thread is not about being TS, that term has been so misrepresented that it is so blurred, you need to squint to see it. This is about identifying those who are actively in the process of going over the bridge and burning the bloody thing to a pile of ashes.

As Emma has pointed out, how long before a "none" transitioner feels peeved because they don't fit the description and starts to call foul? Why can't I be a transitioner, I'm out to XYZ, but not at work, oh by the way I still want to be called Fred?

IMHO the two terms are very different, TS does not mean Transitioner, not that this is a move to create another label or sub group

[Tina_gm]

Sorry, I guess I am guilty of not getting the point of the thread here. Transitioner? I personally would be equating that to someone who is actively in the process of transitioning, so I am thinking that this person who is a transitioner is TS?? I think there can be, obviously before there was such a thing as transition those who were TS and not transitioning, so they would be non transitioners? Is the argument that they are not TS if they are non transitioners?

[Nigella]

NO, that is not what I am saying. I don't believe that has even been intimated at. Your statement above just goes to show how what appears to me to be a simple question/statement can be read by someone else and totally miss the point of the post, or put their own interpretation on it.

[arbon]

A woman. I like that best. Probably opens a whole other can of worms on what means what though.

[becky77]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.
By definition that person may relate to being a woman, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they fully identity with being a woman.

If you asked me what I thought a TS was, I would say it's someone born with a male body with a female identity or visa versa for FTM.

If you asked me what a Transitioner was, I would say it's someone that is going full-time as a different gender role. I guess I'm guilty of assuming that's always a binary change, I'm learning that's not always the case.
In society life is easier if you follow the binary route, Isha makes me rethink stuff these days, do we put too much emphasis on identity in regard to transition?

It's so hard not to try relate other people's stories to my own, it's easy to dismiss another person's experience because it doesn't match mine and that's wrong.

[Michelle789]

I think all experiences and viewpoints are valid. I think most of the arguments start from people who are unable to understand any experience other than their own as being valid, and from insisting that your way is the only right way. No offense, but does this sound very familiar. It sounds a lot like a subject that we're not allowed to discuss on the forum. The subject of religion, and how people of one religion think that other religions are invalid. I'll shut up on religion now, and mods please feel free to delete the religion comment if it's breaking any rules.

But this is exactly what's happening. There are many different paths to transition, and many personal experiences we have. To say that my path is the only right way to do it and not be able to see the other viewpoints is the root of all our problems. And the root of that is a lack of empathy. The lack of the ability to truly place yourself in another person's shoes and feel their position.

Example was with the legal name change. I understand why you feel there is a need to change your name and gender ASAP. It might ease the dysphoria and make life more bearable if you change name & gender right away. But I feel that people on the other side don't understand why some of us don't change our name & gender right away, and are acting as if their way is the only correct path. When you say that you're not full-time unless you've changed your name & gender, you're failing to understand those who are full-time and haven't changed their name & gender yet.

You are entitled to feel that changing name & gender are important. And most of us who haven't done so have every intention of doing so eventually. Some of us will change name & gender eventually, and others will never have circumstances that prevent them from doing so. But when you say that these people, many of whom are underprivileged, aren't full-time or in RLE because they have't changed their name & gender, you are failing to empathize with them and see their viewpoint. You're saying that because of whatever circumstance prevented them from changing name & gender, they are not full-time and RLE and their experience is not.

I also think a huge problem among TSes - both on this forum and in real life - is this idea that because we have had to suffer and because the world is a cruel place, that we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

It is really sick that we trans people act as cruel as cis people. You know what, I'll honestly say that the behavior from within the community is the reason why people hate us. People hate us because too many transwomen are as cruel as the cis population can be. I'll say it bluntly. Right now I really am disgusted with all of humanity - with 99% of cis people and 99% of transwomen. We're no better than cis people. We're no better than religious fundamentalists that tell everyone that they're going to hell. I hate to even bring up religion, but it's the truth. I honestly feel that the attitudes I see from some people makes us like Evangelical or fundamentalist TSes. Well I identify as TS, but I'm not a fundamentalist TS. And it's not just what I see on the forum. I've seen this in the real life TS community as well.

[Kate T]

Doesn't even the "transitioner" label / description still imply a binary gender assumption? It is my reading that it is not so much the label / descriptor as the assumption that descriptor implies a binary gender and sex construction?

[arbon]

I also think a huge problem among TSes - both on this forum and in real life - is this idea that because we have had to suffer and because the world is a cruel place, that we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

People share their experience and opinion here. Would you rather them not? If you don't like what someone has to say is it their fault?

You know experiences here vary from those who had extremely difficult times to others who got through without much ordeal at all.

[becky77]

Doesn't even the "transitioner" label / description still imply a binary gender assumption? It is my reading that it is not so much the label / descriptor as the assumption that descriptor implies a binary gender and sex construction?

Very much so for a TS transitioner, transition is from one gender to the other in the eyes of the outside world (in a place of work for example).
It's not how you see yourself, it's how you now let others see you. It's very much a public thing, in essence if you have always identified as female/male your not the one changing, the change is in how others perceive you.

If you take someone that comes out to everyone as Transgender, lets say they identify as male but need female appearance to mitigate GD, that's still a transition.
It just not transition as we typically define it here, the vast majority of people that transition are binary TS as far as I know?

[Carlene]

It seems there should be a recognition of those who come out to the world and share the real life experience of gender born women. Having said that, albeit different, there are many in the trans community who know themselves to be women but can't cross the bridge as someone stated. I suppose the most accurate definition for us is to be transgender, and I for one am okay with this. I know who I am, and how I feel

In any event, is the accuracy of definition all that important? We are all sisters (loosely defined).

Have a wonderful day everyone,
Carlene

[I Am Paula]

All my TS friends are the most binary people I've ever met. They are their target gender, and accept no substitute.

[Nigella]

Some are so set in their ways that they cannot even see that this thread is not about being TS, but about identifying those TSs who transition in full view of the whole world, you DO NOT have to transition to be TS, crikey, just google "Define Transexual" to see that there are so many different definitions, that the term itself has become meaningless.

Maybe some should just stop and think about how their view is not the only view, it certainly seems that they want validation from others here. Just put the back of your hand on the desk as you log off, I'm sure we can validate your view, pink or black ink Madam?

[arbon]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.

My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started transition. I always wished I was female but my mind had never made that click to knowing I was. I thought I was just a really sick guy, who really hated being a guy. And was very confused by it all.

[Jorja]

What kind of grey boring world would it be if we all agreed all the time?

Some if the disparity is location and language. You in the UK, me in the USA. You Say Tomahto, I Say Tomato. If we pass this saying around the world, by the time it gets back, it is something totally different like apples and oranges. Then there is the media aspect. They mix up everything they touch. We know that Transgender is different than Transsexual. They don't and have shortened the whole thing so that Transgender is an all inclusive term. This is where the confusion comes in. We now have thousands of news broadcasts and new shows spreading this new all inclusive term to millions of cis gender people who could really care less. So now, am I TG or TS? It is up to us to educate and straighten out what the media has screwed up.

[arbon]

How can we educate and straighten it out for them when we usually don't even agree?

[LeaP]

I think all experiences and viewpoints are valid. I think most of the arguments start from people who are unable to understand any experience other than their own as being valid, and from insisting that your way is the only right way. ...

... And the root of that is a lack of empathy. ...

... When you say that you're not full-time unless you've changed your name & gender, you're failing to understand those who are full-time and haven't changed their name & gender yet.

...But when you say that these people, many of whom are underprivileged, aren't full-time or in RLE because they have't changed their name & gender, you are failing to empathize with them and see their viewpoint. You're saying that because of whatever circumstance prevented them from changing name & gender, they are not full-time and RLE and their experience is not.

I also think a huge problem among TSes - ... we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

It is really sick that we trans people act as cruel as cis people. ...

All viewpoints are not valid, nor are they of equal worth. Experiences can't really be said to be valid per se. They simply are. The value of a viewpoint and the applicability of one person's experience to another both depend on a large number of factors. Merely recounting an experience and stating viewpoint is usually of little help. The only way to get at even applicability alone (forget credibility) is to DIG. Of course, not every likes to do that or is a critical thinker, but that's a different issue.

The charge of lacking empathy seems to arise more out of your frustration than the dynamics here. While accepting that dynamics between specific individuals varies, I find the most frequent targets of complaints here to be quite empathetic. Make of it what you will, but I think it's interesting in itself.

Questioning someone's thinking for not changing name or gender markers is very different from saying they are not full-time. I've read a LOT of the former, very little that smacks of the latter. Cites, please. As I recall, and I'm not going to go back and re-read multiple threads and responses, the questioning of transition/full-time status itself, as it relates to name/gender change, was not the status of a legal change, but the desire to remain male in some contexts. I understand that that is always positioned as need and not desire, but that in itself conflicts with a basic principle of transition. I have delayed my transition for certain reasons. My life, my decision. I'm not asking for anyone's view or permission. But I don't say that I'm (for example) doing RLE and am full-time but cross-dressing as a man every day either. Getting back to viewpoints, not ony are all viewpoints not valid, but some are mutually exclusive. That's especially true with the concept of RLE, which will have a specific meaning to the providers a person intends to use.

The underprivileged (and perhaps you are exaggerating with this term, BTW?) are another issue. But even here perspectives differ. As I've said before, someone might not be able to get hormones, FFS, SRS, hair, clothes - any of it, despite desire and need. I DO feel for these, but I also think they will compromise transition to a greater or lesser degree.

THANK GOD for the cautions and advice, often quite direct from those who have transitioned before me. I haven't experienced a single issue on which I hadn't had warning and advice in advance. That still begs the question of tone. The directness was necessary for me in order to break through the ingrained pattern of minimizing and deflecting. And also, indulging in fantasy scenarios. A lot of us have entertained the latter. I don't mean the fantasy of being transsexual, but of completely unrealistic solutions. SUCH AS part-time being a solution for those who really need to transition, hiding in some contexts, delays "until" that never resolve, being out to everyone except the hardest cases (typically family. Really? Think about that one.), etc. Some call them excuses. I think they are just a continuance of coping mechanisms that have kept identity buried and kept the illusion of control - hence crippling transition if continued. You don't break through and get past your old life, you effectively never transition. It's about that simple. (And f'in hard to do.)

[Brooke Smith]

My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started .

That's very interesting. I had been led to believe if you could not state with absolute certainty,"I am a woman",then you were not transexual.

If you were not transexual,there were better choices to be made then to transition.

I hope I have this right.

[kimdl93]

Language is inherently murky and words often derive a large portion of their meaning from a larger context. Within the limited venue provided by this forum, we rarely,if ever, see the full context of individual lives. So, when one defines herself as transsexual or transgendered, the meaning is blurry...we can't know the full story of their lives. So it would seem with the term 'transitioner' as well. If we agree to the notion that someone is a transitioner only if they are 24/7, then are we excluding people who are taking meaningful steps...meaningful to them....along the path towards full transition?

To me transition is a process and not every transition follows the same sequence, includes the same steps, nor ends at exactly the same place. Isha certainly is making a 'transition', and I'm not sure even she would claim to know where and how her transition will be completed. Maybe some would think her not at all transitioner, based on a narrower perspective.

Anyway, perhaps one could differentiate between the transitioner and the transitioned, with the latter having reached a 24/7 existence.

[LeaP]

Either word is acceptable, Kim, just as we might use the word "traveler" for a person who likes to travel, despite not traveling at the moment. There are a lot of words with both noun and verb forms and usages. Interestingly, it doesn't cause semantic confusion elsewhere. One reason I like "transitioner" is because it is NOT the common usage in the community for someone in the pre full-time stages. We tend to use "in transition."