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Thread: Differing Opinions

  1. #51
    Member emma5410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendermutt View Post
    Becky, what if the guy who walks over a little 200 ft. hill has severe physical limitations from birth. Inside, he dreams of scaling mt. Everest at 20 thousand or whatever ft. it is, but the reality of his physical condition is that it took him just as much effort training and devotion to scale a little hill. Not little to him, and the accomplishment is no less for him. In his head, he is a mountaineer, and he would have scaled mt. Everest had he not been physically limited. Why can we not consider him to be a mountaineer?
    This is beyond ridiculous. Do you really think he would call himself a mountaineer and do you think anyone else would.

    You are using the same method so many part timers do when challenged. You use an example of someone who cannot do it to support those who choose not to for whatever reason

  2. #52
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    I've been a fan of ReineD for a loooong time so I'm thrilled to see her weigh in, BUT (as you can see it's a big but) I have one tiny little exception to her excellent post.

    RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made. It goes to motive, and I am personally not or never have questioned somebody's motives for transition. I'm on record as supporting TranSitioners even if they're doing it 'for the panties'. Now, granted I'm also on record as saying 'bless their hearts' if that is the case.

    No the only distinction those who have transitioned are trying to make is between part-time and full-time. I fully understand that someone may feel exactly like me and yet not transition for reasons that are entirely up to them. The fact is that I am not one of those people that NEEDED to do it. I WANTED to do it. So I did it. If you'll remember, I used to catch some guff from some of the old guard because I was openly rejecting the old narrative. I've been called 'not real' and everything else so I don't think I have any stake in the 'real TS' argument. (no true TS, for the Fallacy geeks)

    All I've ever wanted here is a culture of authenticity. This issue doesn't exist IRL (In Real Life) because it's self selecting. If you're FTEFW (Full Time Except For Work) then it will be obvious to me and anyone else. My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance. Most are too closeted to even hang out in public with us. I am four square in support of NOT transitioing, because it is a hell of a thing, but I am also here to support and advocate for those that decide to pull the pin and blow themselves into the daylight.

    The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners. There is nothing that the FTEFW crowd has experienced that we haven't also experienced. Transition is not about dressing up in secret. It is about living your whole life out loud and changing your legal presence. The TranSitioners have valuable experience with name changes, and coming out at work, and healthcare, and surgeries, and post transition marriages and dating, etc etc. Those looking for answers about real transitions can get hard earned information from people who have actually got skin in the game. For whatever reason, the TS gals have put it all on the line. We've committed and we've all learned hard lessons. Yes not everybody has the ability to come out and live the life that they want to live, but that doesn't change anything. I don't have the ability to be a model, but I feel really pretty so why don't they accept me?

    Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
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  3. #53
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
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  4. #54
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    emma, there is no "method" I am using whatsoever to validate anyone. I am merely showing what I see as the paradox of TS women who are self identifying as women, even though physically/genetically they are not women. Life circumstances be damned right.... what if along the way of discovering they are women internally, but had a wife and kids.... and some horrific tragedy happened to a member of their family, and took all their resources, finances, time, everything dealing with it. So, for a purpose greater than their own, they opt not to transition. Something of greater importance than their being physically female for them, but internally they are still female.


    TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscience . How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn
    btw... ts women that transition for real don't always get validated either...one thing that makes our validation much harder is the tg umbrella and all the prevarication about tg/ts and transition...
    Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 08-31-2015 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Multiposts merged THIS time
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  5. #55
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Fine they identify as woman and TS. The difference is their life experience is living as a male. They would have little to no value giving their life experience to those that are needing to live as a female 24/7. Same with FTEW. They live part of their life as female and part as male. Again limited experience for those needing to fully transition and live 24/7.
    That is the issue. It's not that hard. Ok you identify as female. Self identify as TS. Live as a male. I'm finding my second year full-time as more challenging than my first. This with 3 years HRT. 10 months post facial reconstruction. And 2 years full-time. Legal name & gender change. Out to all. Socially and professionally.

    Regarding your comment to Kaitlyn's quote. We transition to live our lives as female. That would also include having that identity reflected back. Those that may not have the funds for surgeries or are genetically challenged may not be validated. The problem with the TG label is we are not regarded as woman. But gender fluid individuals.
    Last edited by stefan37; 08-31-2015 at 10:22 AM.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendermutt View Post

    TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscious. How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?
    Thats not what it is about though. There are people here who have not transitioned are not full time but still accepted as women by us here. At least speaking for myself anyway. But in the world outside are still encased by the male identity until they get further along. Like one person here I have skyped with and even though she was dressed in mens cloths and all I still only thought of her as "her". Some in the real world too who I know are going to get their lives right. We will accept and do accept what is on the inside - thats why they are driven to transition, that is why we try to help them along. But not everyone is really "her" on the inside either - I have met some form this forum who most definitely were not "hers" - one was downright creepy that I picked up in another town to take them to a support group in yet another town - 6 hours in my car with him and it really was just a bit of fantasy for him.

    But even though they may really be women on the inside they are still working out how to be her to the rest of the world.

  7. #57
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
    Why not? Isn't the recent transgender movement all about acceptance? For someone who wishes accepted as they present? Go out in the world presenting as a woman and be accepted as one?

    This is bold, but I think this is what is got some feathers ruffled here. Many here who are or have transitioned have gone through every hell imaginable. Like the suffragette movement to where now women go vote without giving it a second thought. For many in here it seems, you aren't real until you pull the pin, and unleash the transtutonium bomb and wipe out all existing life you had and cause a mad swath of destruction and hardship on yourself and all those around you. Only then are you to be considered real. Times are changing, and while that has been the case, it soon won't be. Someday, not all that long from now, someone will be able to go out in the world, present as they wish, and be accepted as such, and we will have you here who went through hell, to thank for it.
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  8. #58
    Member Kimberly Kael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners.
    I understand what you're getting at, but the literal phrasing seems unnecessarily dismissive. The lived experience of someone presenting as female, even part time, in another part of the world may well be of interest. Or someone in another line of work where there are unique challenges to consider when contemplating transition. Any number of life experiences aren't necessarily universal.

    Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
    This is the part that strikes me as completely reasonable. Reading the forum description it would seem that yesterday's thread derailment by part-timers was explicitly against the intent of the forum. I'm in complete agreement that some authenticity is a reasonable expectation, as is respect for the fact that this forum is about our lives, not our hobby. If I want to hear about a night on the town, or getting pulled over with mismatched identification, or any number of other experiences then I don't have to look far to find those threads on the site. I do want a place I can interact with my peers. That seems like a legitimate request.
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  9. #59
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendermutt View Post
    Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....
    I should be clear about a couple things that came up in other posts after mine

    i'm talking about validation that you have transitioned and live as a woman... i'm talking about the incoming external validation that syncs with the totally internal validation that makes for the most successful transitioned life..

    as to Melissa's comment, I can see how it comes off but here is what I hear..

    the PERMANENCE of transition is a key to making it what it is.... without permanence there is no transition....that commitment to your nature is what it is all about...my own experience is that transition was nothing like what I thought and I only found out because it became permanent...

    the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?

    folks that don't live this cannot relate to this... why is it difficult to accept that I experienced transition and others have not??
    why can people not take my word for it when I've done it and they haven't?? it does not invalidate their experience, it invalidates MINE

    and then this..

    ts people that don't transition ARE women...regardless of HRT, penis, etc......a ts woman is and was always a woman...
    how many more times are we going to get "accused" of saying otherwise???

    and then this..
    Ts people that don't transition have not transitioned... seems like "duh!!!" but literally that's what we are getting caught up in..

    in my own mind, I feel we all end up reverting to their nature... attempts to fight will get harder and harder...the older you get, the worse it gets...anybody have the opposite experience?? it gets easier??

    and if the fight does not get hard, sorry but I have a hard time believing you are a woman...if dressing at night or a touch of HRT works for you, in that case I believe you are gender fluid and finding your own nature... it has NOTHING to do with transition in this case...and given how hard I fought to be me, I don't see why they wouldn't fight just as hard to be them...why even bring transsexuals into it at all??

    the worst thing is I truly feel for people struggling with gender dysphoria... the answer is live your nature....fully and permanently... otherwise suffer...and suffer worse and worse over time
    Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 08-31-2015 at 10:59 AM.

  10. #60
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Where does partial transition come in?
    Transition is change, and there are people who modify their bodies through HRT. There has been a transition of sorts, in the literal sense of the word, from fully male to no longer fully male even if they don't have BA, FFS ... and we won't get into whether SRS is required to consider someone fully transitioned since opinions vary widely on the subject. Likely HRT will not be enough for most people to appear as a female, but it has been for a few people, even those who live full time, right?

    Also, since full transition is a three part process (physical, full-social, legal), anything short of this then must be considered partial? If you don't like to use the term "partial transition" to define the changes to the body and to part of a person's social/family and/or work life, then what term might be more appropriate, since there has been a physical and a social change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made.
    I know. When I first became involved here years ago, it seemed the question was more black and white than it is now. There didn't seem to be so many people who wanted to be considered a woman in some circles but not others and I don't know whether this trend will continue and increase.

    So I opened this discussion to new ideas, keeping in mind this is only discussion and not final proclamations. lol.

    My opinion: I think that a full transition results in having changed from male to female (for MtF). A person who has fully transitioned obviously is considered a woman in every sense of the word, save for chromosomes and biological functions but these things are unseen. But a partial transition does not change a person, in the eyes of the world, from a male to a female. They are changed, in the eyes of the world, from fully male to somewhere in between male and female, even if the way they are seen (somewhere in the middle) is at odds with who they feel they are internally (fully female). But that's what happens when people don't make commitments to full transition.

    Edit - in the past before there was HRT and the possibility of surgeries, among native Americans for example, what were the Two-Spirits considered - male, female, or a combination of both, even if they did appear as women to the maximum level possible at that time? And were there Two-Spirits who hunted with the other males and who wore male hunting gear when doing so, but who dressed as women at camp? If so, would they have been considered the same as the Two-Spirits who always wore female clothes? I don't know the answer, but I suspect that no Two-Spirits were considered male in the same sense as the other males in the tribe.
    Last edited by ReineD; 08-31-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ... the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?
    Makes perfect sense to me hence the reason why I would never claim to be transitioning or partial transitioning. I am still trying to figure things out by pushing boundaries to find my comfort zone and determine where I will land . . . consider me a work in progress.

    Cheers

    Isha

  12. #62
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    reine what you are hitting on is external vs internal.... and internal identity vs action and how that plays out
    its very very difficult to talk about without crossing somebody's internal line..its not so hard to make distinctions related to action..



    isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift

    one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
    can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??

    do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Transition is change, and there are people who modify their bodies through HRT. There has been a transition of sorts, in the literal sense of the word, from fully male to no longer fully male even if they don't have BA, FFS ... and we won't get into whether SRS is required to consider someone fully transitioned since opinions vary widely on the subject. Likely HRT will not be enough for most people to appear as a female, but it has been for a few people, even those who live full time, right?

    Also, since full transition is a three part process (physical, full-social, legal), anything short of this then must be considered partial? If you don't like to use the term "partial transition" to define the changes to the body and to part of a person's social/family and/or work life, then what term might be more appropriate, since there has been a physical and a social change.
    Hi Reine

    Are you confusing the word Transition as it is in the dictionary, with Transition as it is known medically for trans people?

    Transition is a known process, when I go to my gender clinic and we talk of transition it is with an understanding that we are using the same language, I don't go in there and decide on my own definition and everyone is confused?

    Nearly all the people that argue what Transition means are not actually doing it, they are not going through stuff like RLE etc. We have had several threads about RLE and it turns out those who argue the meaning of RLE, have no intention of surgery and haven't looked into what it involved.
    So what we have are people that don't know what they are talking about being very vocal.

    Yes, Transition as a word means change, but it isn't just a word in the TS community, especially to TS people seeking medical help.

    So to try not confuse people I will use an example.

    If someone is going to be a Doctor, before they achieve their end goal we would say they are training to be a Doctor.
    If they get to a point where they aren't able or don't want to continue, we don't say they are a partial Doctor, you either are a Doctor or your not.
    Also if someone is training to be a Nurse, we don't say "Well they both do medical studies, we will call the nurse a partial Doctor".

  14. #64
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Reine, further to Becky's excellent comments, the dictionary definition of transition talks of changing from one state or condition to another, it is not the midway point.

    Moreover in Transsexual terms Transition has a defined start point and a defined end point (either Male to Female or Female to Male). It does not encompass a "transition" from Male to Male with a little bit of female or from Female to Female with a little bit of male.

    What precise procedures are necessary to accomplish that transition has no bearing whatever on the start and end points.

    The problem that we see increasingly is that those who come here looking for guidance on what transition may mean for their lives are being counseled by people who have no intention of transitioning from Male to Female (or from Female to Male) but who accuse us of elitism when we explain the difference.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 08-31-2015 at 01:42 PM.
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    Becky and Rianna, I know that a medical transition involves changes to the male birth body and living as a female full time. But still some people consider that SRS is necessary for it to be considered transition, while others consider that SRS is not necessary, so even then I'm not sure if there is an agreement among TSs of how a medical (physical) transition is defined exactly. I think in this forum, because we have members who have been living as female for years and who have not had SRS, it is generally accepted they have transitioned even without SRS provided they live full time as women.

    That aside, what I'm saying is, how do we define a different segment of people and what they do, who are no longer male in the sense that people understand males to be, if they are reducing their testosterone and are increasing their estrogen levels to the point where their male sexual functioning is impacted, their skin softens, they experience fat distribution, and they begin to develop breasts, even if they only appear as women (with the help of major gender cues like clothing) outside of work. Are they male in the same way as other males who don't do this? They are not seen as women by the people to whom they present male and this is their cross to bear. But they are not seen as males in the purest sense either by the people who do see them presenting as women and who do know they are on HRT. So what are they. There has been a change from male to somewhere between male and female, so what do we call that change. I came up with a term "partial transition" but if there is a better term then what is it. Do we need some recognition that some people are making changes to their bodies and to the way that many (even if not all) people know them, even if it is not to the same degree as full timers, or do we continue to refer to them as males?

    I'm just asking the question and bringing this forward for discussion.

    Admittedly in the outside world among people who are not aware of the full spectrum, there is nothing other than male or female. There is no "in-between". I was wondering how the people in this section of the forum see it, which is what I think Nigella was asking as well. If people in this section of the forum are not willing to consider a state of physical characteristics and social presentation that is other than full-on and full time male or female (whether the person is cis or TS), then I'm afraid there will continue to be debates about the validity of the people who are, in fact, in between?
    Reine

  16. #66
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    I wouldn't think "partial transition" works, more like incomplete transition.

    Transition is a process that can take a long time. You can start and never complete it or you can complete it. If the end goal is to be partial it seems it shouldn't be considered the same thing.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Campbell View Post
    If the end goal is to be partial it seems it shouldn't be considered the same thing.
    I agree, full transition is not the same as a not-full transition and they should not both be called just "transition", hence my attempt to differentiate between the two. But, they are indeed both processes that take, in the case of MtFs, a male body from one state to another (providing it is more than just clothes and there are indeed body modifications such as HRT or more) even if one desired end result is to present as female to everyone, and the other is to present as a female only to some people.

    Separately from that is the way that people identify and this is where it gets sticky. Both the full-time transitioners and the people who go from male to in-between male and female (depending on what body parts have changed ... do they have breasts that can be hidden, do they continue to experience male sexual functioning to appease their marriage) all identify as women (except for Isha ). So do we negate the changes that the non-full-time transitioners experience and continue to call them male? Do we call them something in between male and female, or do we acknowledge they feel they are female?

    Again, these are just questions.
    Reine

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    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Reading this, wow... It seems easy. first if you have done it, you are transsexual. If you have not done it and are transitioning, Then that is where you are and I'm sure there is plenty in the transition stage. Some may never get an operation to change fully into a woman. But any who lives full time as a female certainly is one. The most feminine women I ever met was TG she males. Now, In sex if they are so feminine, a man would call them fem girls. Been there and have done that. They treat men far better than women in sex typically. I'm sure there are quite a few really good women. But I have to agree with Renee that partially completed transitional that they are no longer male aka the reference to she-males. Now many women like this are true women even though they did not do the operation. I saw where a man went to Thailand and brought home a women that was preop. He has a site for other men to find them. Why, he says they all all women and have the sex drive of a boy. That is what he wanted. So, if a large group of people accept a Transvestite across this land. Any who went down the road to transition is certainly a male or female that wants to be the other sex and many get stuck in the middle. Or in any case partially complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    . . . isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift

    one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
    can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??

    do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?
    Hi Kaitlyn,

    WRT to validation, it is an oddity right now. When I identify as a woman I will admit that people using proper gender pronouns feels good . . . indeed feels right. But I am a pragmatist as I know people see a male (one look at my avatar confirms that) so the validation if you can call it that is more likely people being kind. Hence the reason I don't get too upset when people stumble or address me as "he" vice "she" or "Sir" vice "Ma'am".

    The gender fluid feeling . . . hmmm . . . good question and one I have to answer all the time and one I have spent quite a few therapy sessions trying to figure out. It is truly hard to explain as the GD I experience can be extreme to light . It is not transitory in the sense it rushes in at zero dark thirty then wanes around 4PM, sputters and fizzles out until the next week. It is more a build up until I cannot control the feeling at which point I find myself identifying as a woman.

    By the GD being light I mean it is manageable in that to dress and present as a man in all aspects of life (work, socializing, and whatnot) is relatively easy to do. However, to answer your question, there is invested emotional effort to present male during these lull periods but it more a sense of "missing" and to some degree "waiting" for the next flip (sort to speak). Now when the GD is extreme I find myself emotionally drained and the thought of presenting as a man is difficult. Point in case, last Monday I was getting ready to go to work and when I went to put on my male street clothes (I never wear a uniform to and from work) I froze and had a panic attack . . . most likely the worst panic attack I have had since running down this gender fluid pathway . . . indeed given my age, I seriously thought I was having a heart attack. I could not bear the thought of going to work or living my day as a man because I did not feel like a man at that point. Now before anyone goes off on a "split personality" tangent I was fully cognizant of my personality at this time, no memory loss or black out periods so no dissociative identity disorder here. I just knew in my heart of hearts I was a woman and had to present as such. When I get like this there is no crossover in that I switch out to male for brief periods of time to deal with things, I am a woman in all aspects of my life and stay so until the next lull period. For example, I love to workout and do so at the end of the workday . . . this past week I did so as a woman which meant wearing women's workout gear and doing what I normally do as a guy in a gym full of mainly guys.

    The above lasted the whole week and while I am currently presenting male and have been since Saturday, I can still feel "her" behind my eyes. Funny thing is when I am presenting as a woman, I do not feel "him" the same way. I am not sure if I have answered your question(s) well enough to understand but I can say when the GD is extreme to not act on it would be akin to not drinking water if I were dying of thirst. However on some days, I am only a little thirsty and can possibly go without water for longer periods of time, but I still need to drink.

    Cheers

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 08-31-2015 at 09:32 PM.

  20. #70
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    Isha
    Please stop commenting about my beautiful friend Isha's appearance! You are a beautiful person and nothing screams male when I see your avatar. Yes we could all look better but I see a wonderful feminine being. I hope you will give yourself permission to be you!
    Suzanne

  21. #71
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    yeah, and furthermore Isha is packing a set that frankly defies comprehension. I know you ain't tuckin' honey. :-)

    If there is a better example of someone who is not transitioning yet has earned the respect of the elitist TS gals, I'd like to meet her or him.

    Isha is authentic, and that's all we really care about isn't it? She is straight up honest about who she is and the journey she is on. No redefining of terms will be necessary thanks.

    Of course in light of recent events, I don't know if I believe anything anymore. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
    Melissa Hobbes
    www.badtranny.com

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    ... So do we negate the changes that the non-full-time transitioners experience and continue to call them male? Do we call them something in between male and female, or do we acknowledge they feel they are female?

    Again, these are just questions.
    As with so many other things, it only matters where it matters. How my identity is regarded or perceived, what I'm called, the pronouns and all the rest, along with any sensitivity I have about them, vary by circumstance. In many where I present male, I use my given name and male pronouns, even when people know I'm trans. Examples include my doctor (trans herself) and electrologist. My therapist tends to use both, unless I show up for a session dressed (rare, as I have mostly come directly from work).

    Where I couldn't care less is where credibility doesn't matter. Including with almost everyone here. If I know you, it matters to me. If I don't, feel free to call me whatever you want. I really don't care and it doesn't change anything as far as what I'm doing.

    I *am* sensitive, and self-conscious when I present male to trans friends. That includes the Skype conversation Theresa mentioned. It includes another with Kaitlyn on an occasion where Anne and I met up. Anne was Near Full Time (NFT™) at that point, I was, once again, meeting after work. BUT, my sensitivity was only with Kaitlyn - Anne and I have met over the last 2-3 years ... both mostly presenting male. Kathryn has seen me both ways and I can be self-conscious with her, too.

    Because *I* actually believe what you do is arguably more important than what you think, my self-consciousness is rooted in mixed feelings about my own credibilty (i.e., to myself)! But that's all on me. There are reasons for my path and I can live with both the external perceptions and the self-doubt that creeps in on occasion.

    I dont get worked up about the identity question here when it comes to people with whom I haven't connected in the real world because the contention on this isn't really over identity. It's related to a point of forum and internet etiquette! Mostly, the courtesy is extended. Join as Babette and you will be called "she" and "Babette." I.e., you are actually being *treated* as if you were female, whether you are or not. The conversations on identity that arise from topics like full and part-time living don't change the courtesy, they are philosophical points. I understand why someone might not like another's position because they see it as a personal reflection, but it's actually not. These are theoretical and philosophical points. Views that can - and do - come down differently in individual cases in real life. A person may well strongly argue the idea that FTEFW isn't transition and, that as a permanent arrangement, reflects on identity. The same person might well acknowledge the identity in real life!

    It doesn't make make sense to to extend identity courtesy in a discussion where the question of identity is the point. It's not only irrelevant, but if so extended, merely adds unnecessary verbiage. "Babette: I'm FTEFW, will never have FFS, take hormones, or have SRS, and always will be just like this, and I'm a woman! ... Edna: You're a woman, all-righty, but my view is that ..."

    Really? Are people SO sensitive to a theoretical point that they need this validation from someone on the internet? Whom they typically don't know?
    Last edited by LeaP; 09-01-2015 at 10:36 AM.
    Lea

  23. #73
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    Really? Are people SO sensitive to a theoretical point that they need this validation from someone on the internet? Whom they typically don't know?
    I don't know if the the arguments about identity are due to personal sensitivity or if they are philosophical disagreements. But I initially thought if both sides could agree on the following three points, there might be fewer circular arguments.

    1. Full time transition is not the same as someone who has begun a physical transition but whose end point is not full time.
    2. Both camps' gender identities might still be the same.
    3. If there is agreement on the above, then use a term other than just "transition" to acknowledge the change from male to "somewhere in between male and female", whether people use full-time transition vs. partial transition, or something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    Because *I* actually believe what you do is arguably more important than what you think, my self-consciousness is rooted in mixed feelings about my own credibilty (i.e., to myself)! But that's all on me. There are reasons for my path and I can live with both the external perceptions and the self-doubt that creeps in on occasion.
    I agree with you. But then it's difficult to know the motives for not going full time. Is it for convenience to not deal with internalized transphobia, to appease a marriage, to preserve male sexual functioning, or is it to continue a stream of income for survival. Does the motive mask a reluctance to give up a male gender role which brings into question the innate gender identity, or is the motive a question of financial survival.

    So maybe it is not possible to agree on terms, since the terms depend on the motives. And if the motive to not transition full time is an underlying desire to preserve a male gender role, then I can see why someone might be sensitive since this would cause internal conflict.

    Edit - Years ago there were equally contentious arguments here between full time TSs, on the question of SRS. Did the reason to not choose SRS (except for people who could not afford it or who had medical issues preventing surgery) mask an underlying desire to preserve male sexual functioning, and if so, could they claim a female gender identity. In other words, did full transition necessarily include SRS. I don't know what the consensus among TSs is now; if it is generally accepted that the decision to not have SRS if the motive is to continue having sex as a male, does not affect a person's gender identity as a female.
    Last edited by ReineD; 09-01-2015 at 12:50 PM.
    Reine

  24. #74
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
    Not on day one, or ten or one-hundred. But if you/we do this enough, it will cease to raise eyebrows.

    It is a socialization exercise, really.

    'We' as a species have a hard time with the strange and unknown. The only way past that is exposure. I taught my daughter how to deal with confrontations that way, and my son how to deal with wasps & bees. Most of it is fear of the unknown.

    - MM
    - Madame Moose - on my way to Anne
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." -- Popeye the Sailor
    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" - Hillel the Elder

  25. #75
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    Reine, I think "transition" is a term that best refers to people who are both cross-sex identified ("transsexual," as generally used here), and go full-time (at a minimum). I don't mind any of the grammatical senses used, as long as they are coherent in meaning, i.e., they describe the same thing or intention. I use "I am transitioning" all the time, and with a few quizzical exceptions - here - everyone understands *exactly* what that means.

    Without getting into the morass of the underlying discussion, I accept that not all cross-sex identified people transition. So your gender identity point is theoretically valid. This is a transsexual forum, however, and most of the noise, as I see it, is coming from gender variant people of various types and identities. These have their own needs and solutions. Maybe they do need their own term. These people are often a better fit here than to the CD forum, though the regularity of the conflict makes me wonder. Maybe their concerns would be better addressed in a gender-variant forum rather than splitting the transsexual forum along transitioner and non-transitioner lines.
    Lea

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