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Thread: Differing Opinions

  1. #76
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Thanks for your thoughts, Lea (and everyone else).
    Reine

  2. #77
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    Lea, I agree that a forum for gender variant individuals would give them a place for free flow of discussion that doesn't conflict with the needs of the binary transitioners. But when I look at the transmasculine forum, I see that it is mainly inactive. Would a gender variant forum stand a chance of regular discussion? It is a tough one as it obviously isn't a clean fit. There are similarities and there are definitely differences.

  3. #78
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    As a long time member and an out [for 11 years] "gender fluid" TG identifying person,I am curious as to who some of you feel is such a problem here on this forum....We all are on the same playground,just chose different friends to play with. I can tell you honestly that living an open,gender fluid life is far more challenging for the "masses" to accept. Those that get it are joined by those that learn from you. In the end ,we are a very effective "teaching tool"...

  4. #79
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    It's not a particular person Rogina, it's just a sort of movement towards a very relaxed interpretation of transition that some of us would like to see nipped in the bud.

    The value of this forum (in my opinion) is largely derived from the frank and honest information from the people that have actually transitioned. Some of us here want to retain the integrity of words like Transition and Full-time and some others want to keep stretching the meaning of long held terms until pretty much everyone is considered to be transitioning even though they have no intention of even changing their name.

    It's gotten to the point that people get on HRT and start giving transition advice. I can't speak for the other girls, but my concern isn't for the established gals. It's for the new gals (or dudes) who don't know the difference. I know the Safe Haven is allegedly for transitioners but I'm told that there are part time people in there as well and besides that wouldn't help the people who have questions anyway.

    I would personally like to see the TS group be a closet free zone, but instead we have what I would consider to be way too much discussion about 'no fly zones' and 'male mode'. Most of us here consider 'coming out' to be an integral part of the process and lately there is a contingent who would argue that coming out is optional. Shoot we even had a few gals recently trying to redefine a term as old as RLE. Obviously it's just semantics for the familiar, but there are a LOT of people who read and never post. These people have concerns and I really like the idea that if they stumble onto this site (like I did) they will at least find some clarity.
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  5. #80
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    Clarity, good luck with that.

    This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
    And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.

    Too often we have some TG members (not TS) pop in here because they are particularly 'in the zone' and wonder about their feelings, that's great come in and we will chat.
    But instead they end up trying to redefine our necessary medical words (medical as in mental not surgery, gender therapists etc), because they need to validate their feelings, sure validate them but don't twist things.
    Then those people stir up the natives, realise this TS/full-time stuff is serious, then disappear back to the CD forum.

    It's constant and it's tiring, how long will it be before the TS members are so sick of their conversations being constantly aggravated that they just leave.

    I'm fulltime, I'm on hormones, I have transitioned, I'm awaiting a consultation with a surgeon for SRS.
    Someone that isn't full-time, May have tinkered with HRT, has no intention of transition and hasn't a clue about the surgery will on a weekly basis try tell me/us how it is and why I'm wrong, it's really disrespectful and pretty arrogant.

    I go to a gender specialist that discusses my transition, an expert in the field, I come on here and someone not involved in the process attempts to correct me and what they are really saying is they know better that these gender specialists.

    So many TS members have said what Transition is and its so very simple. It's the word the experts in the field use to describe the process from one gender to the other.
    Male to female or female to male. That's it, it's not about surgery, it's not about hormones, it's just was one gender now another.
    There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.

    Lets break those down.
    Medical transition, is only surgery it's not a transition it's just surgery. We don't say someone that has had a BA has transitioned. If you want to convince me that a guy has surgery and is now a guy with a vagina and that's transition, then your nuts.

    Social and legal transition are just parts of transition they mean nothing on their own, someone changes their name to Shirley but still lives as a man, how can any sane person think that is transition, it's just a name change.

    Change your name and live full-time as the opposite gender to birth, congrats you have transitioned. HRT, surgery are just tools.

    Before anyone starts to think I'm being exclusive then yes you are right I am. I'm suffering from a mental condition that has really screwed up my life, I couldn't take it anymore so I went to get help, I've been going through treatment for this condition and I've taken a huge gamble, put my house, work, family, friends on the line to treat my illness. How dare someone come and belittle my treatment plan by making up their own crap when they have absolutely no idea.
    I think some are so wrapped up with themselves, they forget we transitioners are actually really suffering or have suffered mentally, it's not a game or some ideal and that's why it can get so heated on here.

    Transition (or RLE) is not some fancy word you can manipulate to suit your needs, it has a very specific meaning to help guide seriously ill people, people that maybe in danger of suicide who may try here to find answers and instead find even more confusion.

    Almost everyone that has or is transitioning agrees on its use, those who want to change the meaning are not transitioning. What does that tell you?

    This is so exhausting, there are plenty of non-TS or part timers here who regularly contribute and their input is welcome, I PM part timers I have no issue with it and I certainly don't belittle what you they go through.
    This is not about them and us, it's about people getting their facts wrong and then insisting they are right when they haven't done their homework.

  6. #81
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Clarity, good luck with that.

    This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
    And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.
    It isn't always clear which forum we are on when doing responses. I'm betting many just click 'New Posts' and go on from there.

    You have (at the very least) my respect. I wish I could be like you girls, I wish I even had the option.

    Please don't invalidate me because I look like a truck driver. I *feel* female, I just need a place where that is ok. I have taste, fashion sense, love being pretty and HATE man-bags.

    I get that the folks here who are/will be transitioning have a very different path than I do. I *love* that you have that opportunity. More power to you, sweetie.

    I would just ask you to not marginalize those of us who don't qualify for that :/

    We (at least I) will fight like a rabid weasel for you folks. I won't *ever* be where you are. I wish I could be.

    We are all sisters here, and we all have our place.

    - MM
    Last edited by mechamoose; 09-02-2015 at 03:24 AM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechamoose View Post

    I would just ask you to not marginalize those of us who don't qualify for that :/
    How am I marginalizing?
    I'm not saying stay away, I'm not saying anything negative to your way of life, I'm just asking if TS members can discuss TS issues, in the TS forum without being constantly attacked.

    Can I ask why you think it's an 'opportunity' and why it's an 'option' for me but not you?
    Option implies choice.

  8. #83
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    How am I marginalizing?
    I'm not saying stay away, I'm not saying anything negative to your way of life, I'm just asking if TS members can discuss TS issues, in the TS forum without being constantly attacked.
    I'm sorry that you feel attacked. As I said, I would bet that many posters here don't know which forum they are responding to due to software limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Can I ask why you think it's an 'opportunity' and why it's an 'option' for me but not you?
    Option implies choice.
    I'm 6'2", 245#. I wear size 12's. I'm built like a truck.

    I will never have the 'opportunity' to be 5'2", 100+ pounds. Even if I did HRT, I would still be a big eff'n moose.

    I won't 'pass', I never will.

    I still rock a skirt.

    - MM
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  9. #84
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Those that need to transition do not have that choice not to transition because of their physiology.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

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  10. #85
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    MM,

    There are not many that have the "opportunity" to be 5'2" and 100lbs, there are however quite a few of us that are 6 foot and above. As Stefan mentioned we do not have the "choice" of not transitioning because of our physiology, we have hit a wall and it must be done regardless of shape or size.

    Megan

  11. #86
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    (and stefan37 )There are not many that have the "opportunity" to be 5'2" and 100lbs, there are however quite a few of us that are 6 foot and above. As Stefan mentioned we do not have the "choice" of not transitioning because of our physiology, we have hit a wall and it must be done regardless of shape or size.
    Point taken. I'm *not* trapped, so I lack some perspective. Mine is more of a want than a need.

    I have just accepted my physiology and decided to flaunt it, which I understand is quite different than others here.

    I was not meaning to be insensitive.

    - MM
    Last edited by mechamoose; 09-02-2015 at 06:37 AM.
    - Madame 'Kitty' Moose

    I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." -- Popeye the Sailor

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Clarity, good luck with that.

    This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
    And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect . . .
    And that makes perfect sense. I am new here and have only dipped my toe in the water and while I can identify with the an innate need/desire/requirement or whatever to identify as a woman and, I can speak to common ground on issues surrounding living your life in public including work . . . I am not transitioning (to which I will tack a caveat . . . yet). A lot of the areas discussed on this part of the forum are particular to those who identify as TS and as such, I cannot provide comment because I have no basis of understanding (short of theoretical). Transitioning as the term is applied here is (from what I read) serious stuff . . . there is not going back once you cross the Rubicon (sort to speak) and one can only go forward. For people like myself (gender fluid, part-timers, short-timers or whatever term you wish to use) we can see the Rubicon, may dip our toe in its water and some may be up their waist in the river but we are far from the other shore and until we get there we are just treading water.

    Awhile back I wrote a post on the CD portion of the forum "What transitioning means to me". It was written at a time when I was beginning to question and wanted an outlet to discuss those thoughts. Now many of the TS folks who water here responded (and none were rude BTW) but they were "disconcerted" about the use of the term. Originally, I thought "so now you own a word" (yup I can be as petty as the next person) and long story short . . . I had the mods shut the post down. However, we are all capable of learning and it was a few weeks later I had my learning experience. I was having a discussion at work and the circles that I travel in we have co-opted certain common everyday words to mean something different. A person (not of our ilk) was taking part in the conversation and used a term in response to himself as if he had lived experiences specific to my circle . . . I literally lost my s%$*. It was then that I realized that those who are TS are not trying to own a word (transition) they are applying it in a context of discussion (forum) to identify shared experiences common to themselves and when someone blunders in and shouts . . . "Hey if we change the meaning of the word, I can belong" it can be grating. While it is true that terms can become more inclusive, when you are dealing with a group of people who share common experiences, changes/altering of terms waters down the shared experience to a point where the word loses meaning for the shared collective and then it is just a word.

    Cheers

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 09-02-2015 at 07:22 AM.

  13. #88
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    Well said Isha

  14. #89
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
    I think this is a reasonable request. It could be limited to access by approval. The administrators and mods could certainly define the boundaries of the transsexual forum to include only those who are transitioners by their definition of the term.

    Until then, the boundaries might be established informally, with a polite reminder to non transitioners who stray here, as mechamoose indicated, but responding to new posts.

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  15. #90
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    I understand, to some degree, the feelings of those who advocate for a venue for transitioners only, or at least seem to choose that side of the discussion. I don't feel that way because it seems all opinions and contributions are worthy, but it isn't my opinion that brings me to this thread.

    I have a sincere question for those who have transitioned. My question is this, where does the person who identifies as female but is unable or unwilling to transition belong? There are members who do not see themselves as cross dressers, but rather, as women who must continue living a dual life.
    If they are not offensive and don't overstep the boundaries of their own RLE, would they still be welcome here?

  16. #91
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechamoose View Post
    I was not meaning to be insensitive.
    Mecha, I don't know if you know this, but I am a huge fan. I love your perspective and I respect your honesty.

    Having said that, your comments go directly to what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I realize you weren't trying to be insensitive but I want you to imagine how your twin or maybe an even bigger girl might feel reading those words.

    The reason why this forum changed my life was precisely because there were people here who had transitioned despite overwhelming odds. If I had found a bunch of posts about NOT transitioning because of the job, or family, or wife, or physicality, I may still be searching for my truth. That may sound crazy, but I really didn't know any better and seeing posts from these incredibly bright people about surviving transition actually made me think for the first time in my life that it was possible. These were real people with real problems and they were somehow able to overcome the fear and explore their nagging gender issues in real time, in real life.

    Non transitioners come in here and post these long diatribes about why the WON'T transition. That's wonderful for them, or sad for them, but when I have a close friend who is now sharing custody of her children because of her transition it kinda irks me when a part timer rolls in and says they love their family too much to transition. If there is no transition then why have a TS forum at all?

    Yes, people can feel just like me, and not transition. I really don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm not here to judge people's feelings, I'm here to help transgender people in their ill advised transitions. (they're ALL ill advised)
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlene View Post
    I have a sincere question for those who have transitioned. My question is this, where does the person who identifies as female but is unable or unwilling to transition belong? There are members who do not see themselves as cross dressers, but rather, as women who must continue living a dual life.
    If they are not offensive and don't overstep the boundaries of their own RLE, would they still be welcome here?
    I don't see why anyone shouldn't be welcome. I would just expect that they'd acknowledge and respect why this particular sub-forum exists. That doesn't include derailing threads until they're locked. It doesn't include broadening this area to the point where the people actively pursuing a transition or living a post-transition life don't feel like this is a safe space to discuss their lives and their issues.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberly Kael View Post
    ... I would just expect that they'd acknowledge and respect ... That doesn't include derailing threads until they're locked. It doesn't include broadening this area to the point where...
    They don't. They do. It has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberly Kael View Post
    I don't see why anyone shouldn't be welcome. ...
    And that's why.

    But it's not a matter of welcome (or validation, or credibility, or, or, or) so much as it is to avoid confusion and distractions. Almost everyone (almost!) is well-intentioned, so it isn't necessarily a moderation issue, either. At least until the misunderstandings and disagreements get to the point of conflict. The simple fact is that there are limits to understanding, the applicability of advice, and the relevance of commentary, despite a high level of emphathy.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    The value of this forum (in my opinion) is largely derived from the frank and honest information from the people that have actually transitioned. Some of us here want to retain the integrity of words like Transition and Full-time and some others want to keep stretching the meaning of long held terms until pretty much everyone is considered to be transitioning even though they have no intention of even changing their name.
    I do see the point now. Initially I was wanting parties to make peace with one another by agreeing to terms that do differentiate between full-timers and non full-timers, but it's apparent that calling everyone's changes transition (full-time vs. partial) is not the solution.

    Still, it would be good to come up with a term to describe what people do who are modifying their bodies with HRT and who have come out to significant numbers of people, other than calling it an extension of crossdressing. There is a difference between CDers who are only out to their wives and kids and who do not modify their bodies with HRT and people who do (impacting their sexual functioning along the way) and who risk their relationships with extended family members and personal friendships by coming out to them, even if they do not plan on coming out at work and changing all their legal gender markers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
    Again I see what you mean now. But to clarify, you're not asking gender-fluid people to not post here, as long as they acknowledge the differences between what they do and what TSs do? Otherwise we'd have to ask TSs (the few who do this) to stop, in the CD section, answering questions about perspectives and experiences understood to have been asked specifically to CDs, from their own TS perspective that they used to be CDers but how things changed for them, which does have the potential to skew a newbie's perception of how the average CD feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.
    That's what I meant. There are several steps to a full transition and they include physical modifications, coming out to everyone and living as a woman, and changing gender markers to reflect the new reality. I didn't mean there are three different and separate types of transition.

    Yes ... we do need different terms to describe the different goals to taking hormones otherwise it's too easy to conflate everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    I am not transitioning (to which I will tack a caveat . . . yet).
    This small three-letter word is a huge admission, Isha. It spells the difference between knowing that one is not a woman, and believing that one might be given enough time to figure it out. Saying "yet" has the potential to change the way that people see you in this forum.
    Last edited by ReineD; 09-02-2015 at 12:09 PM.
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  20. #95
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.

    A part timer may have existence with certain aspects of going out dressed and interacting with the public as a woman. Their experience is limited. Living part-time except for.... Is not the same as living full-time 24/7.
    I will day that although Isha is not transitioning at this time. She has experience what it's like to live and work as a woman.

    I have been on HRT for 3 years. I inject and didn't participate in any discussion on patches. I have no experience with the application of efficacy of them vs pills or injections.
    I would not like to see this subforum restricted to only those that are TS or actively transitioning. We are here to try to help those behind us that are unsure or questioning.

    Melissa actually coined a term "transitoner" I thought accurately describes the process those of us are doing.
    The confusion starts when those not actively going through or intending to go through the process. Dilute the meaning to validate their acceptance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.
    If you consider a male-identified crossdresser vs the "crossdressing" (MTF) transsexual, the experience only goes so far. Even though you might have THOUGHT yourself male at the time. Why? Because you have no real understanding of being male. Understanding of the male world - sure. Understanding of how you (woman) coped in a man's world - sure. But can you claim anything more than a bare intellectual understanding of a male crossdresser's inner experience? Isn't the extensibility of your crossdressing experience limited just as a crossdresser can only glean a limited understanding of ours?
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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.
    So, I'm not sure I agree with this. Just to be clear, I'm only speaking for me here, although I expect many of us are similar.

    There are practical/functional issues that I have experience with, sure, but fundamentally my mindset while "crossdressing" was always and necessarily different from that of somebody who is, truly, "just a crossdresser" (as this site's community likes to say). So sure, I can comment on silly things like makeup, but me commenting declaratively on the "crossdresser experience" is just as inappropriate as somebody who hasn't gone full-time yet doing so about the "full-time experience".

    To illustrate my point with another example... For a long time, I thought I understood how men think, at least to some extent - I ostensibly lived as one for 35 years, after all. Nope. Dead wrong. Clearly never understood them. I've known some good ones, and dealt with some bad ones, but only since starting transition have I actually had/taken the opportunity to interact with them in ways that have made it clear that I have no friggin' clue what's going on inside their little lizard brains. I understand a bunch of functional things about living as a man, but I cannot say I know anything about what it's like to actually be one.

    Edit - Doh! Lea beat me to it, and a good bit more concisely as well.
    Last edited by Zooey; 09-02-2015 at 01:19 PM.
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  23. #98
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Transitioner is to me a term which describes what a person is doing about their gender identity. It is a verb to me, actually CDing is mostly a verb to me as well. I am sort of getting a bit about the frustrations of many of the people in this sub forum who identify as TS women. However, I still do see where there is a bit of judgmental nature against those who are somewhere other than where they are, and haven't gone through what they have. Yet, most who now identify as TS, were once there themselves, and likely were once at a point where they either denied being TS, to others and or to themselves, or really hadn't figured it out for themselves yet.

    By all means, anyone who is not transitioning and or planning to should imo NOT being giving any advice or much of an opinion on transitioning. I don't come here often enough or have read threads where I have seen that (not saying it doesn't happen) but I haven't seen it personally. This thread, and the other which got locked have caught my interest though.


    There are times where there is not a CD thread which catches my interest, or how I may be feeling about myself at the moment seems to resonate there, but here it may. Before I go any further, I will state I do not identify as TS, and have no plans on transitioning. I will also state however, that my internal femininity goes deeper than the mere experience of wearing clothing, and having an outward appearance of a woman. Sometimes, the more real nature of this section just works better for me. Mostly just with the self identity threads. There are a great many CDers who are caught somewhere within this purgatory of gender. Some will and some have ended up out on this side, others will always remain trapped in it. I feel I may be among those who will always be more than a casual dresser, but less than a TS woman in terms of identity.

    As is often stated here, most will say they transition because of a need to. If one can make a choice between transitioning or not, the choice should always be not to. Basically having a choice indicates one shouldn't. I can only offer a basic agreement with this logic. What I do feel though is a real feminine existence internally. I am not and have not classified it to be identifying as female. But, that femininity can often cause me to feel more like one than a male. Dressing doesn't cause me any great excitement, or thrill, or any sexual issue, it just makes me feel more comfortable. I have realized my femininity is deeper, more internal than how I appear or the clothes I wear. For that I only hope that my femininity is respected as real as anyone who is TS, or a GG. While not a complete identity, what there is of it IS as real. There is no wannabe about me, and no fantasy either.

    I am old enough not to have my core social structure reside on the internet, but there are younger people whose socialization is as much if not more on the internet. There are others, and some among you who could not figure out what was wrong with you for so many years until the discovery that you were a woman living in a man's body, or like many, who get caught in some gender purgatory. I would only hope that the the TS side not be so hostile toward those who are in a spot of discovery, that they opt out of what is right for them. Or the many who sometimes just need to know their gender issues are more real, more internal and have a comfortable place to go, even if their path does not lead to transition.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  24. #99
    Banned Read only
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Cathedral City, CA
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    4,640
    Definitions are always important. It's important because we (crossdressers, transgender people and transsexual people) should be the ones to define ourselves. If we can't clearly convey the idea of who we are to the outside world when appropriate, who will?

    Personally, I like simple definitions where possible. Elegance is often born of simplicity. However, I realize that clinical definitions often must have at least some degree of complexity due to creating and referencing specific constructs. For the sake of simplicity, the way it looks to me is:

    Crossdresser: Someone who chooses to occasionally present as the opposite gender for their own personal satisfaction without reference to frequency or location.

    Transgender: A person who has at least some degree of gender dysphoria such that their gender identity is not exactly aligned with their birth sex. To satisfy this, some time is spent presenting as the opposite gender. No qualifier is placed on the degree of gender misalignment; just its existence.

    Transsexual: A person whose degree of gender dysphoria represents a complete, or nearly complete, mismatch between birth sex and gender identification. Conscious steps are taken in order to reconcile this mismatch and gain alignment. The specific end game is not stated because some may completely transition, but some may not due to medical considerations, financial considerations or life situation (for example, caring for an elderly parent and being employed may not allow for extended absences for medical procedures). Regardless of the physical considerations, the person will likely live as the opposite gender full time.

    Transitioner: Someone who is in the process of consciously taking steps in order to reconcile the above mentioned mismatch and gain alignment. Note that ones personal end game is not specified.

    If engaged in a conversation with people outside of this community, what I wrote above is essentially what I would say. I think it is fairly understandable if one is in any way open to new information. I can't see complicating it beyond this; at least for the first pass.

    DeeAnn

  25. #100
    Member Kimberly Kael's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Posts
    496
    The problem I have with excluding people from conversation entirely is that I, like many others, went through a period of time when I was trying to understand my own experience. Interacting with and asking questions of folks who had transitioned was a valuable part of my own growth. My primary motivation in spending time here is to pay it forward for another generation of trans folks getting to know themselves.

    Sure, we could just shut people out but that's basically the nuclear option. It doesn't feel like the strategy of a healthy, growing community. It's throwing out the good along with the bad because we don't know how to deal with the problem.

    As for posting my experiences in the CD areas? I do so very occasionally when it seems especially relevant. Mostly I refrain, largely out of recognition that my own experience as a woman was quite different from that of someone who comfortably identifies as male.
    ~ Kimberly

    “To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard

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