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Thread: Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

  1. #26
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    The theory goes that you're following the standards of care and you take what you can from internet advice and apply it to your own situation as/if you can.
    I've gotten some great advice here and I really never gave two farts who it came from.

    /me shrugs

  2. #27
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle789 View Post
    Some of us may switch back and forth for a year or so before going full-time. Some of us go full-time before starting HRT. Some of us need a year of HRT before going full-time.
    There is nothing wrong with the circumstances that you describe. What does jar on those of us who have pulled the pin, is when the people you describe try to tell people that they know what it is to be full time, or when someone who states elsewhere that they "femm up" one or two days a month decries those who are sharing lived experience as being "Trannier than Thee".

    I cannot offer practical support for someone who says that they are transitioning from male to male with benefits in the same way that I can someone who is transitioning from male to female. Why? Because practical support demands lived experience.

    If I had not had a few friends who were prepared to challenge my ideas and make me examine my intentions long and hard, I would have had a much more difficult transition. As it is, when I was invited to share some my experiences last year with a group of people seeking to understand how to better support trans folk, it left all of them shell-shocked and wondering how I coped. What good would sugar-coating have done them?
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  3. #28
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    There has been no attacking, but certainly lots of challening, those who do not like the challenge will have difficulties in RL, if they can't take it here.
    Yeah, I agree. In fact, I punch people in the throat when they first come into the group I lead and tell me they want to transition. Preparation for real life challenges! /rolleyes.

    Hey, after I get my surgeries next week, do I get to tell people the right and proper way to transition (obviously the way I did it, of course)? Because a helluva a lot of that has gone on here - especially in times past.

    I didn't find some of the criticism I got here early on to be especially helpful. Some of the least helpful, however, came not from other trans women on this forum, but from some of the cisgender folks who chime in from time to time, and who have no right to offer their views on transitions, in my opinion. They are simply incapable of understanding what we need and why we do this, despite accidents of their birth that cause them to be so esteemed here.

    I think that telling only the terrible side of this is unhelpful. Not everyone has an awful transition. I haven't. Yeah, I've lost stuff. Most of us do. I tell my story honestly. That means talking about bad stuff that's happened. But I also talk about the successes.

    And the reason I do those things is because two years ago, I held on to life by a thread. Wanna tell me transition is hard - that it's hopeless? Great - I was ready to end my life, and in fact tried it thanks to some of the awesome feedback I got here. No fantasies here - I was ready to cash in my chips because I had no more will to live with the pain I felt. I had more than one person question that such feelings were even likely for me to have. I shake my head in wonderment at that attitude. I wish I was the only person who'd ever felt as I did. Unfortunately, I see this all too often. When I meet someone who is going to transition, but never reached the point of feeling suicidal I thank them and congratulate them on seeking treatment before it became critical.

    The folks on here who, mostly through PM's, gave me encouragement saved my wretched life. So I try to return the favor with others - and a big part of that is hope. When someone's dysphoria is so terrible that they cling to life by one finger, that slim hope someone offers them that they can feel better may be the ONLY hold on this life they have.

  4. #29
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
    That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

    e:
    Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.
    Nope. That person was not consistent and coherent over time. Many of us were on to "her".

    No offense to current mods but a number of us called it out but were shut down by mods. Some really good people left the forum because of it.

    Although the mods do a good thankless job sometimes they shut down comments and threads that expose people for what they actually are.

    And it's exactly the opposite of let it go. That person is the reason to have challenging conversations.

  5. #30
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    Terrific response, Kaitlyn. Your last comment is spot on.
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  6. #31
    Silver Member STACY B's Avatar
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    Hell they Busted my Chops here a Bunch of times ,,lol,, Most of you just STOP AND THINK BACK,, Back when you first came here and what you knew or thought you knew? You just gotta know when to Shut up an back down when you don't really have the answers. First thing they tell you here is to seek Therapy,, Until you see a Pro and get an Expert to evaluate you your opinion really doesn't count all that much anyway. There is a Little bit of a System here, An then it's off to the endo and so on and so forth.

    This is Not the Cross dressing part,, No one here wants to here you went out here and there and about what you bought or anything of that sort, Some of us like that stuff and we will go to the CD side and check it out but these folks here are serious Bizz about Transition from one sex to another Full time all the time from begin to end and all that RLE is all a part of it and it you havent reached out that far yet don't comment about stuff you know nothing about.

    Like me I joke an clown but stay within my spectrum of Transition time, All the Catfish folks will get found out sooner or later they all do, This is a small world and we Meet each other from time to time and without Trans Cred from meeting someone from here your words mean very little to most of us. No matter the picture or your big words or talk personal meet up to verify your real is priceless in my book.

    Anyway Bang away at me and Please convince me to STOP an to Not Transition and tell me how to go about it and live to tell others. Just because we are all trans we are different people from different places in the world and live different lives and are never going to all get along and for the most part only thing we do have in common is being Trans an nothing more.

  7. #32
    If only you could see me sarahcsc's Avatar
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    For everybody along this path, there will be times when they need to be supported, and there are times they will need to be challenged.

    If you assume that a 'hit of reality' is what everybody needs, then maybe you should read about the importance of having dreams and fantasies too.

    We shouldn't be the ones to dish out reality because our realities are always going to be biased.

    We can certainly tell others our stories, but to assume it to be 'reality' is nothing short of arrogance and ignorance.

    I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.

    It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

    And the "you don't know what you're talking about unless you've gone through what I've gone through" mentality that creates the divide.

    Also, people who holds these mentalities are often the most vocal group as well.

    I agree that we all need to be supported and challenged at different times, but we should leave our stories, biases and agendas out of the picture as much as possible and focus on the person asking for help. We might still get things wrong sometimes but at least our conscience will be clear.

    The very concept of sex and gender and transitioning means differently to different people. To heed only the advice of those "who are out" is to lose sight of the vast majority of others who have faced other unique challenges in their lives who has equally precious pearls of wisdom to share. Why discredit others "who are not out"?

    Love,
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    "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand

  8. #33
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    That person is the reason to have challenging conversations.
    Challenging conversations or threads arguing the same thing about whose real or not?
    It takes too much effort to caaaaare.

    *takes grain of salt*

  9. #34
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    Then don't get involved in such threads?

    We are talking about so-called "real" transsexuals, or real people? There is a big difference.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  10. #35
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    My bad, keep having the same discussions over and over.
    Have fun!

  11. #36
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    Sara, there is a place for the desires of the heart (what I interpret from your "dreams and fantasies".). I doubt this is the place to indulge that (if you'll excuse the term). My guess is that the forum would quickly be overwhelmed with posers to the point of being completely unusable.

    But say we did. Ask yourself what kind of dreams and fantasies have you seen presented here? How often have they had any correlation to real life, been substituting for action, or present other conflicts? You can answer that for yourself.

    I went to a hair transplant surgeon today for a consult. This is a HUGE issue for me. I didn't get the answers I expected on several topics. I was told quite directly what my best options were and why. He might have indulged my fantasies (desires?) for other answers, but what would that have served? It would have set me up for a worse disappointment later, as well as additional expense.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  12. #37
    Member Kimberly Kael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    For everybody along this path, there will be times when they need to be supported, and there are times they will need to be challenged.
    I couldn't agree more, though I'll add that none of us are really qualified to distinguish between the two definitively given how little information we know about anyone here. Providing a range of views is a useful service we can provide as a community.

    We shouldn't be the ones to dish out reality because our realities are always going to be biased.
    It's no less true for any subject, but reality checks are still useful. Anyone who assumes that liberal family members are guaranteed to be accepting, or who thinks that a workplace policy prohibiting discrimination is any kind of guarantee, or that a weekend dressed is a reasonable approximation of living full-time needs a reality check. Yes, it can go completely overboard in the "your wife will leave you and you'll be unemployable" vein, but that's why getting multiple perspectives is useful.

    I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.
    To be fair, there's usually a lot more to say about the former than the latter. I have posted my share of positivity here and haven't been explicitly called out for it. No, it doesn't tend to lead to much conversation but there's often not much to say and certainly few cautionary tales that emerge. "Watch out! You might be just fine!" doesn't exactly rate as a headline.

    It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.
    Yeah, I'm not a fan either and I've said as much from time to time. I think there's an inherent danger to letting that much pressure build up and acting under duress as a result. There has to be a better way of saying that what you gain is subtle and what you risk losing can be earth-shattering, so be really, really sure you know what you're doing. I suspect the transition or die meme emerged largely from historical treatment where that was essentially the magic phrase required to get medical treatment. That in turn may have reflected the cost / benefit picture given where western society was on trans issues. Things have indeed improved in recent decades albeit not uniformly. Unfortunately there's also some evident backlash attached which will hopefully be short-lived.

    Why discredit others "who are not out"?
    Putting someone's views in perspective relative to their lived experience can be helpful for observers. Consider watching a debate between scientists and politicians — wouldn't you like to know which is which and what their credentials are before weighing their relative arguments?
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    “To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard

  13. #38
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    We might still get things wrong sometimes but at least our conscience will be clear.
    My conscience is clear, thank you very much . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    Why discredit others "who are not out"?
    Then why discredit anybody at all on any issue at all for that matter, right?? Why not instead just give everybody's opinions and stories equal weight, regardless of their experience, education, and background?? I mean seriously, just THINK about that for a moment, and see if you don't come to the same conclusion that the remainder of the rational and logical world has . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    If you assume that a 'hit of reality' is what everybody needs, then maybe you should read about the importance of having dreams and fantasies too.
    Not sure what you mean by "dreams and fantasies," but NO ONE HERE is saying that there is no place for positive stories, feedback, and validation within this forum. NO ONE is saying that. And quite frankly, it gets tiresome reading all of the crap from members who feel compelled to spout that accusation out when things become perhaps a bit difficult. It's a ridiculous and unfounded accusation and argument, however, and one I suspect is tossed around because some folk would rather live within the matrix instead of outside it. I myself have submitted more than my fair share of positive posts, and I have commented many times in a very positive manner. That's true of every longtime and regular poster here. To say otherwise, in the face of the overwhelming evidence (don't take my word for it, go ahead and sift through past posts and OPs and check it out for yourself), is to live in la-la land.

    The true value of experience is recognizing situations for what they are, and based upon that recognition being able to respond competently, wisely, and in a manner that has a foundation based in reality and results. If you want to throw that out the window and go barreling through a china shop blindfold, have at it. I'll not stop you or anyone else who chooses to do so . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    Challenging conversations or threads arguing the same thing about whose real or not?
    It takes too much effort to caaaaare.

    *takes grain of salt*
    Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? Good people put much time and effort into composing and submitting posts and responses on a wide variety of topics and issues here. And they do this not for the glory or glamour - because there is none - rather, they do so because they CARE and they desire to help in any way they may be able. Many good people have helped me over the years here. They deserve better than scorn . . . .
    Last edited by Anne2345; 08-27-2015 at 03:49 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne2345 View Post

    Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? .........
    They deserve better than scorn . . . .
    So does she.
    She was not being scornful to anyone.

  15. #40
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne2345 View Post
    Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? Good people put much time and effort into composing and submitting posts and responses on a wide variety of topics and issues here. And they do this not for the glory or glamour - because there is none - rather, they do so because they CARE and they desire to help in any way they may be able. Many good people have helped me over the years here. They deserve better than scorn . . . .
    I like it here because there are resources here that help me, I'm just offering a different POV here and being roasted for it.
    I've actually had people PM me and say they don't post in this section because of all the realness witchhunts.
    No matter how far into transition they are or want to go people shouldn't feel scared to post here.

  16. #41
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    I'm just offering a different POV here and being roasted for it.
    You are not being roasted for having a different POV. Instead, you are being called on the carpet for being rude, dismissive, and sarcastic within the body of this thread. There is a difference. A rather large difference, to be sure . . . .

  17. #42
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    I don't think she has been rude, dismissive or sarcastic. Why do you need to attack people like that? That IS what you are doing.

  18. #43
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    I am sorry for posting.

  19. #44
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    No room for differing opinions here I guess.

  20. #45
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    Sorry you feel that way Anne.

  21. #46
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Sorry I feel this way? You obviously have no idea the way I feel.

    But this is the internet, right? Take everything with a grain of salt, right? Don't really put any faith in anyone here, right? Don't care too much about any of this stuff, right? Just kinda blow it all off and wide paint a brush of apathy over it, right? Because none of us are real people. None of us are who we say we are. None of us give a shit about anything except making ourselves look better than everybody else on some tranny forum group, right? And none of this matters anyways, because the internet isn't real, you are a fraud, and I'm some 70 year old grandpa trying to stir up crap for no good reason other than I get to beat off knowing that I'm pissing y'all off.

    All of this is nuts. It's crazy. It's just plain stupid how overly sensitive, how in denial, and how stubborn some folk around here are. Not to mention just how completely full of crap certain members are. Which really should come as no surprise, given this place is simply a cross-section of the general population at large. And as a general rule, people by and large suck.

    I like to think, though, that in THIS place, given the challenges and crap WE have to go through as a collective group, that we could and would be better than this. Clearly, we are not. We suck just as much as everybody else in the world.

    It's sad. It's depressing. It's entirely unnecessary.

    It would be soooooo much easier if I didn't care about all of this junk, if I didn't take it seriously, regardless of the madness of my methods. But I do care. I care a great deal.

    For whatever that is worth. Which apparently ain't that much. But again, this is the internet, nothing here is real, yada yada yada . . .
    Last edited by Anne2345; 08-27-2015 at 06:46 PM.

  22. #47
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    Once again I am sorry for having a difference of thought, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with yours in the future.

  23. #48
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    You think I'm still talking about you? Or that this was really about you in the first place?

    Sigh.

    Don't worry, though. I'm done. I'm finished. I'll leave the party and shut the door behind me on my way out . . . .

  24. #49
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    Hi Anne,

    I guess I am one of those "middle pathers" (although Melissa believes I fail dismally at being a middle pather ) who water in this part of the forum from time to time. I try to stay away from threads which are clearly outside of my understanding but sometimes wish to participate in honest discussion and am prepared for any fallout which comes my way (32 years in the military tends to give on a thick skin). I also post here from time to time because I really don't fit in either forum but feel some of my questions are more relevant to this part of the forum than the CD side of the house. I certainly hope nobody feels I am disingenuous as I try to be respectful of what you all go through here. I am out fully including at work so I tend to understand some of the issues here when it comes to being accepted even though I have not committed to transition at present (still have this guy side of me which really wants to live). I appreciate the honest feedback I have receive here as I move forward and while the "you go girl" sentiments are nice, reality checks are in a way a breath of fresh air.

    Will I ever transition? Right now I can say "no" although the pull can be quite hard and confusing from time to time. I spend a fair percentage of my time as a woman at work and in a military environment (Canadian) that is still a challenge to be taken seriously and garner respect . . . long battle but I do love a challenge. I am going to a major army training base at the end of the month (90% male, 10% female and 0% trans) to conduct training focus groups with combat arms individuals many of whom I have know (as a man) for 30 plus years . . . I informed them today it will be as a woman not a man.

    So in a way the reality checks many here have proffered through various posts have helped me to understand that sometimes you just have to do what you need to do to survive and move forward. So always feel free to provide me with a hard slap of reality. But I do hope I am not coming off as a wannabe because all I truly want is to live my life as I need to in order to be happy and right now . . . very happy. Next week . . . who knows.

    Cheers

    Isha

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    Once again I am sorry for having a difference of thought, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with yours in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    I am sorry for having a different opinion than the majority, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with everyone else next time.
    Do you realize how passive aggressive you are?

    Say what you think or don't.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

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