important learning about partial dressing (man in a dress)

[pamela7]

My recent adventures are documented on another thread, but i feel its important to separately bring out learning and conclusion from the experience of going out fully clothed in ladies clothing but crucially not made up and with no wig.

Yesterday I was with a female client all day, first time they've seen or known about my CD. They loved it, they felt my feminine was coming fully through. I'd done my nails but my face/head was not disguised. We finished the day by going to a local pub. I walk in, a man coming the other way does a double then a triple take and finally coughs out "nice one". There are some smiles around, but all is well, beyond well in fact. I have women I've never met before coming up to me, giving me a hug, I have men relating to me in non-aggressive ways, the barmaid comes out to give me a hug. I mean life is/was just so friendly.

Why? If I were fully dressing (trying to pass), then I'm out to deceive the world as to my sexual nature (cf scenes in "how to lose friends and alienate people"), I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place. By being a "man dressed as he damn well pleases" I'm being in my own power but no threat to anyone, in fact I'm empowering others to be themselves. It's as simple as a women wearing men's clothes. She's not wearing a false moustache and false-beard to deceive. So it does not threaten society in the same way full-on CD-ing does. In the privacy of home, or going to CD groups, yes, go the whole way, but I reckon we can out ourselves with this halfway house safely and securely because we are being ourselves.

Okay folks, comments appreciated!

xxx one very happy Pamela

[Teresa]

Pamela,
All my outing experiences have been a guy in a dress Ok not face to face as you but did have interaction between the people I met.
I'm still not convinced on this one but may have to find out at some point as marriage separation looks as if it's going to happen. I know I will have to simplify things , a less fussy wig and lighter makeup but I hate the feeling of being OK below the neckline and then looking as if someone has stuck the wrong head on the body !
To fully dress is not intended to fool or upset anyone , I just need to do it , they are going to pass comment no matter how you choose to do it .

[Melanie 0339]

I'm not so sure about this I think every girl is different I'm fairly sure most girls who go out in public fully dressed aren't doing it to challenge men's suppressed homosexuality or challenge a woman's place, they do it because that's who they are whether it's completely dressed up or just wearing a pair of heels. I'm glad you've found a look that makes you feel comfortable out and about. I've often contemplated going out just wearing a dress but I'm too self conscious to just be a man in a dress, I'm currently planning on going out in mid October completely made up I'm not doing it to intentionally deceive anyone I'm doing it because that's who I feel I am, if I pass then great if I don't then oh well. Like I said earlier all girls are different xxx

[kimdl93]

I would beg to differ on one point. If a person is out fully dressed and seeking to be seen as a woman, one's birth gender is being disguised, not one' sexual nature. Your sexual preferences aren't at play although some may erroneously associate gender presentation and sexuality.

[Krisi]

I would say you are overthinking things. Deceiving the world? Perhaps, but innocently. Now if you dress as a woman and go to bars and pick up men and have sex with them or get them to buy you dinks, that's deception. Walking down the street minding your own business, not so much.

If you walk around town as a man in a dress, that's your right, but people will make assumptions about you. Mostly negative assumptions. If you're happy doing this, go ahead. It's not something I would do. It would embarrass my wife for starters.

[Marcelle]

. . . If I were fully dressing (trying to pass), then I'm out to deceive the world as to my sexual nature (cf scenes in "how to lose friends and alienate people"), I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place. By being a "man dressed as he damn well pleases" I'm being in my own power but no threat to anyone, in fact I'm empowering others to be themselves. It's as simple as a women wearing men's clothes. She's not wearing a false moustache and false-beard to deceive. So it does not threaten society in the same way full-on CD-ing does. In the privacy of home, or going to CD groups, yes, go the whole way, but I reckon we can out ourselves with this halfway house safely and securely because we are being ourselves.

Hi Pamela,

I am glad to read you are out doing what you need to do and gaining confidence with each outing is a great thing for sure . . . CONGRATS . Now I am going to take a bit of exception to your above comment but I am sure you meant this "from your POV as it pertains to you" and not all who water here?

There are many ways to do this thing to which we all share some common ground. For you and others here, it is a dude in a dress and owning it. For others it is about dressing up and feeling good (closeted, in public or wherever) and for others it is about aligning gender identity with self. I for one am not out to deceive the world around me . . . indeed it is highly unlikely anyone sees me as a genetic woman. I am not out to challenge men's suppressed homosexuality or challenge a woman's place . . . to be honest not really sure what you are alluding to with either concept (e.g., all men are inherently homosexual and women have a place in relation to what?). I am out to be me and only me irrespective of how the world sees me.

Just to confirm . . . not mad, upset or disconcerted with your comments . . . only providing comments as you requested

Cheers

Isha

[pamela7]

society sometimes shifts quickly. By way of example, there was a time when dog mess littered our pavements (sidewalks) and kerbsides, and in like a year it all shifted, partly through campaigns about the danger of small children being blinded by germs in the mess. Now there are a few social paraihs who still mess but by and large, its over now. Earlier this year a major london store - Selfridges - opened all their 3 floors of clothing department to all (no longer gender-labelled), indicated a sea-change in the acceptance of who wears which clothes. This is a wave of social change, Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is but one part of the wave, and men are reclaiming the right to wear dresses and lovely fabrics. Long may it continue.

The point is: the time for hiding is over, or nearly over depending on location.

To Isha: Hi, I don't mean we're intentionally deceiving, I mean it gives the appearance of deceiving, and that is a potential cause of offense. I'm very aware of your encounter with some hoodlums, and I'm not saying that dressing halfway would have avoided that, and I'm not saying to go against anyone's needs. What I'm saying is that so far its working for me to be the man in a dress. I don't need to be "ma'am'd".

[St. Eve]

Hi Pamela

Thanks for the thread. Lately, I have realized there is more than just Eve inside. There is also "guy in a dress."
Eve wants to be in the world as a women (passing or not - though passing is the dream.) She wants to be greeted and treated like a women.
Guy in a dress is the part of me that fully accepts my maleness and does not care about what "gender" I am - especially if that perception is based on cultural ideals of what is Male or Female. In fact, I think Guy in a dress wants to challenge cultural gender perception and show the world that I am really neither all male or all female. If I prefer women's clothing than by golly that is what I get to wear.

Honestly, I have only the smallest experience with Guy in a dress out in the world and no experience with Eve out in the world. I am looking forward to the great unfolding as I move into the world in a different way in the coming months and years.

Peace
Eve

[deebra]

You are wrong, a CD does not fully dress to deceive the world, their intent is to present and feel like a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

dream on Pamela.....

and as deebra points out your assertion about cd'ing is so wrong its borderline offensive
and so is your thought on sexuality

you sound to me like you are trying out the old saw of
'my way is better than your way" ..it doesnt work that way

nothing wrong with guy in a dress, its what you are saying thats just flat out wrong..

[Krisi]

We have here, a series of responses from people with very different backgrounds and from very different parts of the world, most assuming that everyone else is in their same situation. This is not the case. There are many parts of the world where a male dressing as a woman is illegal and punishable by death in extreme cases. There are other parts of the world where a man walking around in a dress could be subject to harassment by others and even physical violence. There may or may not be laws against this but laws don't stop it from happening.

Many of us fear losing our jobs or families if we are discovered crossdressing. Going out in public as a man in a dress makes us recognizable. If you are OK with that and the other risks, fine, it's your choice.

Reality is reality and posting something different on a crossdressing forum doesn't change this.

[Ineke Vashon]

There are some smiles around, but all is well, beyond well in fact. I have women I've never met before coming up to me, giving me a hug, I have men relating to me in non-aggressive ways, the barmaid comes out to give me a hug. I mean life is/was just so friendly.

xxx one very happy Pamela

Pamela - Is it possible that modern attitudes in the UK are more permissive and advanced than, for instance, in the US, especially in the West, "where bison (used to) roam"

Ineke

[Suzie Petersen]

Pamela,

The following is to be considered my personal opinions and comments to your post, it is not an attack on you or anyone else who chose to do what you do. But, I realize it might seem like that.
I believe people should be allowed to do what they want, as long as it doesnt hurt other people.

But .... you are mistaking if you think your lifestyle is representative in general of the people who visit this forum!
I dont think you are trying to say that everybody is like you and should just do what you do, and I do believe you are honestly trying to tell the story that we often worry for no reason. But your experiences with mixing gender specific clothing and presentation and your theory that this is indicative of a changing world where CD/TS/TG people can more freely express their feelings of more or less belonging to the opposite gender, is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

It is possible that people react to you with a smile and go out of their way to give you a hug, all because they feel you are breaking down gender barriers and paving the way for people to express themselves as they feel. But my guess is that the reactions you see is more likely that people are laughing at you and want to soften it up with a smile and a hug.
I think people very likely see a purposefully mixed up gender presentation as a joke, a provocation or an attempt to attract attention, and I think many people within the TS, TG, CD community will feel that such displays is a bit like mocking them.

Personally, I would not be caught dead going out into the world with a mixed presentation like that and frankly, I dont want to be associated with it either. If my wife was to point to a person presenting like that, asking me if thats what I wanted to do, I would tell her that it had absolutely nothing to do with what I feel inside, although I cannot necessarily describe what it is I feel, and no, i would not want to do that.

Some of the other things in your OP have me puzzled a well:

I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place.

First, I dont know what you really mean by either of those statements, but my immediate reaction is that No, you are not, you are making fun of them, both!

We have not met, but reading your posts I am guessing that you are a very bubbly, open and approachable person when out and about. I think you are attracting a lot of attention by your display, and I am guessing that you seek the connection with people who react to your presentation. That is likely why you walk away with fond memories of smiles, hugs and approval as the outcome of your interaction with people.
Someone else doing what you write about doing, but with a shy personality, someone just trying to go unnoticed and who does not want to become the center of attention in every situation, would likely experience something very different! My guess is that person would instead face ridicule, mocking and potentially physical harm, in the exact same places where you attract smiles.

The world react very differently to people all depending on how people react to the world.

- Suzie

[pamela7]

Please try to read between my lines and also read the intent. Clearly the folk there were not making fun, I can feel the difference, when someone is uncomfortable or faking - it's called being an empath, feeling the feelings, something many males are cut-off from. My point is that by attempting to pass I'm placing myself as a female, leading to a male to perhaps "try it on" (not saying that's right but it happens), leading to discovery that its a dude in a dress, leading to upset, shock, challenge as to the person's sense of sexuality.

I don't care what someone's orientation is; we're all just people. If I were making fun, then I'd get responses accordingly, whereas I get acceptance from hetero and LGB. I'm representing something that IS working for me, I'm suggesting others might like to try it, and I'm suggesting some reasons why many people seem to be so T-hateful. I believe, from my own psychological researches, that ancient society was polyamorous, primarily homosexual, with hetero reserved for procreation only. I believe that's our nature, and that the suppression over 1000's of years comes with huge anger and therefore consequences when it it touched upon.

[heatherdress]

Pamela: Another thought - you mentioned that you were with a female client, that you spent the day with them (or her) wearing a dress, that they loved it, and that they felt your feminine side was coming through fully.

Usually, it is always, always, always, always best to keep different or unusual behaviors, beliefs and activities, out of the workplace. Crossdressing activities during work may feel good and even appear to be accepted or within company policy, but may result in adverse consequences. People who act or behave "different" may experience negative responses from bosses and co-workers. You are, unfortunately, usually hired to do a job, not to make personal statements. I have seen people get passed over for promotion, get lower performance ratings, get a reduced annual pay raise, be the subject of complaints made by others, get transferred, and a few even lost their jobs - because they were viewed as odd, or weird or different.

I don't condone that or think it right, but that's how it is, unfortunately.

Unless you own your own business, or work for a company or organization which encourages individuals to express themselves openly, or if you are uniquely talented and indispensable at work - it is usually best to not to do things that might be considered "different", "weird", "non-professional" by others or might make them feel uncomfortable.

You can dress however you want to, but if it is outside the "normal" appearance and corporate attire of your colleagues, you are taking a risk. You don't want to be viewed as an employee who puts their own self-interests before their work duties and responsibilities. Once again, I am not saying that you do that, but you risk that your bosses, colleagues and clients might.

I personally support open personal expression and the joy of dressing and presenting as we want to, but I suggest that the workplace, co-workers and clients may be where we demonstrate personal behaviors and beliefs that are different.

[Stephanie47]

On this site I have seen pictures of some extremely attractive cross dressers who do not need a wig to cover their heads. They have an abundance of hair..lovely hair. Years ago I had a lot of blond hair. My wife loved the curls. But, alas, as genetics and time took its toll that hair is gone. I would not even mind if my hair were still there are gray like a lot of men my age. But, that's not to be.

So, if I were to wear a pretty dress, hosiery and heels, makeup and had shoulder length hair, am I participating in a deception? My personal preference is no facial hair even as a male.

It may depend upon where one lives and what establishments a cross dresser chooses to enter or where to walk, but, I really do not think people are going to be anymore accepting of a man in a dress or a cross dresser trying to pass as a woman. I think I recently voiced on another thread that many people notice and really do not voice an opinion. They may make a mental note; "Oh, there's a man in a dress" or "There's a cross dresser!" Sure, any person you encounter may give the impression of acceptance, but, there is really no way to judge acceptance when the person is speaking in private.

As one has stated in a comment before me, many cross dressers cannot test the waters of acceptability in the work place as an employee. Even in my liberal progressive state the law protects those who choose to present as the opposite sex, but, that will not at all confer personal acceptability. I find society is more accepting of those transitioning and gays & lesbians than cross dressers.

If it works for you, enjoy.

[AbigailJordan]

Most employers in the UK now have anti-discrimination policies that specifically reference both gender and gender identity. The larger the company, the more likely this is, and despite everyones horror stories about them "finding a way" to get rid, you'll find that over here, companies actively and aggressively enforce these policies.

Many of them do not even make a distinction between male and female attire in the dress code, i.e. "Smart trousers or skirt/office dress with shirt/blouse, tie optional. footwear smart, heels 2" maximum".

Pamela, I haven't yet gone as far as wearing a dress in guy mode, but I do regularly wear my girl shoes, girl tops and cardies etc when going out, I no longer try to disguise jumpsuits with a jacket etc.. only had the one person ask about it so far. I think perhaps different parts of society accept the different sides.. for some it's easier to "accept" that a man may feel like a woman and wish to transform or transition to fit than it is to think of a guy wearing a dress. For others, the more simplistic "fetish" explanation is easier to understand and the whole "en femme" thing just crazy to contemplate.

[Katey888]

I had a feeling this might blossom into an interesting discussion...

First of all Pamela, can I just say how happy I am that you're happy with what you're doing. If all of us could achieve that degree of self-satisfaction then I think that would be a jolly Good Thing indeed! Good for you!

Now, you did invite comments and so I'd like to offer a slightly different hypothesis and perspective with my UK 'guy' hat on... and guy clothes as well, actually...

You're presenting as a guy (head) in a dress (NDCD - Neck-Down CDer) - my instantaneous reaction to that in a pub (even being a CD) would be that you're simply eccentric... Not too dissimilar as if you were dressed as SpongeBob Squarepants... and the British generally have great affection, even idolatry, for eccentrics... Most would think you were an artist of some sort, and the vast majority of Brits would be very, very accepting and laid back about an eccentric guy in a dress, hence the smiles and accepting comments. Hugs from women...? Similar expression to the male comments - as an initial reaction it's affirming that you're brave enough to dress how you feel... but they probably just think you're a little wacko... Now, before anyone gets offended let me express again my admiration for anyone who does this and feels the motivation to do it in this way. I'm just trying to give an alternate guy perspective on what Pamela has experienced, but long may you all have good experiences (anyway, you NDCDs probably think we're all a little barmy too, so we're quits... )

The rest of what you say might be your own experience, but I think using the expression 'conclusion' is a little over confident.

If you had dressed that way in any of the companies I have worked you would have been fired. You can do this because you have your own business (I believe) and that probably is something very specialised and/or possibly alternative in its nature, where individual expression is accepted - I don't believe acceptance would be widespread.

I don't believe femulating CDers are "out to deceive the world as to my(their) sexual nature"... That's just bizarre and I'm surprised that you're bringing that concept to a place that clearly demonstrates such a diversity of sexual behaviour, but where 'deception' for sexual purposes really makes up such a minority of this expression. That dog don't hunt...

I'd accept you're presenting a non-threatening expression - I'd disagree that people and society feel threatened by full CDers but suggest that they would be much more confused if and when a CDer is revealed as male. Your NDCD appearance will define your gender on first contact, even if there are some double-takes. Even with semi-passable, full CDers there will be more of an "is she, isn't she" judgment going on, and it's the confusion and revelation that might cause confusion and ultimately offence (at being 'fooled'). But I think you're missing here something deeper as to why some CDers femulate and while it may be to express who they feel they are (as you do), we don't necessarily feel that expression would be complete and valid if we weren't completing the picture with full makeup and hair. It's the deeper motivation that matters - imho - and it's that motivation that differentiates our variations and types in the same way that the motivation for a transsexual is totally different to a CDer.

Your examples of change in society are a little fluffy too... Selfridges is just store differentiation (a stunt) - and Caitlyn is probably not far behind (at the moment - but time will tell) - and btw, your idea that folk would respond to you differently if they thought you were just having fun rather than seriously expressing something else... Weren't you 'tweaked' somewhere recently...? That would seem to me to be an indicator that others perspective of you is not necessarily as serious as you believe it to be... And perspective is truth...

But by all means be happy with everything...

Katey x

[heatherdress]

Most employers in the UK now have anti-discrimination policies that specifically reference both gender and gender identity. The larger the company, the more likely this is, and despite everyones horror stories about them "finding a way" to get rid, you'll find that over here, companies actively and aggressively enforce these policies.

Many of them do not even make a distinction between male and female attire in the dress code, i.e. "Smart trousers or skirt/office dress with shirt/blouse, tie optional. footwear smart, heels 2" maximum".

Abigail - I understand what you are saying about protective laws and progressive company policies. I have seen and experienced similar policies. But the unfortunate reality is that there are still human beings with diverse personal opinions, preferences, comfort levels and leadership styles. I have seen many people in organizations I have been part of not be selected for jobs they were best qualified for because of their personal idiosyncrasies. Appearance, dress, conformity unfortunately are considered, to varying degrees, when selecting and evaluating employees, officially and unofficially, fairly and unfairly. Managers do not want employees who, in their opinion, might make others feel uncomfortable, do note fit their corporate policy image or do things that distract others. People may not get fired, but they may not get the raise they deserve or the promotion they have earned.

[pamela7]

I'm happy to see the thread diverge into aspects like workplace discrimination. I'd agree it's a bigger sell to get "in". When i was in the business world I was in Research & Development so our dress codes had much slack but for important visitors and expo's we "suited up".

I'm my own boss since 2004, and so yes coming out is a big possible income loss/factor (referrals, getting contracts). As people get to know you/me, they relax, their judgements come down and one can shift attire. Andro days 1-2, then gradually by the end of a week I can be in dresses.

As it was my way in the world of an intuitive meant I did not fit most corporates anyway, they can't cope with real leadership, innovation, creativity, imagination, so it meant i needed employers with problems their own staff could not solve. Same game now really. In England, as an eccentric, yes, you get slack, as an inventing genius, yes also slack, for dress, for manners, for unusual hours - they're paying for someone to do something that's outside the box, so they take it that the person also has to dress outside the box!

I suppose though that CD'ers can hardly complain about people judging on surface appearance!?

thanks for all the comments, keep them coming, it's good to discuss these things.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry
some of the things you said in the OP are not read between the lines type stuff..nice try tho...

i think you are just full of yourself and projecting your own internal thoughts(some of them pretty offensive)onto a large group
and really have very little if any insight into anything except what is specifically going on with you, it doesnt really apply broadly to much of anything

[Brandy Mathews]

Melanie,
I agree with what you posted. And I really like the saying under your join date.
Hugs,
Bree

[Gillian Gigs]

To preform a social experiment like this is interesting. In doing so, one of the first things would be to not think that everyone is thinking what we, as the individual is thinking. To see this experiment done in many locations would help to see what is real, verus what is preceived. Some us of just like the clothes, some it's sexual and some have to present as best they can as female. To me the real question is, what is the general public thinking, and that is going to be hard to figure out, considering how difficult it can be to get the truth out of people.

[ReineD]

The point is: the time for hiding is over, or nearly over depending on location.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say it's over (at least not in the US or Canada), but I've noticed the trend too.

I think (some) MtFs are beginning to catch up with FtMs. I know several FtMs from a campus group years ago and although they may have started out going the way of Chaz Bono, all except one eventually came to accept their female bodies and did not alter them in any way. Moreover, there is no attempt at disguising the female voice or having people think they are birth males. They mostly did not want to leave the lesbian community (transitioning to a male would have accomplished this) and in some circles the group of friends morphed into a queer community comprised of males and females who feel they do not conform to society's expectations of gender and sexual preference. The birth females dress like men and have masculine haircuts, and the birth males are feminine although they don't wear skirts. The people I am talking about are in their 20s or very early 30s and they are determined to be true to, and honor who they are. This is what I think you are saying.

But, this is an entirely different outlook than that shared among MtF transsexuals or the crossdressers who do want or need to present fully as women.

Congratulations on being accepted for who you are!

Going out in public as a man in a dress makes us recognizable.

So does going out presenting as a female. If a CDer dresses to blend-in well enough, there will not be red flags causing strangers to have double takes, but you can be assured that an onlooker who does know the CDer well (a family member, a good friend, a coworker who knows him well) will still recognize him. This may not hold true for everyone, but I think it does for most, unless the makeup skills are astoundingly good.

[Melanie 0339]

Melanie,
I agree with what you posted. And I really like the saying under your join date.
Hugs,
Bree

Thank you Bree it's a brave new world and I'm almost ready for it to finally see the real me xxx