Femininity and Female Identity

[Tina_gm]

ReineD- Your link showing the recent female graduates of ranger school is in a way showing a distinction of gender and femininity/masculinity. Yes, we have visual cues as to their physique, facial structure, voice perhaps.... that they are female, but are they feminine? Is what they are doing, becoming elite fighting soldiers considered in any way feminine?

I am glad they are breaking a gender boundary. Good for them they are doing something that they are A. capable of, and B. desire to. To cite a couple of women who are breaking a glass ceiling is not conclusive of the activities of the average women. Quite the opposite really. Even of many women who may have the physical capability to be rangers, how many will want to live the lifestyle? What I am saying is yes, they are women who are doing something that is not considered stereotypical or conventional as women, but that does not make them feminine, it just makes them women doing something that up till now only men have done. Most likely, they are on the masculine side for even contemplating such an endeavor.

As for my own examples- 1st let me just say that on CDers.com, I mostly post about the CD side of me. Kinda self explanatory..... but then again, so is my username. IRL, I live mostly as conventional male. I do not feel tortured by being that, or living it. In fact, I find many opportunities today where I enjoy it. I enjoy fatherhood immensely. I feel frustrated only in that I have set my life up in a way that should I include my feminine aspects of my core identity, it would shake up my life in many many ways, and mostly it would have a negative impact. This site is a primary outlet for me.

In a way, my dual gendered nature I believe allows me to see the nuances of gender differences, and how I can easily relate to both, personally. To say that men can and do feel comfortable shopping with their wives in a women's section is still different than looking at the items with a personal interest. Or When I am with a group of women, vs a group of men, the conversations take on a far different scope, tone, emotional context, and I get both, MOST women don't get how men think, or react to situations, or each other, and vice versa. Many men simply do not get why their wife becomes annoyed with them, when they think they are doing good, trying to do good, and vice versa, but I do get it, on both accounts. It is a blessing and a curse.

As for my mannerisms, 1st I would say that the U.S. is the most guilty of all western culture in this macho masculinized version.... the John Wayne or Clint Eastwood type of mentality. In another thread, I showed a picture of Sean Connery in the mid 1960's as James Bond, crossing his legs at the knee. Hardly anything at the time and in England that would ever be considered anything other than masculine, or even over here at that time. Other than very large people, crossing legs at the knee is not real problematic, or uncomfortable, regardless of what anyone says. Connery at the time was quite athletic and muscular, especially in his legs yet still had no difficulty crossing his legs in this fashion. Today, it is now deemed a feminine trait to do so.... over here anyway. Yes, I cross my legs at the knee because I feel it is a comfortable way to sit, not because I feel it is something done as feminine expression. I would say that overall, any of my mannerisms that others have pointed out to me as being feminine are not done TO BE feminine, it is just things that I do that are done without conscious thought. Gesticulating is done by both genders, but there are differences as to the ways in which they are done, subtle ways. Ways in which are considered feminine by most.

As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman. It doesn't make me one, I do not identify as one, but I believe that those ways in which my internal wiring leads me to cross gender behavior and thought patterns deem me to be feminine. Others have said it to me, described me as such at times. It is subjective granted, but, IMO anatomy itself does not make femininity or masculinity, it just makes for male and female.

[Veronica27]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have learned a great deal from the various thoughts and views, and a few things have been clarified in my thoughts. When I asked "what is masculinity and femininity", I was thinking in terms of generalities and not specifics. Some have discussed specifics at length, which is fine with me because it helps to understand how their thought processes are working in arriving at their conclusions. The identity side of things remains a difficult one to analyse however. I think that part of this difficulty arises out of terminology and the way it is used not only by our community but by society generally. Some observations are:

People, generally, tend to use the word "gender" when what they are referring to is "sex"
Additionally, they tend to use the word "sex" when they are discussing any form of genital intimacy.
People tend to think of "masculinity" and "femininity" as being descriptions of man and woman respectively.

Gender is a grammatical term for the allocating of words into separate categories. Those categories are masculine, feminine and neutral. In English, this is mostly limited to pronouns such as he, she and it, or his, her's and its. In French, it extends to articles, which in English are the and a, but in French are le and la, or un and une. Thus inanimate objects are given a gender in French. This allocation of things was probably loosely based on which sex made the most use of them, or tended to build them etc. but in modern society these distinctions are extremely blurred. Over the ages, gender has come to be synonymous with sex, perhaps because of the inaccurate uses of the word sex. However, the original meaning of gender was masculine, feminine or neutral, and not man and woman, or male and female. Over the ages, every society has determined what characteristics it considers to be masculine and which ones feminine, based on its observations and expectations of each sex. Thus the tendency has been to equate masculinity with the male and femininity with the female.

The major change in thinking in recent years, is that gender is not so much a factual division of humanity into two genders, in the same manner as sex, but rather a sliding scale of how each individual identifies themselves. Additionally, one's place on this scale is also variable depending on mood, situation etc. For this reason, gender identity is a very difficult subject to comprehend. I identify as male, because I tend to think in terms of sex. I possess all the physical attributes of the male and thus I never feel that I am female. My personality contains a fairly high recognition of my feminine qualities, which I think every male possesses to a degree, and thus I have discovered that crossdressing is a means of expressing those feelings and emotions. I feel somewhat feminine (based on my understanding of those qualities), but I don't feel like a woman because I lack the physical attributes. To me this is my sexual identity, no matter how I am dressed.

I don't know what my gender is. I feel masculine and my masculinity dominates my femininity. There was some discussion about "association" and "dissociation" as perhaps explaining some of this. As pointed out, we don't mean in a split personality sense, but simply what we have come to associate as being masculine or feminine. Because of this and the equating of gender to sex, some may feel their sense of their masculinity versus their femininity represents their gender, while others, namely the crossdressers feel that this can not alter their identification as their sex. It is a very interesting theory, but I remain somewhat confused on that aspect of TG.

Veronica

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Reine - Over the past few months you've developed a very strong opinion that the only true differences between men and women are physical, and that aspects of personality and behavior exhibit such overlap between the sexes that they should be rendered meaningless as a means of distinction. Now I do not doubt the veracity of your view, but I think if you asked the average person on the street "are men and women different?" most would say yes, and they would probably cite things that could be refuted by providing a strong counter-example. Still, there are such things as general tendencies that are useful to make distinctions. They may not hold up to every specific case, but they are often reliable patterns. Most of those tendencies are socially programmed, but that does not make them any less real. Its a basic problem we have in biology because there is always a lot of variation about a trait within any group being studied. When comparing two different groups a distinction can only be recognized by seeing if the variation within each group is smaller than the variation between the two. I would like to see data regarding differences in emotional expression, preferred activities and all the other things conventional wisdom says makes women different from men. I have yet to see any, so I will not make assumptions as to the outcome, but they have to be out there somewhere. When trying to develop any generalization statistical tools are our best option.

Bridget

[ReineD]

Reine - Over the past few months you've developed a very strong opinion that the only true differences between men and women are physical, and that aspects of personality and behavior exhibit such overlap between the sexes that they should be rendered meaningless as a means of distinction.

I don't believe that physical differences are the only true differences between men and women. I'm saying they are the strongest observable differences, since there are similarities and overlaps in everything else.

I would like to see data regarding differences in emotional expression, preferred activities and all the other things conventional wisdom says makes women different from men. I have yet to see any, so I will not make assumptions as to the outcome, but they have to be out there somewhere. When trying to develop any generalization statistical tools are our best option.

I agree, and I haven't seen any studies either. Even if studies did show that some traits are more feminine or masculine, how could we ever determine whether the cause is social or biological? Also, how could the sample sizes be large enough and could the studies be replicated with the same results in different parts of the world? So I have relied instead on personal observation based on conventional wisdom. I'm not saying that men and women are the same. Again I'm saying that the strongest observable differences in this very complex world of ours are related to the physical (women have softer voice, smaller size, softer skin, finer features, they walk and sit differently, etc, on top of the basic biological functions of both sexes).

We know there are some women who are ultra-feminine, and some men who are ultra-masculine. But others? Not so much. We also know that femininity and masculinity is in part socialized. What women consider is feminine in some remote countries in Africa for example, might not at all be considered feminine here, in terms of choosing a style of adornment. As to tasks, the differences I do observe are those, again, related to the physical. Men tend to take on the more strenuous physical jobs, and women tend to spend more time with the babies. But increasingly in our culture, the gap between both genders' traditional roles is narrowing because we no longer depend on physical tasks to survive, and most families are now comprised of dual income earners. This does not make both sexes the same (they still are attracted to each other and they still procreate), but it does eliminate a great deal that we used to use, to define the differences.

These are the sentiments I don't agree with, that are often written here: women are interested in different things than men; women enjoy shopping more than men; women are more capable of empathy and nurturing than men; women bond more among themselves than men do, (and other statements that don't immediately come to mind). We cannot put all women and men in a box like that. These statements may be true for some people, but they are not for others. And the conclusion drawn by the CDers who say these things is that if they are interested in knitting, like to shop for dresses, get along with kids, and enjoy talking to women, it must then mean they are feminine.

These CDers may well feel feminine, and some may even have gender dysphoria. But, using the statements above is not a definition of femininity nor is it a prognosis for GD, since some women and men do have the same interests, some men do like to shop and some women don't, men are equally capable of empathy and nurturing than are women, and men's bonds are just as strong as women's bonds. So the things I have read many CDers identify with in this forum are not exclusive to women, are not shared by all women, and are also shared by men. Hence my attempt at pointing out the observable differences.

I'm struggling to express this because the question of differences between males and females is so complex and I hope I'm not coming across too abruptly. I view this as a discussion and hope that others will add to it.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I have to say I am in general agreement with Reine's last post, especially the part about CDers thinking they are feminine because they like fashion or socializing with female friends. I think its more the other way around. We feel feminine (for whatever reason) and that's what drives us to pursue interests that our society has deemed feminine. Put us in a different culture and the result would still be a pursuit of whatever that culture defines as feminine.

Great discussion all around.

Bridget

[ReineD]

We feel feminine (for whatever reason) and that's what drives us to pursue interests that our society has deemed feminine.

But what interests does society deem feminine, specifically? This is what I am wanting to pinpoint. Men who do not crossdress do everything that CDers do (feel comfortable shopping for their wives, they are friends with and hang out with women, they enjoy ballet (to the extent that women enjoy ballet), they change diapers and do household chores), except they do not present as women nor do they desire to wear women's clothing. This, I think is the only interest that society deems feminine?

[Katey888]

This is interesting and I think is highlighting the difference between some deeper thinking and more stereotypical ideas. It is complex and is more difficult for any of us to be objective as we are all so intimately involved with the feelings that we believe we are expressing and observing.

I don't believe that physical differences are the only true differences between men and women. I'm saying they are the strongest observable differences, since there are similarities and overlaps in everything else.

I agree, and I haven't seen any studies either. Even if studies did show that some traits are more feminine or masculine, how could we ever determine whether the cause is social or biological? Also, how could the sample sizes be large enough and could the studies be replicated with the same results in different parts of the world? So I have relied instead on personal observation based on conventional wisdom. I'm not saying that men and women are the same. Again I'm saying that the strongest observable differences in this very complex world of ours are related to the physical (women have softer voice, smaller size, softer skin, finer features, they walk and sit differently, etc, on top of the basic biological functions of both sexes).

This should be qualified to make clear that these physical differences are based on averages of men and women for western society and of generic caucasian ethnicity. Even within this I believe that there are cultural divisions (between, for example, the USA and UK) that are strong enough to impact how culture defines the societal aspects of behaviour and our individual interpretation of femininity and the male/female roles in society. I think some of these beliefs are highly individual, but that some can be demonstrated to be more widespread. I would expect that everyone agrees the physical differences on average, are obvious and demonstrable?

It's the more intangible aspects that are difficult to pin down, but I do think, Reine, you're missing something here:

These are the sentiments I don't agree with, that are often written here: women are interested in different things than men; women enjoy shopping more than men; women are more capable of empathy and nurturing than men; women bond more among themselves than men do, (and other statements that don't immediately come to mind). We cannot put all women and men in a box like that. These statements may be true for some people, but they are not for others. And the conclusion drawn by the CDers who say these things is that if they are interested in knitting, like to shop for dresses, get along with kids, and enjoy talking to women, it must then mean they are feminine.

These may be stereotypes but they are stereotypes for a reason: the behaviour of large numbers of normal people support these things for me - they are not absolutes, but they are trends that are supported by society. One could go further and suggest that these differences are actually strongly promoted by some aspects of society (media and publishing, for example) but reality supports this too, even though much of the behaviour may well be based on cultural or societal constructs. Take one of your examples: women enjoy shopping more than men - in general, I see this as being true (I hate shopping personally; my wife could do it 24/7; but clearly that does not apply to 100% of women or men) - but if you start to dissect why more women do shop compared with men (I think this could be proven statistically), then I think there are societal reasons behind this - conforming; fashion; business; attracting; competing; opportunity... all play a part in just one aspect of our differences but they are culturally and societally driven.

When CDers express their need to reflect those aspects, I think all many folk are doing is reflecting their perception of how society would apply a label of femininity to affirm their own expression and feelings. I don't think that's wrong - and it's probably not calculated a lot of the time; it's subconscious. We want to be associated with the aspects that society as a whole accepts as definably feminine, whether that is appearance, behaviour, mannerisms, or feelings.

I think I can understand why cisgender folk and TS folk have difficulty in understanding how anyone could feel two 'genders' within one identity - I know I have difficulty understanding the feelings myself. But perhaps try to think of it another way...
Even cisgender folk have difficulty in describing what they feel as being masculine or feminine - but if you were able to suspend disbelief for a while and just accept that some people have these competing aspects within themselves - imagine how confusing and disorientating it would be to try to rationalise or describe the feelings when those aspects manifest themselves. That is why I think most people defer to what appears to be a simplistic view of how society accepts femininity and the behaviour and roles that are stereotypical, but you have to accept the validity of that view first.

It is complex, but most people will distill the description down to something very simplistic.

Katey x

[ReineD]

- but if you were able to suspend disbelief for a while and just accept that some people have these competing aspects within themselves -

I do accept. I also attempted to define here, since this was the thread topic.

It is complex, but most people will distill the description down to something very simplistic.

I agree this is complex and frankly I find the complexity at times is overwhelming since we cannot discuss all facets in forum posts. People tend to only focus on one facet at a time, when there are multiple facets to consider at once like the double slit experiment. For example, there is a difference between someone who identifies as a woman, someone who identifies as a man, someone who feels they are women or gender fluid despite what they are wearing, someone who feels they are women or gender fluid only when they dress, and someone who feels they are men when they dress. So basically, is it a question of having one objective truth (an essential definition for woman and an essential definition for man), or is there no such thing and everyone is who they say they are despite all appearances. I think that in the world outside this community, people will know who is a woman or a man. In this forum? Not so much. And what about the battles surrounding the definitions of woman vs female, and man vs male? It is confounding.

Anyway, there is value in attempting to simplify the complexity of definitions to something that will lead to common language. But, using examples of behaviors that do not define the essence of femininity I don't think is the way to do it, since people in and out of this community will disagree on the essence of femininity.

I know that CDers can agree among themselves on what is essentially feminine though, as you say it is easiest to describe stereotypical behaviors. But, if they want family, friends, and the world at large to get on board, they'll need to try a different approach in my opinion, since their definitions of femininity will not mesh with other people's experiences.

---------------

So here is a paradox that I'm sure will be answered differently by everyone. When I use "you", I mean a universal "you", not just you, Katey:

You say you feel feminine and you want others to perceive you as being feminine. Do you want others to accept that you feel as a woman (a man who enjoys dressing as a woman), or do you want them to believe that you are a woman when you dress. In other words, does it matter if their perception of you is not the same as how you feel internally. By "others" I mean the people in your lives, the people here, and pure strangers.

[pamela7]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.

xxx Pamela

[ReineD]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.

Pamela, I appreciate your sentiment, but you make an assumption about me that I feel bound to correct. When you say "lighten up" it implies that I need to be less gloomy and more cheerful?

I just want to tell you that an appreciation for analysis and the willingness to type it out does not, in my case, mean that I am gloomy and that I am not light-hearted. It does indicate, however, that I've had free time these last few days.

To participate or not in discussions such as these is optional. Not everyone enjoys analysis. But, I could do the same to you. I could say that your criticism of the discussion indicates an unwillingness to know yourself. But I won't say it because I know that doing so would only be an assumption on my part.

[pamela7]

Ah sorry Reine, i did not mean you specifically, I meant more generally us cross-dressers - and as you're not one per se, you're not accused of being too serious :-)

[Veronica27]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.

xxx Pamela

I agree with you from the standpoint of wishing that this was how things were. I would like a society where I could be completely open and honest with my family and close friends about my crossdressing desires. However, this so complex that they wouldn't understand, and I don't know how I could possibly explain it to them, when I am still searching for answers myself. My choice is to remain in the closet, or have them be suspicious of my motivations and behaviour in ways I may never have dreamed about. I don't want to spend my remaining days having to deny that I am this or that depending on what they may glean from the media or other misinformed individuals. Popular notions about this whole thing tend to change from time to time depending upon who happens to be in the news for whatever reason. In the meantime, I do exactly what you describe, but in the privacy of my own home, and put myself to sleep at night contemplating the deeper mysteries of it all.

Veronica

[ReineD]

Ah sorry Reine, i did not mean you specifically, I meant more generally us cross-dressers - and as you're not one per se, you're not accused of being too serious :-)

Oops sorry. I've been posting a lot in this thread these last few days and I assumed you meant me. My mistake.

[pamela7]

Yes indeed Veronica, but here's the rub - we don't know why, we won't know why, all we can do is to come to a peace and acceptance that we do cross-dress. Going further, the transitioners already know they're females in male bodies. So the clear question left is whether one is CD, fluid or TS. If you don't know for sure then don't transition. If someone else needs to know then you crossdress cos you like it, end of story.

I was helped a couple of weeks ago by a little child asking me why I was wearing women's clothes. The answer I now have is: "they're not women's clothes, they're mine."

[ReineD]

However, this so complex that they wouldn't understand, and I don't know how I could possibly explain it to them, when I am still searching for answers myself. My choice is to remain in the closet, or have them be suspicious of my motivations and behaviour in ways I may never have dreamed about.

Ok. This may be too simplistic, but there is one thing you can say that no one in your family can argue with. You can simply tell them that although you know this is not common, you do enjoy presenting (or dressing) as a woman. If they ask why, the response can be that they should explain to you why THEY have the preferences they have. Can anyone explain why they prefer art over playing sports, or why they obtain such deep satisfaction over doing anything they love to do?

If they object, it is because maybe because they think there is something wrong with men who enjoy looking like women. They need to realize that although at one time this was considered strictly fetishistic, it is no longer.

But the minute you get into explaining this as a female gender identity (if you are not transitioning), you risk having them scratch their heads for two reasons: one, if it is a choice for you to remain closeted it means there is an option for you to live as a man, and if this is the case, then there is a conflict between what you do and what you say. Two, if you tell them that dressing as a woman is what a feminine identity means to you, they will point out that presentation is only one aspect. Also, if it is simply a matter of enjoying spending time with women and talking to them, they know you can do this when you are dressed as a male.

The people who say they are gender-fluid (who do not attempt to mask or explain away the fact they have chosen to live as men) I think have the best chances of being understood, if they are fortunate enough to be living among open-minded people. This, I believe, is because everyone has their own personal definition of what gender-fluid means and it does not necessarily conflict with what they think their CDer's default gender identity is.

That said (and for the benefit of any TSs reading), what I say above does not apply to people who transition. I am not implying that birth-males cannot have a female gender identity and transition.

... I just read Pamela's post, who said the same thing in a lot fewer words. lol

[pamela7]

yes, I mean, North of our border lies a country pronounced like this: "Skirtland", where the men wear skirts (called "kilts"), and carry purses (called "sporrans"). Musicians and performers wear make-up, do their nails. Celebrities wear leggings and blouses. Vicars wear "robes" (long dresses). Dress as you will.

[ReineD]

LOL. So that's why the UK seems a more accepting place than here.

[Katey888]

Good points Reine...

And I'm with Veronica on the 'still searching for answers' perspective - believe me, I wouldn't keep chewing the fat here if I was happy enough to just trot off because "it makes me feel good and I don't need to know why..." There are probably all sorts of other <worse> things I'd be doing if I had that kind of philosophy...

So basically, is it a question of having one objective truth (an essential definition for woman and an essential definition for man), or is there no such thing and everyone is who they say they are despite all appearances. I think that in the world outside this community, people will know who is a woman or a man. In this forum? Not so much. And what about the battles surrounding the definitions of woman vs female, and man vs male? It is confounding.

I think this is one of those things at the core of the difficulty. I'd bet 99% of folk who don't experience this condition have never even considered those definitions - it just is to them... To us it is something so much more relevant to our daily lives where some of us are caught between the feelings of experiences that satisfy us (a mix of normal and 'irregular' things we feel are feminine) but who in the guy cis-world thinks to themselves: "Wow - I feel masculine today..." This is why parallels with stereotypes are easier to get understanding of - trying to explain how the two internal feelings of being me, when me can be how I look in my avatar and Mr Ordinary otherwise, can coexist to someone with just a one-dimensional gender existence, would be next to impossible. imho... I'm almost tempted to come out to my wife just to prove it... So thanks for trying Reine.

I think your final question has been put before but it's worth re-examining, even though the premise has to be simplistic (I don't mean that pejoratively - just that it has to be as it's what we're struggling with here ) I don't think I'm a woman when I dress or at any other time. If you'd asked me a few years ago before coming here, I wouldn't have thought I was anything but a man with a kink... Now...? I'm becoming more convinced that I am not 100% male by any means, but that I do experience a capacity (and need) to express behaviour (with presentation as part of that) which our society normally considers feminine. I'd think it great if everyone's perception aligned with mine, but given what I said earlier, that's pretty unlikely right now and for the forseeable...

Pamela - I'm going to paraphrase a great man here for why some of us need to analyse this: we don't choose to do this because it's easy - we willingly do this even though we know it's going to be hard, but some of us need to keep trying and teasing out a little more understanding each time we discuss it.

It always makes me chuckle how these discussions are interspersed with the 'lighten up' comments - Folks: if it makes your head ache or your eyes bleed, you don't have to read any of this... just move to the next section down...

Katey x

[pamela7]

Pamela - I'm going to paraphrase a great man here for why some of us need to analyse this: we don't choose to do this because it's easy - we willingly do this even though we know it's going to be hard, but some of us need to keep trying and teasing out a little more understanding each time we discuss it.
Katey x

I think that's the beginning of it for many of us - "because it's hard". :-))

Ok, seriously. ALL human beings have the capacity for full expression of behaviours, languages, clothing choices, gender identity, and due to dna influences (ancestral), life conditioning, we emerge and evolve into our present selves. Mostly, folks are conditioned well into society and don't even notice there's something missing. Then there's us: we do notice, and we do something about it.

[Veronica27]

I was helped a couple of weeks ago by a little child asking me why I was wearing women's clothes. The answer I now have is: "they're not women's clothes, they're mine."

A great answer. I can see it satisfying my youngest grandson (2 years old) but not his 35 year old father.

Veronica

[Veronica27]

Ok. This may be too simplistic, but there is one thing you can say that no one in your family can argue with. You can simply tell them that although you know this is not common, you do enjoy presenting (or dressing) as a woman. If they ask why, the response can be that they should explain to you why THEY have the preferences they have. Can anyone explain why they prefer art over playing sports, or why they obtain such deep satisfaction over doing anything they love to do?

... I just read Pamela's post, who said the same thing in a lot fewer words. lol

The other day I read a post that itemized the concerns with telling family members in a very succinct and brief way. Unfortunately I can't remember who wrote it or what thread it was in. It is nice to think that they will all be understanding or as some have said if they can't accept it, it is their problem. However in the family dynamic, you have no way of knowing what the reaction will be, and once the cat is out of the bag, there is no way to put it back in. It is a tremendous risk and one that could possibly tear a family apart. As you have implied, if you try to explain it as a gender issue, their mind immediately goes to what has been in the news lately over the Bruce Jenner case. If you emphasise the CD aspect, they think of kinky and possibly perverse motives. If you just want to express your femininity, is it necessary to dress up with kinky items like breast forms? I have too much to lose by disclosing without knowing much more about everyone's beliefs and feelings.

My own experiences have taught me that people can be very accepting and understanding of others, regardless of such things as sexuality, identity, race etc. and yet feel a level of discomfort when those issues are close to home. Some examples: My wife and I, before retirement, operated a professional practice and had a large number of clients from the LGB community. These folks were like close friends, and the LGB factor was totally a non issue. However, when watching a movie or TV show involving gays, we both sense a feeling of discomfort if there are kissing scenes, and will fast forward through them. Similarly, my wife while quite accepting of my crossdressing, has expressed discomfort at knowing that CD's were using the female facilities when we attended CD events and were out in the general public. Many people can accept their spouse or a friend being CD or TG, but have no desire to actually see them so dressed as it would be somewhat repulsive to them.

Not knowing the possible reactions, I am not willing to risk the possible damage to my relationship with my family. It is human nature to want to be loved and respected, especially when you have grandchildren who admire you. Sometimes the simplest thing can drive wedges between people.

Thanks for your insightful contributions to this thread from the "other" perspective.

Veronica

[ReineD]

ReineD- Your link showing the recent female graduates of ranger school is in a way showing a distinction of gender and femininity/masculinity. Yes, we have visual cues as to their physique, facial structure, voice perhaps.... that they are female, but are they feminine? Is what they are doing, becoming elite fighting soldiers considered in any way feminine?

You need to recognize that you have your own particular view of what is feminine. As does everyone else. I don't know if your view is limited to wearing dresses, makeup, hose, heels, and acting girly. Or, maybe it is a cross between that and the styles of the women in the video. The point is, what you define as "feminine" are really just styles. And you will observe there are many different styles that women adopt, even the style adopted by the Rangers. AND ... each woman has a variety of sub-styles, for example what she wears to work, on a date, doing yard work, etc. But, these women are all feminine by virtue of being women. Granted, there are some women whose bodies are closer to men's (squarely built, no waist, thick necks) and/or who have deeper voices. I agree that these women are less feminine than the average. But again, this is physical. The other side of the coin ... there are women who have the ideal 36-24-36 figure with the curves in all the right places plus they have the faces of angels. They might be considered more feminine than the average and again, this is physical.

A woman's style of dress and adornment is not a factor of femininity, it is merely a style that she can put on or take off. Femininity is something that does not change based on what a woman chooses to wear at any given moment.

I am glad they are breaking a gender boundary.

I know you don't mean it this way, but this is a sexist statement. It tells me that you think being a Ranger is a man's job. No, these women are not breaking any gender boundary. In our day and age, it is perfectly acceptable for women to reach their full mental and/or physical potential. Why shouldn't women be allowed to to reach their full potentials like men have throughout time? Are female athletes not feminine because they play sports? To tell you the truth, if I were younger and in great shape, I'd love to do get through the Ranger course just to know that I could do it! And on Friday nights I'd take off my fatigues and dress for a date (which I'm sure these Rangers do as well). Also, undoubtedly the Rangers will grow out their hair after training, eventually marry, have children, and do everything else other moms do until such time as they return to active duty.

The world is changing, Gendermutt.

As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman.

Ouch! So girls rationalize and obsess on certain things and men don't? I'm analytical. Does this make me think like a man and if so does it mean that women cannot be analytical?

You and your wife may have similar definitions and that's fine. But please believe me when I say that both men and women share the same character traits. Both men and women can be detail-minded or they can easily see the big picture, both can be aggressive or passive for example.

[Saikotsu]

As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman. It doesn't make me one, I do not identify as one, but I believe that those ways in which my internal wiring leads me to cross gender behavior and thought patterns deem me to be feminine. Others have said it to me, described me as such at times. It is subjective granted, but, IMO anatomy itself does not make femininity or masculinity, it just makes for male and female.

Reine, when people say, "you throw like a girl" or "you talk like a girl", what they're really saying is "you throw in a manner that conforms with a stereotype of how girls throw," or "you fit a stereotype of how girls talk." When Gendermutts wife says that Gendermutt "thinks like a girl," she's saying that she feels that Gendermutt is thinking in a way that is stereotypically feminine.

What I think they were trying to say, and by all means I hope they correct me if I'm wrong, is that your behavior (universal you) can lead others to label you as masculine or feminine.

They are not saying that women rationalize and obsess over stuff and men don't. They're saying that society has a stereotype that women do and men don't. Because of that stereotype, they are viewed as more feminine because they matche the stereotype, as accurate or inaccurate as it may be when applied to individual men and women.

Likewise, people feel I'm more feminine. Through my mannerisms and behaviors, people liken me to being more feminine than most guys. They reach this conclusion because I match some preconceived notions in their head of what proper male/female oriented behavior is. Even though the behaviors I engage in certainly don't apply to all women or all men, the unique mixture of personal and societal cues they subscribe to result in a "feminine" label.

[ReineD]

Reine, when people say, "you throw like a girl" or "you talk like a girl", what they're really saying is "you throw in a manner that conforms with a stereotype of how girls throw," or "you fit a stereotype of how girls talk." When Gendermutts wife says that Gendermutt "thinks like a girl," she's saying that she feels that Gendermutt is thinking in a way that is stereotypically feminine.

These are actually good examples of what I'm trying to say. Why does a girl throw the way she throws? See the explanation here. Basically, it's a physical difference. It's a question of body rotation. A good throw requires a separate turning of shoulders and hips. Women tend to rotate their hips and shoulders together. They think the causes are physical. If a CDer is physically similar to a woman, then he might well throw like a girl. Or, it could be that he didn't have as much practice throwing as a child as his male peers.

As to talking like a girl, I'm not sure what you mean. The things a person says, the expressions used, or the method of communicating the message? Women and men are equally capable of discussing the same things (politics, current events, describing their day, expressing emotion, etc). The expressions used, like "OMG, this is sooo cute" are socialized and even then not all women talk like that. And, some men talk like that, except there are words that some men, I suspect, are socialized to not use, like "cute". They might say, "OMG, this is sooo awesome". But if a man wants to be feminine, he'll transcend the male socialization. Examples are what some consider are gay mannerisms in speech, like the stereotypical gay man Jack in the show 'Will and Grace'. Can gay men who use the mannerisms not use them when they want to? Can women who talk like Valley Girls not talk like that when they want to? As to the way that men and women communicate (men tend to dominate and quip more than women, who tend to cooperate in more subdued voices), you can google it. There is much written on the subject. But it points to, again, the biological influenced by hormones combined with the fact that men and women are treated unequally while growing up.

http://www.academia.edu/8391364/Do_M...ak_Differently

So if a man veers from the male median in terms of being physically more like a girl, then yes, he will be more feminine than other men, although there are also men who do have or adopt feminine mannerisms (some gay men) but who have no desire to present as women. And vice versa. As mentioned in my prior post, some women are more masculine in physical appearance than other women. But, both these men and these women still fall within the normal ranges within their respective sexes. It would be interesting to see if CDers are significantly genetically different than their male peers, enough to say they are indeed more like women to the point where they want to look like women. But I don't think there is any biological basis for this.

[Saikotsu]

I'd like to clarify that I'm not trying to argue or debate, but rather to explain. I feel that we (as in the human race) are doing a disservice to others when we try to apply a "one size fits all" mentality. Obviously there are some women who are more masculine, and some men who are more feminine. Then there are people like me who are somewhere in between and change over time. Every person is unique.

We're not saying that one gender is one way and the other gender is a different way. Rather, we're saying that certain behaviors are generally defined as masculine or feminine by people, through a myriad of factors that vary by culture, upbringing, and personal opinion.

I recognize that there are biological differences between men and women. I don't think there are many people who can say there aren't. And as you've demonstrated, these differences can even affect our behaviors, like how we throw or how we talk.

Furthermore, I realize that we can, to a degree, alter our behavior to be more feminine or masculine. You gave the example of gay men who use feminine mannerisms. They can choose to use them or they can choose not to. Likewise, people can engage in gendered behavior. For example, in America, shopping is considered feminine and working on cars is masculine.

You've made a good case for why we shouldn't consider such behaviors to be masculine or feminine. One's sex has little to do with one's skill with cars. Yes there are slight biological differences, but they're not as pronounced as people think.

I'd argue that you can't even use biology to determine masculinity and femininity. Men are generally taller than women. And yet some men are shorter than most women and some women are taller than most men. These biological differences are further diminished when you compare people of varying ethnicities.

Essentially, any metric you use will meet some sort of counter metric that can refute it. This is why I believe gender is essentially an artificial construct that we make in order to fit in with society.

Many animals, humans included, naturally congregate together. We live in cities, towns, states, regions, and countries. We join social groups such as clubs, political parties, and organizations. We are naturally inclined toward this behavior.

Part of this behavior is codifying rules for men and women within a given group. More and more, these codes and rules are being challenged by society and by people like us. The more these rules change, the more the lines blur, and the more people contemplate what "masculinity" and "femininity" mean.

Sorry if I seem to be rambling.