Femininity and Female Identity

[pamela7]

it's not only gender, it's also I feel more deeply and more importantly our archetypal tribe (animal or plant species, etc) which defines running styles for example, why the man-wolf is a natural in high heels - aaaaaooooohhhhh

[Tina_gm]

Time limitations. ... so for the moment I will just clarify that I mean the female rangers breaking a gender boundary as in the past, the army would not have allowed it regardless of a female soldier having the ambition or the capability to be a ranger. Thus breaking a gender boundary. I wish to respond more later.

[ReineD]

I mean the female rangers breaking a gender boundary as in the past, the army would not have allowed it regardless of a female soldier having the ambition or the capability to be a ranger.

Gendermutt, maybe you meant, "social barrier" then. Gender-bending (crossing the gender barriers) is not the same thing. These women are not wanting others to believe they are men. When people engage in activities that are socially accepted for their gender, they are not crossing gender barriers. And it is accepted there are women who want to serve in the armed forces. In fact, these women are admired.

We're not saying that one gender is one way and the other gender is a different way. Rather, we're saying that certain behaviors are generally defined as masculine or feminine by people, through a myriad of factors that vary by culture, upbringing, and personal opinion.

But are they really? People mentally define abstract concepts differently than they do when asked to describe what they see in their day-to-day lives. People might use extreme behaviors to conjure up abstract concepts, which breaks down in real life because the extremes are seldom seen. For example, a person might say that gay men are all effeminate (they might be thinking of Jack in 'Will and Grace'), but if you put them in a gay bar and ask them to tell you what percentage of gay men in that room are effeminate, they'll answer differently. People might conjure up an image of an animated, giggling or cooing woman (for example) when mentally defining feminine behavior, but put them in a room full of women of various ages, and ask if the majority of women they see are behaving that way, they'll rethink their definitions.

For example, in America, shopping is considered feminine and working on cars is masculine.

Using precise language is crucial if we want to define things. So is shopping really considered feminine? Who shops at Best Buy? At Barnes and Nobles? In men's department stores? And is working on cars masculine, or is this something that more men do than women. If a non-CDer gets a car serviced by female mechanic, will they say the mechanic is masculine? Not if that mechanic has an average female voice and body. If she doesn't (for example if she is stocky, no waist, no hips, etc), then she will be described as masculine compared to the average female. She will still be more feminine compared to males.

I'd argue that you can't even use biology to determine masculinity and femininity. Men are generally taller than women. And yet some men are shorter than most women and some women are taller than most men. These biological differences are further diminished when you compare people of varying ethnicities.

Individual biological gender cues (there are many) are weighted and then added together. A short male will still be viewed more masculine than a tall female because of all his other male gender cues compared to her, even if they are both wearing blue jeans.

Essentially, any metric you use will meet some sort of counter metric that can refute it. This is why I believe gender is essentially an artificial construct that we make in order to fit in with society.

I agree that we cannot use chromosomes to define gender among both the intersex and the people in the T community (CDs/TGs/TSs) and for this small percentage of the population, I agree that a socially defined gender is not useful. But, we cannot say this for the vast majority of people whose sense of gender ID does mesh firmly with their birth sex. The people NOT in this community do solidly identify as men/male or women/female, even if some men know they are less macho than other men, and some women know they are less girly than other women. These people will not feel more or less feminine as their peers (in the sense of having gender issues) because they do acknowledge the vast range of traits and behaviors that are indeed considered within the normal range for each sex. Right? If you tell a guy he is feminine because he doesn't like sports, he'll likely be insulted. If you tell a female-mechanic that she is masculine, she will likely be insulted too.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Let me ask the broader question, is there any point to trying to use terms like masculinity or femininity if there are no concrete defining examples to support the notion? Reine seems to be making the case that, except for childbearing, there is no behavior or activity, or even way of thinking, that exclusive to one sex, so there is no way to define the terms outside of biology.

To answer my own question I say yes there is a point. Just because you can't draw a hard line around a concept does not render it useless or meaningless. The definition of feminine is "of or pertaining to females". You have to be guided by what is common or normal in terms of appearance, behavior, etc. In western culture wearing make-up outside of any form of public performance is an activity performed primarily by women. Therefore wearing make-up is feminine. Is that the only thing that makes a woman feminine? Absolutely not! Because women are so varied it would be unwise to base a a concept of femininity on even a small handful of characteristics. Still, each culture finds a way to distinguish males from females. Some cultures, through their languages, even assign the concept to inanimate objects through definite articles (el/la; someone brought that up in one of these threads recently, perhaps even this one).

What we have to be careful of, though, is to take the time to get to know people and value them for themselves and not fall back on labels or stereotypes. We are all unique and deserve to be recognized for our individuality. My life now is a blend of masculine and feminine. I like to think it gives me an advantage in my relationships with everyone because I can relate to anyone on some very fundamental levels. It is through my relationships with others I hope to enrich their lives and be enriched by theirs. That is what makes life worth living.

I've enjoyed this thread. The intellectual challenge of breaking down concepts most people just take for grated is very fulfilling, but there comes a danger of dissecting ideas so much they become unrecognizable and useless. It reminds me of a line from the first book of Ecclesiastes which says "Meaningless! Meaningless!...Everything is meaningless". If we keep pushing this one I'm worried we'll all walk away thinking "What's the point of it all?"

Bridget

[Tina_gm]

Just wanted to make a bit more of a thought out response, was very busy this weekend and just did not have the time to do so.

1st, if barrier is a better word for what the female Army Rangers are doing, that is fine. I was referring to the fact that prior they were simply not allowed to by the rules of the army. Thankfully that is not the case anymore.

I think hopefully we will have to come to understand that femininity and masculinity is a construct, and is not static. IMO, what makes them what they are, my own definition is that which is more typical of women becomes feminine and vise versa for men. If a guy lives his life in most of the typical ways in which other guys live, dresses, acts etc etc.... but has a couple of ways in which he does something more typical of women, that does not make him feminine, but that what he does which is more typical of women is feminine. When a guy (or girl) does many things, a majority of things in their life which are more aligned to the typical aspects of the opposite gender, then they become masculine or feminine as a description opposite of their birth gender... feminine male, masculine female.

I would think most CDers have a stronger than typical femininity about them, which is a REASON why they dress. Those who are totally aligned opposite of their birth gender are TS, in males they would be mostly feminine, to the point where they will go through transition to be aligned with their internal femininity.

[ReineD]

What we have to be careful of, though, is to take the time to get to know people and value them for themselves and not fall back on labels or stereotypes. We are all unique and deserve to be recognized for our individuality.

Fully agree!

I've enjoyed this thread. The intellectual challenge of breaking down concepts most people just take for grated is very fulfilling, but there comes a danger of dissecting ideas so much they become unrecognizable and useless. It reminds me of a line from the first book of Ecclesiastes which says "Meaningless! Meaningless!...Everything is meaningless". If we keep pushing this one I'm worried we'll all walk away thinking "What's the point of it all?"

I've enjoyed this thread too.

I'm not trained in biology or gender studies so it is difficult to harness my thoughts and communicate them as precisely as I would like to. I don't mean to say there are no differences between men and women except biology, just that the physical is the most obvious in our current culture of narrowing gender roles. Also, I think that what we see deeply influences our perceptions of what is.

A good example of this occurs when we read text. I think that most people will not be able to discern whether a writer is male or female just based on their written descriptions of events or how they express themselves in the course of a forum discussion. We might be able to tell their age bracket based on the use of certain expressions or the adoption of certain ideals or attitudes, we'll definitely know if they're educated or not, but their gender? Not so much.

Do I believe that gender is meaningless? No. Without it, we as a species would not have survived. I identify solidly as a woman (not gender neutral) and I am most definitely attracted to men, even if I rarely wear makeup. So how do I know this? Because I feel comfortable in my body and I feel akin to other human beings who were socialized like me based on their bodies that also happen to look like mine ... whether they wear makeup or not. And most of us are attracted to the bodies of people who are not like us and who were socialized differently than us because of it, even if they are male goths and they do wear makeup . This has a great deal of meaning.

You mention makeup ... yes, this is a part of the female presentation, just like women's clothes, shoes and jewelry, that society has designated is appropriate for women to wear and in this sense, it is labeled "feminine", to varying degrees based on the amount of frou-frou and flounce I suppose. But, some women choose to not wear these things and they are no less feminine provided they have feminine bodies and looks. And if CDers wear these things, does it make them feminine? Not if they look like men ... they'll then look like men who are wearing feminine things. Some CDers who have more delicate facial features may wear these things and look feminine, but such CDers would have a less masculine look in guy mode than their peers anyway (think Justin Bieber).

People involved in gender studies point out that biological sex is not tied to gender ID. This is true, for the people who are not cis-gender. But, biological sex and gender ID are solidly meshed for the rest of us and this is what enables the bringing together of gender roles - it's OK if a boy likes to cook and wants to be a teacher or if a girl likes to play sports and wants to be a mechanic, because our gender is more deeply tied to our sex, which no amount of sociological change can erase, than to what we do or how we look within the range deemed usual for our respective sex.

And this is why MtF TSs seek body modifications that will erase all male gender cues (electrolysis, all the different FFS procedures, BAs, and in some cases, hip and butt padding and SRS). They don't change other things about themselves - Caytlin Jenner did not stop playing golf for example and TSs in this forum have said that their personalities and personal interests didn't change after transition.


... anyway, I'm going on and on again. I'll stop.