Retrospective confirmation of early onset?

[Bima]

As many posts and threads witness of, many of us remember how we dressed for the first time when we were very young, perhaps only 4-10 years old, and how it all evolved and were a part of us ever since then. This applies to me too, with my first CD memories at 4 and 7.

The young age is often seen as a "proof" for that this is an inherent part of us since birth. At least I have thought so in the past, but what if this is just jumping to conclusions?

Perhaps trying mum's oversized shoes, her stockings, or your sister's skirt is just something that every child do, even the boys that do not CD, or have CD thoughts, later on in life? It's perhaps just a natural thing kids do, exploring and playing.

Is the early memory of crossdressing just a convenient memory to rationalise and "explain" our CDing today as we never consider if a non-CD control group of males also tried mum's shoes or a dress as small boys. If they did, why did they not continue, but we did? And if they tried on some female garment, what is our "first memory" really worth?

It could be interesting to know and compare the percentage of CD-men and non-CD-men that have early memories of trying as well as not trying girls/women's clothing at very young age to see if one can draw any conclusions, or if we just rationalising in retrospect given the positive outcome of CDING.

Any thoughts on this? Perhaps the reflection does not make any sense at all?

/Bima

[Jazzy Jaz]

I think most of us are born this way. Sure many boys who are not cders have tried female shoes or clothes when they were kids, much like my kids have worn my big work boots around the house for fun. The difference is WE liked it and felt connected to cding and DIDN'T stop even after realizing that it wasn't socially acceptable. I think this distinction rather than memory itself is what counts for confirmation of it often being early in life.

[Katey888]

Any thoughts on this? Perhaps the reflection does not make any sense at all?

Bima, you've confused me over my breakfast but perhaps I just need a second coffee and caffeine kick... You said:

Is the early memory of crossdressing just a convenient memory to rationalise and "explain" our CDing today as we never consider if a non-CD control group of males also tried mum's shoes or a dress as small boys. If they did, why did they not continue, but we did?

Doesn't this support the "proof" (or at least, assertion) you mentioned earlier that the reason why we continue is that we are different, and that the likelihood is that this is either developed in us at a very early age socially, or is either inherent or instilled by some other mechanism (hormones are suspected) prenatally?

To my mind, the evidence that so many of us do experiment early and gain some sort of non-sexual satisfaction from crossdressing says two things very strongly:

1) This is not a socialised or learned behaviour because our backgrounds and upbringing are so vastly different, therefore it is something innate in our personalities;
2) This happens at an age when we have learned enough about gender roles in society that we understand that appearance (clothing, hair, jewellery, makeup, etc.) is probably the biggest indicator of gender and therefore when we choose to use appearance to 'redefine' ourselves (and enjoy it, and feel comfortable with it, and desire it) it is also the biggest indicator that our gender compass is not quite aligned the way that the majority of normal males seem to be.

I don't believe there's much proof available for many aspects of this curious condition as social stigma exerts such pressure on us to conform that it is difficult even for many of us to be accepting of what it means...

Now for that second coffee!

Katey x

[Marcelle]

Hi Bima,

Children experiment and while I am sure not every boy has tried on a dress when young to see what it is like, I am also sure many have. For most it will do nothing short of being an interesting experiment and then they will carry on with their lives. For others, it might spark a whole different feeling, one of contentment, internal happiness or whatever. For those it is likely a wiring issue (boy body, girl brain) to some extent such that some will just find pleasure later in life wearing women's clothing from time to time and others will have an innate need to align their gender identity which is opposite of their birth sex. In the world of statistics we are what is known as a "restricted sample" in that the majority of folks have a penchant for dressing in women's clothing for whatever reason so naturally it would be easy to assume "If you dress in female clothing at a young age, it means you will do so later in life".

Cheers

Isha

[CynthiaD]

The scientist inside me says "Yes, you're right. Someone should do a study on this." But the trans-woman inside me says "Ignorance is bliss!"

[Jenniferathome]

You can't compare play dress up with cross dressing. It is true that every kid will dress up if they have access to the clothes but that is not cross dressing and cross dressing is not "play dress up." They may look similar but they are totally different. The difference is in the intent. I have no recollection of playing dress up but I suspect I did. When I began wearing girls underwear at age 7 or so, I KNEW it was "wrong." Hence the intent

[Nadine Spirit]

I never put on a piece of female clothing until about age 13. It was my sister's jacket that I would wear to school. But before that, and after that, I had a variety of behaviors and likes that were not traditionally seen as male. Thus for me, I cannot explain my gender variances away by saying, oh well everyone tries on their mom's clothes at some point.

[Pat]

Bima --

To me it starts with no evidence and proceeds to a conclusion. Not good science, but fine to meditate over coffee. What would be the take-away if your musings were correct? What if we were "just rationalizing in retrospect"? Would it mean that we didn't try on women's clothing when we were children? Would it mean we are not crossdressers now? Would there be any substantive change to anybody's current status?

I understand that people routinely adapt their memories to fit their personal mythologies. I know performers who point back to events in their childhood that "foretold" their eventually becoming performers. "I was the star of my kindergarten play." I know cops who do the same -- "I loved to play cops and robbers." All of them are building a personal mythology that explains why they became who they are and how the universe makes sense because they're on the path that was intended for them. People do that because it gives them comfort. Are crossdressers doing it too? I wouldn't be surprised. But does it change anything? And are the memories wrong?

[deebra]

At 4 years old while playing with a little girl playmate we switched shoes and I was hooked, it was like electricity going thru me in a very pleasurable way, I didn't want to give the shoes back; then again at 12 when I wrapped a baby blanked around me to be a skirt. Then at 19 when I wore my wife's panties and after that it really took off. I would say I was born to CD.

[reb.femme]

Hi Bima,

From my own perspective, I began at age 10 and I hit puberty at this time too. I loved the soft silky feel and still do to this day .

I think developmentally, this is akin to whether we like girls or boys or a combination of the two. I remember that I couldn't get one girl, a year lower than me, out of my head at that age. I would proffer that my adult sexual and gender identities (including my proclivity for dressing) were being written at this age and not societies enforced boundaries. Beyond this, I haven't got a clue. Totally unscientific I know, but that is me, knife, fork and spoon (old military description for a person and all his/her worldly goods) .

Rebecca

[CarlaWestin]

It's perhaps just a natural thing kids do, exploring and playing.

Bima, I should address every part of your post as I've often pondered these very same concepts. I remember all (or at least a lot of) my childhood play experiences and influences from being raised by sisters but, also influenced by a very uber-male brother, my Hero. At an early age I would fantasize about being a bound captured damsel in distress and also being a rough and tumble soldier. I used to love helping my sisters put rollers in their hair just as much as I loved using wood and nails to build stuff. I just had a real appreciation for all thing male and female. I do believe that there is some kind of falsehood about a magic fork in the road of life where you have to choose male or female. And the only right choice has to conform to your birth anatomy. Long ago, I rewarded my intellect by deciding to experience both gender worlds. And only now does it feel like society is starting to figure it out.

[kimdl93]

Nope, it's not conjecture or rationalization. It's true that memories are unreliable, often little more that little snippets of experience or emotion, knit together by our brains. And surely almost every toddlers play involves dress up games. I doubt these have any particular meaning by themselves.

Often, however, the childhood memories are corroborated by parents and siblings. And it's more than just the dress up games. Some kids, myself included displayed an array of preferences and behaviors inconsistent with birth gender. This isn't lost on parents or other family observers.


However, There is a substantial and growing body of physical evidence linking transgender identity to structures in the brain, and compelling research on the influence of various hormones on fetal development. The bulk of physical evidence points I the same direction as our collective, though less reliable memories.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I'll be the outlier here and say I have no memories of wearing Mom's clothes at an early age. My attraction to women's clothing didn't start until I was a teen, then full en femme in mid twenties. I think a study including CDs and non-CDs would bring necessary light to this common line of thought.

Bridget

[Isabella Ross]

The question posed is essentially this: Is TGism a learned/environmentally-influenced behaviour, or are you born this way? Common sense dictates that my transgenderism, like my other major personality traits and my physical characteristics, was something I was born with (very thankful that this was the case). Until someone can provide conclusive proof to the contrary, I'll remain convinced that I was born a feminine man.

[Stephanie47]

When I was young I tried on the mother's nylon full slips. We had a washing machine in the apartment, but, no dryer. She hung the laundry to dry on a clothes line she strung in the hallway to the bedrooms and in the bathroom. I loved the feel of the nylon. Early on I just caressed the material. When I got bolder I would take one of the rack in the bathroom and try it on, dry or wet. There was no desire to be a girl or go further. If she hung a floor length nylon nightgown to dry, I'd tried that on too. It wasn't until my teenage years that I ventured into her lingerie draw and found a liking for girdles, stockings and bras. I don't think a one time event of dressing for Halloween or even as punishment will create a cross dresser. I think you have to have the desire within you. I love the phrase, "The Woman Within." Then you have to be able to overcome society. Even today I've read some threads where marriages became better because "The Woman Within" is able to express herself. Sometimes I think of all the women whose talents were shut down due to male boorish behavior. Stay home a cook, clean the house, take care of the kids, and, get me my beer. I was adamant my daughter would get the same opportunities from my wife and I that our son was offered.

So, I think trying on a dress or two in one's youth does not create a cross dresser. It's either in you..or not.

[Ally 2112]

I had the urges way before i even crossdressed i tried to stop or repess the feelings .Finaly i had to give in i was about 11 and was whatching Happy Days no one was home i went and tried on one of my moms dresses from there on it only progressed .I also agree that is either in you or it is not it is just the way we are wired like it or not

[SHINY-J]

I've always had an obsession with shiny clothing and fabrics from my earliest memories. My "blankey" when I was a kid was light blue and satin, and I took that thing everywhere and rubbed it constantly. I also was able to figure out how to operate the cable box to get the "scandalous channels" late at night after my parents fell asleep and was always excited to see the beautiful women in lingerie. I've just always been infatuated with women in lingerie. To this day, I am more attracted and turned on by pictures of women in shiny lingerie or exotic clothing and shoes/boots than I am by a picture of totally nude woman with nothing on at all! It was inevitable that I would end up wearing it!

As far as the first moment I knew, however, i was about 5 or 6 and I saw Ursa in Superman 2. I saw those vinyl thigh high boots and that outfit that had the cutouts on the sleeves and legs and I wanted to dress like her SO BADLY!

image.jpg

From that point on, I was obsessed with any shiny lingerie or shoes!

[sometimes_miss]

The young age is often seen as a "proof" for that this is an inherent part of us since birth.

Again we start on the search for the 'one, true' cause of crossdressing. There ain't one. As far as the 'young age' thing, there's a problem with that, because we have several members here who didn't start crossdressing until they were in their 50's. So, the best you can hope for are clues as to why you, yourself do it. And even then, if you believe it's genetic, you have to remember that it may not be caused by one gene, but could be influenced by genes interacting with each other. And what if you did discover one cause? Because unless we all started crossdressing, or began to want to crossdress at exactly the same age, there's no reason to believe that what 'does it' to one of us is the same for all the rest. Of course, what would be included within the ages of 'early onset'? Two? Three? Four? Five? Ten? Or does any age before the onset of puberty count? And why? Then you have to address the problem of why some get turned on by wearing girl clothes, and others don't. Then figure out why some claim to be attracted to men but only when they are dressed up. And add the number who cannot refer to themselves in first person when they dress as a female, but must refer to themselves as a female in third person.
Then you have to figure out how many may subconsciously feel the absolute need to feel that it's genetic because to admit that we may have allowed something to influence us to behave or dress as females has been drummed into our minds as being the worst thing that a man could ever do. So there could be a huge impact from the guilt we feel as well.

There's a ton of things going on here. And with so many deep in the closet, and many more that cannot even admit it to themselves that they like to do this, any search about all this will very likely leave you right back where you started; with no more than a guess as to where it's all coming from.

That said, good luck, and enjoy your search. You'll find lots of information online, all kinds of experiences and theories about it as well. Mine can be found by clicking the link to my sig; I only know of two other people who experienced similar things which may have influenced us to want to crossdress.

[Tanya+]

My first time was at the insistence of a girl my age (5ish), i liked it soooo much and ran away when someone arrived in a car, cheeks bright red. But the broader environment was a distant uncommunicative dad, and i spent time with my mum. I would hang out with her as she dressed. She was my only role model really. So maybe i would have been more traditionally masculine with a more engaged dad. Who knows?

[Cheryl T]

Donning my mother's clothes at an early age (for me about 6) had no bearing on later desires. It was those early desires that were true. I always favored female attire and attitudes. I was always jealous of the clothes my neighbor girls wore, even at that young age. I preferred to play with dolls and pretend to be the mommy rather than be rough and tumble with the boys.

[pamela7]

Confirmatory bias is widespread in both "science" and no doubt human thinking. We also do it in relationship-forming, and the opposite in relationship-breaking. We actually have neurology wired for similarity and difference, matching and mismatching, but depending upon the situation one of these tends to prevail, meaning we do seek affirmatory evidence for a conclusion that for example one is TG or CD or fluid or ...?

I've noticed just in this thread examples of: "naughty" imprinting, which always goes down well with shaping the psyche, opportunistic-hedonistic imprinting - also goes down well, the search for being special or different. In many ways though, we can see the OPPOSITE of imprinting in the "natural CD'er": the presence of femininity within a male of the species reveals a resistance to the social programming, instead we have an embodied anima, a female within, and this makes us special. Probably this will also make the closet CD'er a bully's target at school though, because the bully is jealous and has lost this aspect of himself, among other reasons.

So, rather than thinking something is wrong, or that confirmatory bias is happening, come out of the box (closet-like thing) and see that this should be the default, the norm, not the closested exception, if humanity is to become humane.

Back to the OP: in my line of work i have to observe the data and then find a theory/math model that fits the data, not the other way round. My data is that the happiest/warmest-glowing I've felt in a long time, and I'm overall a happy person anyway, is receiving a letter entitled "Miss ...". I now see why "women glow and men perspire". :-)

xxx Pamela

[Sarah L]

My first time in a dress, I put it on over my own clothes and hated it.
I was so disappointed because I wanted to like it.
It was a number of years later before I tried it again..
I have said before and I'll say it again: There is nothing abnormal about wanting to wear a skirt or panties. No matter your gender.
Skirts don't grow on girl trees and pants don't grow on boy trees.
It's perfectly natural to wear what makes you feel good or comfortable.

[melissalynn]

The first time I recall wearing any female attire was when I was about 10 and my mother had a pair of shoes that were too tight on her. Given my foot was then about the same size, she asked me to walk around in them (in the house) for a few hours. I don't recall any special thrill then. It wasn't until about four years later when I started experimenting with her things. While I could wear many of her things, I never could fit in her shoes. I'm still not certain what drew me to crossdressing, but I find that reason doesn't really matter much.

[Sarah-RT]

I remember putting on my sisters make up as a child because I wanted to which I would attribute to how I am now but I also recall my sister dressing me up in a dress and hating it too but I attribute that to her forcing me to do it when I would have rather watched cartoons , with that said I don't recall hating it being a dress, I may have been before the age when you realise it's "girls" clothes but either way. I also remember cross dressing an action figure with a friends barbie clothes, why I don't know, was it childhood innocence or something else?

I do know that when I was around 12 and up that I knew I liked dressing that way