I Am Still In A Quandary

[Veronica27]

In a recent thread, I asked "what are masculinity and femininity?" and "If anyone has any personal insights as to the nature of or causes of a gender identity differing from one's biological sex, I would be very interested in hearing them?" What followed was an excellent discussion which explored these questions in depth, and to some extent raised more questions than I had originally envisioned. For that reason, I began a new thread rather than posting another reply to the original.

I googled some terminology, and found the following on Wikipedia. As the subjects are highly subjective, I see no reason to haggle about the veracity of Wikipedia:

"a) Masculinity (also called boyhood, manliness or manhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors and roles generally associated with boys and men. It is a combination of socially-defined and biological factors, distinct from the definition of the male anatomical sex......

b) Femininity (also called femininity, girlishness, womanliness or womanhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women. Femininity is often perceived as a social construct, which is made up of both socially defined and biologically created factors......

c) Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity."

I originally expressed the thought that masculinity and femininity were a social construct that simply allocated qualities that were present in both sexes, but for various reasons tended to be attributed more to one sex than the other. Reine, in her replies, went further and stressed the arbitrary nature of this attribution, as not being based on reality in regards to most qualities. (This is my own paraphrasing of her views, and she can correct me if I have it wrong). In any event, she got me to thinking that perhaps there is no such thing as masculinity and femininity, with the possible exception of a few biological differences between the sexes over which we have no control. Further, according to the above definitions, gender is simply the word which describes the sorting of things between these two concepts of masculinity and femininity. Thus we have the question that if there is no such thing as masculinity and femininity, then there is no such thing as gender, or for that matter transgender. We are simply the male sex or the female sex. (This of course excludes the other possibilities that sometimes arise such as intersex, in order to keep the basic question simplified to the basics.)

If gender and transgender are illusions, then the answer to my second question in the original thread, becomes an even greater mystery. Are we relying on a fallacy when we say we identify as being a woman, or for that matter a man, if we are physically male? In other words, do we actually know what it feels like to be either, or do we just know what it feels like to be us? 65 years ago, I had no idea why I felt the desire to wear women's clothing. 40 or so years later, I thought I was beginning to understand. Lately, I feel like I am back where I was 65 years ago.

I have some additional thoughts that arose from reading the replies, but as they are not totally on topic, and this is getting long, I will begin another thread.

Veronica

[pamela7]

check out Jung's concepts of Animus and Anima, Veronica, because depending upon what has been dissociated out or associated back in, our non-physical gender identity would seem to be an emergent consequence of this variable status.

[Katey888]

Or alternatively, have another LARGE margarita - preferably a girly.. errr.. feminine one, with a parasol and a glittery, twizzley thing and sleep on it...

I have some additional thoughts too, but I need my girly beauty sleep right now.

Goodnight cd.com - and Good Mental Health!

Katey x

[Kate Simmons]

Off hand, I'm wondering if it really matters, other than fulfilling our own or someone else's expectations of us, What's wrong with just being ourselves and enjoying that, presentation notwithstanding?

[Dana44]

Wow, Let me input from an androgynous person. My male persona is quite male in fact almost too male. My female switch is somewhat feminine and has some maleness mixed in which makes sense. Yet the feminine I feel is quite feminine. But in male mode I have very little of that feminine mixed in. But I've let the fem side come out better as I'm exploring it. I think it is beautiful when I'm female and go out on the town with my SO. However, I have the same fun in male mode. Now I do know that some here are definitely women and some are feminine. But from my viewpoint, my switching is very real and has been that way since I was born. It took me an awful long time to figure that out. I grew up as a male wondering every time I switched what was happening to me. I was confused until I was an adult and could find information on it. By the way, with a brain that is fully open. I had trouble with type A males as I saw a much bigger picture that they did. And I do know what feminine thoughts are.

[Confucius]

From what I understand: Gender Identity is dependent upon three factors: (1) Physical Features, (penis = male, vagina = female), (2) Genetics & Chromosomes, (X.Y = male, X,X = female), and (3) the Brain's Neural Network, (men and women's brains are hardwired differently). In most cases these three factors are in agreement, but incongruities are not uncommon. For instance, you can have a genetic male (X,Y chromosomes) with a defect on the SRY gene of the Y-chromosome, who will grow up appearing as a perfectly physical normal female (with vagina). These persons don't even know they are genetically male until they fail to have a menstrual period (they are sterile).

Similarly, researchers can use instruments to scan the brain's neural network in real time. These researchers can determine if a brain scan is male or female just by looking at the pattern of the neural network. However when they conduct a brain scan of a transgendered person, then the find that the pattern of the neural network is somehow between male and female. It seems to be part male, and part female. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0107082133.htm

As science progresses it becomes increasing apparent that the crossdressing/transgender spectrum is a biological condition, hard-wired in our brain's neural network. Unfortunately it continues to be treated like a psychological condition. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0213112317.htm

[KellyJameson]

Masculinity and Femininity need each other. They each exist because of the other.

I have been told that having long hair makes me more feminine than if it was short. That my eyes being large and almond shaped make them look more feminine. Similar comments about my fingers being long and slender which gives my hands a feminine appearance.

On the otherhand I have little in the way of hips and I'm small busted which some would say is less feminine than baby birthing hips and large breasts.

With men a large chest covered in hair and a deep voice may be considered masculine so enhances his masculinity.

Masculinity and Femininity definitely seem to have visual cues for most people so there is a physical component to it.

They both can be enhanced with clothing.

Than there is behavior. Masculine and feminine behavior. Some of this is learned but I think much of it comes out of temperament. A type of inherent energy that the person is endowed with.

I have noticed those who transition that do not have "the energy of the sex" as Masculinity/ Femininity that they have transitioned into, do not pass very well.

You see a woman but experience a man or vice versa.

[docrobbysherry]

I believe u may have a good point, Veronica. I was a vanilla man for 50 years. Never gave Trans or women,s clothes a second thot. Then, l began dressing and waited for my fem side to appear. I've asked in a number of threads wha a fem side feels like. The rellies sonded mysterious and confounding! They seem associate being male or female with preferences or comfort. But nothing I can relate to or comprehend.

I myself have never felt very masculine or feminine. I have only felt like me. So, maybe gender it,s an abstact consept or a social construct.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Barring a tiny number of exceptions, it's easy. One lot has male genitals, the other lot has female genitals. Everything else is a matter of presentation, ie generated by the brain.

[emma30]

I'm my opinion the way the body looks and the way the brain thinks are different but come together when dressed either way. My point is that the feminine part of the brain is permanent and so is the male therefore the way we look will determine the way we act and feel increasing the mode either way. I know this sounds obvious but I believe we all have some percentage of the brain that's both sexes and some people have more feminine than others like we have. Its not just about physicality its much more complexed.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I like and find your post very interesting Kellyjameson!

[Mayo]

I believe that there are some true biological differences between the sexes in behaviour, temperament and cognition, but that for most practical purposes these are unimportant in modern society. However, we have magnified and reified these differences into definitions of what makes a man or a woman, so now these assumptions are assigned to each person based on their biological sex regardless of how an individual prefers to express themself. I also believe that gender identity and sexual orientation are generally hardwired (based on genetic and hormonal influences during prenatal development), but that sometimes these things can become uncoupled from biological sex (and that this is 'normal' in the sense that it happens at a relatively constant rate in the population, even if that rate is fairly low). If we as a society recognized and accepted that most (though not all) of what we think of as 'masculine' or 'feminine' was largely a social construct, we wouldn't have so much trouble with those who are gender-nonconforming. Instead we have mistakenly assumed that all of the things we have culturally assigned to men or women are 'real' and biological in origin and so gender nonconformity is erroneously seen as a 'violation of the natural order' in the same way that homosexuality and miscegenation ('race-mixing') were 50 years ago.

I am still in a quandary about this myself and haven't quite figured out to my own satisfaction how much of masculinity and femininity are biological, so I'm not sure how much of TS/TG is truly innate. I'm fairly sure that at least some of it is - in a society in which there were no gender roles some people would still prefer to identify as a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth simply because gender and biological sex do not always conform. At the same time, our society magnifies the slight differences that do exist between the sexes. To a large degree, then, what we experience as the 'masculine' or 'feminine' parts of our personalities are socially defined rather than due to some real biological difference, and the need to separate them is a consequence of society's view that men and women (and the behaviours and roles that are traditionally associated with them) are mutually exclusive entities. This serves to increase the social stresses on those who do identify differently from their birth gender. If the genders were not so rigidly and exclusively defined, I think that most (but not necessarily all) TG people would simply behave as they wished and nobody would think twice about it because behaviour wouldn't be seen as gender-specific - most people would probably be 'gender-fluid' and would dress and act as they felt on any given day.

This is a personal opinion, of course, and still very much a work in progress. Feel free to criticize my interpretation if you think I have something particularly wrong. I am definitely not saying that trans people are in any way 'not real' or implying that transgenderism is entirely 'mental' or that TG folk should not be permitted and/or encouraged to transition, just as I would not say that people shouldn't be permitted to form relationships based on their sexual orientations or with people of different skin colour.