Just saying

[Chriscrossed]

...But the man that chooses to dress as a woman yet still present as a man is shunned and relegated to the trash bin. ... Just saying.

I have also experienced shaming here in the forum with a heavy all or nothing female gender-binary attitude because I was not aspiring to be passable when I dress. I made me feel initially a bit unworthy and I had a strong urge to fight back. I can usually count to ten and quickly get over those urges and find something positive to say instead.

My mantra in tough situations is to be "aggressively nice" and think about my role model SpongeBob Squarepants in season one, episode 18b "Walking Small" where he resists assertive and antagonistic behavior put on him by Plankton and channels his naturally happy energy into "overwhelmingly generous acts of kindness". It's fun to use your adrenaline for positivism.

Tolerance makes the world go round more smoothly. When we are tolerant we welcome two seemingly conflicting values in our mind simultaneously. It's a special and humane gift we can give to everyone. Personally I associate tolerance, understanding, mercy and grace as feminine characteristics so they suit us here.

I also hope that everyone and anyone would show tolerance towards me when I'm expressing my own androgynous gender bias, so I figure I should be-the-change-I-want and make an extra effort to always be tolerant of others .

"Peace", Chris Crossed.

[Steph_CD_62]

I have been here at this site for quite some time and i have noticed that there is a bias against cross dressers that do not dress all the way to pass.

First of all I would like to state that I do not post a lot here.

I don't feel that there is a bias against crossdressers that do not dress all the way to pass.

I do however see that some members get a lot of responses on their posts, while others get either none or very few.

I lurked here for a long time before I joined. I saw there was a wide spread types here, and I liked that. I saw posts of those that just underdress to those that fully dress including wigs and make-up. I see those that hide behind closed and locked doors to those that proudly go out in public. I have read stories from members that have to hide that they crossdress to their S/O to those that are fully supported by their S/O even to the point going out in public with them.

I think we all come here hoping to be accepted and finding others like ourselves. I know I can not relate to those that go out in public fully dressed and I accept that. What I was hoping was to find other that are like me. I have a supportive wife and I can dress in front of her without any issues. I have don't have much desire to go out in public, however I do underdress everyday no matter the activity I am doing. My wife is more afraid of what others might say if they see what I am wearing. She has no problem with me wearing women's jeans and shirts as long as they aren't feminine looking.

So I don feel this sight is full of snobs, just there are some cliques just like there are in life. Some members have a lot of friends are real popular and others are not.

This is only my opinion.

[Kate Simmons]

The "rule book" for cross dressing is comprised of a single sentence which reads: "There are no rules." Works for me.

[Katey888]

Vent away Majella... This place is good for a polite rant if nothing else...

I think you've just described what a cross-section of the normal world we represent - a bunch of individuals who share some aspects of a gender 'quirk', but with their own individual values, beliefs, bias and bigotry... All fairly representative of human behaviour, at it's best and worst.

Personally, I find our non-femulating members fascinating and courageous... and although you might be in a minority in this community, you're still a very valid part of it - but hell yeah! Have a bit of a justified pop at the ones that continue to believe that there's only one way to address this weird and fabulous urge when clearly they're wrong...

Katey x

[pamela7]

Hi Majella,
I'm one of those "man in a dress" types, and I don't feel discriminated against here (mostly), sometimes over-zealously censored but that's another story.
We are certainly a small minority, but I'd hope the CD world would accept small minorities, and by-and-large i feel that to be true here, else I'd not stay.

Perhaps some examples might help us all see this issue more clearly?

xxx Pamela

[Krisi]

This is a forum for male to female crossdressers. The term "crossdresser" includes a man who wears women's panties or throws on a dress all the way up the man who goes all out to present as a woman with a wig or natural long hair, breast forms, hip and butt padding, shaved legs and arms, painted nails and full makeup. We all fit the label.

Just as with "normal" people, we are individuals and all have our likes and dislikes and our prejudices. If you post a photo of yourself wearing a dress but with no attempt to look like a female, you shouldn't expect a lot of "you look great in that dress" comments. That's life. It would be dishonest to post compliments just to be polite.

Do what you wish, that is your right, but be realistic about how others will feel about you.

BTW: There are many genetic female truck drivers. You don't need balls to drive a truck.

[Ally 2112]

Everyone here is different and not all of us can be the popular girl .Just keep posting and you will make friends worked for me and im thankful

[CynthiaD]

I've actually done both man-in-a-dress and attempting-to-pass. I seldom dress to the nines, but I've done some of that too. I prefer attempting-to-pass as an ordinary woman (not dressed to the nines), but they all have their charm.

[Infused]

This is an interesting post and so many great replies. I have also seen some bias and a few comments that are offensive. I have to say I am guilty of writing that come across the wrong way, rude, ignorant or offensive, but totally unintentional. Someone needs to invent sarcastic quotes for the internet, like really. Overall, everyone here is friendly, accepting and no one goes out of their way to insult others.
I understand the whole "guy in a dress" spectacle. I really don't think many crossdressers do it for the shock value or attention, in fact most of us have kept it a total secret for years. No one would take going out dressed lightly, whether trying to fully pass as a woman or being a "man in a dress" or anything in between, it must be done appropriately. I think the truth is most crossdressers will never truly pass as female, and some don't want to either. It's okay if people look at me and know I am male, whether they think I look good or just don't care, but I don't intend to make a scene or make people uncomfortable. The people that inspire me the most are the ones that are comfortable with who they are, have found what they want and just do it. If it makes you happy then it makes me happy.

[Eryn]

Ever notice that when someone says "Just Saying" there is nothing that they consider trivial in what they say?

There may indeed be a bias here, but it is just one of many. I'm considered inferior by a couple of elites because I'm a TS who isn't yet out at work and who joins discussions in the MTF forum. In turn I've been called elitist myself when said that I wasn't comfortable with sexual fetishists calling themselves crossdressers.

I don't think that it is possible to carry on a discussion without occasionally stepping on some toes, mostly over semantics.

For the record, I have a lot of respect for the androgynous and man-in-dress crowds. They aren't hurting anyone and may well be furthering our acceptance more than those of us who strive to blend.

[Robin414]

Awesome points Eryn, I ditto ALL of them!

[Gillian Gigs]

There may indeed be a bias here, but it is just one of many. I'm considered inferior by a couple of elites because I'm a TS who isn't yet out at work and who joins discussions in the MTF forum. In turn I've been called elitist myself when said that I wasn't comfortable with sexual fetishists calling themselves crossdressers.

For the record, I have a lot of respect for the androgynous and man-in-dress crowds. They aren't hurting anyone and may well be furthering our acceptance more than those of us who strive to blend.

I don't think it is possible to be unbias about anything that is up close and personal. It more how can I keep the bias under control, and not step on too many toes!

I am all for freedom, whether it is freedom of speech, or freedom to wear what you want. With freedom comes responcibility, and that is to not be offensive, hatefull, or tacky. With the way society is going, who knows what kind of apparel we will be wearing in 20 years.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o MSG.
With initials like that you should know... It takes more than pure MSG to make
a dish taste good. MSG is actually just a tiny portion of the ingredients, but without it something very important is missing!
I may not post a reply to your threads, but there are hundreds of other threads that I don't reply to either.
Is it because I think what your doing is wrong? Not at all, it's more like, It's just not my thing. I don't get it.
I also feel...
Anyone that thinks the "man in a dress" is putting a poor reflection on the whole community is just as you've called it,
a snob! Those that feel that way ought to worry more about their own presentation, and how the public perceives them, rather than worrying how a "man in a dress" is affecting the public perception of the community.

But to say this place is full of a bunch of snobs????? There's a saying about a pot and a kettle that I'm reminded of here.
Sure there may be a few, but you may want to rethink that comment! Just sayin'!

Much Love,
Kristyn

[Chriscrossed]

I agree with your sentiment Kristyn (Hell on Heels)

After reading your post I got to thinking that it would be pretty boring here if we all treated one another with kid gloves. An always politically correct sanitized forum would feel emotionally restrictive. I want people here to feel free to voice their feelings and opinions freely, be willing to take risks and say what's on your mind. I also would like everyone to feel entitled to be feminine and fickle. You can change your opinion on a dime, turn 180 degrees and have a new opinion and you don't have to explain yourself. That's the kind of place where you can have conversations, learn new things, grow emotionally and evolve new values/opinions. So let's not lose our spark. Earlier I was pontificating about being tolerant, but now I think getting into little cat-fighting from time to time might be healthy too.

[LaurenS]

I don't see a pattern to bias towards certain types (whatever that means), just individuals with bias and judgement. For me, the world is what you make of it. Each of us are beautiful, each of us are unique, and labels are useless.

For many of us, it is hard to stay on the empathy train without lazily falling back into indoctrinated biases and stereotypes. It takes a lot of effort to break free. Many never do, but that's okay too.

Don't know where I was going with that. Anyway, enough amateur philosophy.

[Bonnie Chan]

This is a forum for male to female crossdressers. The term "crossdresser" includes a man who wears women's panties or throws on a dress all the way up the man who goes all out to present as a woman with a wig or natural long hair, breast forms, hip and butt padding, shaved legs and arms, painted nails and full makeup. We all fit the label.

Just as with "normal" people, we are individuals and all have our likes and dislikes and our prejudices. If you post a photo of yourself wearing a dress but with no attempt to look like a female, you shouldn't expect a lot of "you look great in that dress" comments. That's life. It would be dishonest to post compliments just to be polite.

Do what you wish, that is your right, but be realistic about how others will feel about you.

BTW: There are many genetic female truck drivers. You don't need balls to drive a truck.

I would like to double Krisi's comment about being realistic. Most people (not all) here are crossdressing to pass as female as their ultimate goal. So when we see other people who made an effort to pass, even if she does not really pass, we will still comment to encourage and give some tips for an improvement to help each other achieve their goal.
Some who really pass well and look good, perceived by our current world fashion, obviously will get a lot of comments.

To be honest, I myself for one would not know what to comment or respond if I'm seeing someone who's a "dude in a dress" and does not attempt to pass as a female. I just don't understand those people, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them.
As Krisi mentioned, it would be dishonest to compliment if people don't think you look good. It's just people fashion sense today doesn't fit well with yours. But who knows, you might be leading a new fashion style for "men in dress".

Talking about bias, I would say you have a bias yourself that people don't like your posts and conclude this site is full of whatever you called without thinking it thoroughly first of what could be the other reasons why people don't comment on your posts. You could have been a bit more opinionated and ask for questions rather than bluntly offending people. It's fine to vent out and I understand emotionally you might have not been able to control your words (which happens to me sometimes and I believe others do too). But when you realized you did something wrong you should make an apology for it to compensate for troubling others, which I have not yet to see. I do respect people who accept their own mistakes as that does take courage to do so.

Just Sayin'
- Bonnie

[Belle De Mer]

Bonnie, I just have to say that you have a definite gift for articulating the truth in a very tactful manner. Thanks for keeping the discussion classy !

[Angie G]

I livw and let live. I don't always dress to the nines I'm not right now. If you just wish to wear a skirt juts wear a skirt. There are a lot of girls here that don't judge.
Angie

[Robinadress]

As one group we are very different compared to each other. The general crowd outside crossdressing thinks what we all do is odd. Most of us want to be accepted. I think that when someone is expressing their crossdressing different from what we do our self, we don’t understand why it is done in that way. We also can happen to think it is a bit odd. Think about that the next time you criticize someone else. Many of us may not be better than the ones we are criticizing in the general crowd who are laughing of us or being rude.

I think when someone else is crossdressing different from us self in the public we can not identify to them. But, we know that people outside think we are one group. Then we know we are being compared to this one person when we really don’t have anything in common.

Here in Norway there is one person that is totally open and often in the media being a crossdresser. He/she is one day presenting as a male, and the next day being totally female. Everyone who knows this side of me compare what I do to what he/she does. I don’t see any similarity to us at all. I can’t blame my friends to think that way. I am impressed what he/she does for the crossdressing community even though I don’t identify with him/her. Who am I to criticize this person. I could have been more open myself, but I don’t risk that unfortunately.

I saw the same when I before sometimes went to gay clubs dressed. I thought it would be safer. I have never been criticized more than I did in these places. In the general crowd many people think we are gay. The gay community knows this too, and they are feeling threatened by us because many think we are odd. They have fought a long time to be accepted as normal and we are disturbing that. We have to go out in the world and show the world that we are normal too. When I stopped going to gay clubs and instead went to straight clubs I received so much support. The straight people don’t feel threatened by us.

As a conclusion I think we as a group must be acceptable to each other even though we are not similar. We must not feel threatened that others are expressing crossdressing different from our self. We must stand together and support each other so we can show the world that we too are normal people and people will be more used to us out in the society.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

There's a current flowing in the centre of this river, and those not in the centre may find themselves becalmed. Having a fair amount of silt in my knickers I count myself lucky to be afloat at all.

I feel a quote from The Wind In The Willows coming on- just yesterday I discovered a new mole on my neck and it's making me a bit ratty.

Kisses, Nikki

[Chriscrossed]

As a conclusion I think we as a group must be acceptable to each other even though we are not similar. We must not feel threatened that others are expressing crossdressing different from our self. We must stand together and support each other so we can show the world that we too are normal people and people will be more used to us out in the society.

These days are pregnant with opportunity. There is more positive sentiment towards all of us crossdressers than ever before. I dare say that it is becoming common knowledge that crossdressers are individuals who enjoy dressing for a variety of different reasons. Media has even started to discuss the idea that we are compelled to express ourselves in feminine attire for "natural" reasons like our LGBT brothers and sisters. Commonplace acceptance is coming soon. I think we have turned a corner in 2015 and the trend is for crossdressers to come out and we are going to see a real healthy decline in closeted crossdressers. Another wonderful thing is that we are also going to see a lot more beautiful "wildflowers" like Robinadress who pop up delightfully outside the cultivated garden.

I propose that we see ourselves as a bouquet of flowers together; alone we are individually pretty but together we are magnificent.

Chris Crossed.

P.S. I could see myself as an Alstroemeria or Peruvian Lily, a small delicate lily -but- very long lasting. What kid of flower are you?

[Krisi]

Chris Crossed, things are either very different in Northern Europe than they are in the USA or you are living in a dream world. Or perhaps you are posting what you posted in the hopes that people will believe it and start "accepting" crossdressers where they otherwise wouldn't.

We are a special group of people on this crossdressing forum. We don't represent the norm. Even when we shut down our computers and venture outside, many of us look for friends and communities similar to ourselves so our experiences and thoughts are skewed.

The only crossdresser I've seen in public is my own reflection in a store window. Crossdressers I see on TV are in comedy roles. I don't see them as news reporters or anything serious. When someone puts a photo of Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner on Facebook, all I see are negative comments. When I shop, I don't see skirts or blouses in the men's department and I see no sign of men's clothing becoming more feminine.

Dress codes for men and women have been part of civilization since the time humans decided they needed to cover their bodies. Styles have changed over the years, but there are still different expectations for males and females. It would be pretty naïve to think that this will change overnight or even next year.

[Robinadress]

Dear Krissi

I am shore you have saved many people in this forum from doing things they would regret while they have been in the pink fog. You are constantly reminding us all of the worst case scenarios that can happen. We need to be reminded about that before we make decisions that can’t be withdrawn. I really respect that, and thank you for doing that. But, there isn’t this strategy that leads us to acceptance out in the society. It is because of this strategy that most people in the society still think what we do is odd. ChrisCrossed is right, that it is something happening in acceptance at least in northern Europe. We all have to risk something to make progress on our way for acceptance. If the gay community hadn’t had anyone that took that risk, they would still risking going to jail for being who they are today. I know most of us aren’t gay, but there are a lot of similarities. The only difference is that we are 50 years behind them in acceptance. We can learn from what they have done.

I don’t live in USA, but I have been there several times. This spring I was in New York. I saw all kinds of crossdressers every day without any reactions from the public. I know, New York isn’t representative for the USA. I have friends that don’t know I crossdress in the USA, and I have also been several times to Portland, Oregon, and several times in Ohio. Both places I have seen much more crossdressers out in public than I have seen in Norway. They were accepted and I didn’t see any reactions from the people they passed. I was so glad to see this. I don’t believe you are explaining the situation in USA correctly. USA is a big continent with big regional differences, but of course it may be like that where you are from. You shouldn’t generalize the whole continent as one. Comments like that can slow down the progress to acceptance for us all because it may stop crossdressers from going out and showing the world that we exist.

You are absolutely right that people think what we do is strange, and I am shore you are right about people talking about us. I experience very few comments when I am out, but I know that some will talk about me behind my back in a bad way. Why should I bother about that. I am out to a lot of my friends, and I am only out to a few people at work. It hasn’t destroyed my carrier or reputation and they are still my colleagues and friends. The people I have read about in this forum that has chosen to be open where they work have had a very positive experience. I thank all of you that have done that and that you took that risk on behalf of us all.

I really respect you, and I don’t want to start a fight. I just want a debate on how we as a group should achieve more acceptance so that we don’t need to feel ashamed of what we do. I also want those still in the closet that don’t dare to come out because they are ashamed to come out under the blue sky.

All the best from
Robinadress

[Chriscrossed]

Chris Crossed, things are either very different in Northern Europe than they are in the USA ...

Dear Krissi...I don’t live in USA, but ...

It's true, things really are different here in the Nordics for minorities, it's dreamy. (teasing )

In my last post I also rambled and started talking about two topics at once and I think I watered down the good stuff I tried to say. My big idea (replying to the original 'just saying' post) is that since we are all different here with a wide range of values and ideas we make up a more interesting bunch together. The bouquet metaphor was a fun way to represent togetherness as beautiful.

Chris Crossed.

P.S. Rob you really write well in english as a second language.

[Sara Jessica]

I also feel...
Anyone that thinks the "man in a dress" is putting a poor reflection on the whole community is just as you've called it,
a snob! Those that feel that way ought to worry more about their own presentation, and how the public perceives them, rather than worrying how a "man in a dress" is affecting the public perception of the community.

I've admitted this in the past and I'm not going to shy away from it now. I used to have a really hard time getting my head around the man-in-a-dress thing. This came from a number of sources.

1) We live in a gender binary society (for better or for worse).

2) I was drafted to the wrong team.

3) I have several TS friends and came to a conclusion (right or wrong) that because the average Muggle doesn't have a clue as to what species of trans they might encounter in the wild, we get lumped together based on their own perceptions. And we all know perception is reality, at least to the perceiver.

On that note, I pledged years ago to do the absolute best I am able when presenting as a female when out & about. This not only has to do with furthering my own self-actualization but I also do it out of absolute respect for the trans women out there who are living this 24/7 and cannot retreat back to being a guy if and when the going gets tough.

This has worked for me but regardless, through reading the writings of several in these pages who are in the man-in-a-dress camp, I have made strides in getting my head around their point of view. Whether or not I am destined to become fully evolved in this regard, time still must tell because I have not spent any appreciable time talking in person to any of these neat people. If this made me a snob or still puts me in that camp, so be it. At least I'm an honest snob.

At this moment I not convinced either way whether such man-in-dress presentation helps or hurts the cause of our ENTIRE community. A few years back I'd have said it hurts. These days call me neutral on the subject. At least my mind remains open.

I don’t live in USA, but I have been there several times. This spring I was in New York. I saw all kinds of crossdressers every day without any reactions from the public.

Speaking of trans in the wild, I'm impressed. I guess I don't get out much regardless of spending a fair amount of time in SF, Los Angeles and SD, not to mention a greater amount of time in suburbia. In all my years of paying attention to these things, I can count the number of trans I have seen in the wild perhaps on two hands (not including those who are attending an event that I am at or of course the sex workers in SF's Tenderloin district). We are simply not all that prevalent which is one reason I don't see a significant shift in society when it comes to CD'ing, whether fully presenting as women or men co-opting clothing "intended" for the other side of the gender binary. Unless of course we see a reality show called I Am (Sometimes) __________ (insert random female name here) in which the Muggles get a glimpse into what makes a part-timer tick.