Bathrooms, Discontinuity and Our Community

[LeaP]

If the point in question is *splitting* a constituency, it has to be wider than men using women restrooms. Presumably it's everyone under the umbrella, or perhaps on the spectrum (it wasn't specified). It's a perfect example of deriving an identity (the constituency) from a theoretical construct (the spectrum or umbrella). It also illustrates my conclusion ... that someone loses. In this case, it's transsexuals.

Back to the spectrum itself. What, exactly, is the subject of the spectrum? Gender feelings? Transition need? Homosexual leanings (in the original sexual inversion sense ... which is the great progenitor of the spectrum notion behind the gender spectrum)? Disorder? Dressing urgency? Age? Passability? Femininity/Masculinity? Behavior? Attitudes? Stereotype conformity?

Oh, you say, gender IDENTITY! As if THAT'S crystal clear ... (not) Let's start with the idea of gender as opposed to sex. It's an academic invention. That it is constantly conflated and confused with one's inner sense of SEX doesn't help. The transsexual dilemma is the conflict between their actual sex and what they are biologically geared to expect. In a MtF context, a male expects to see and experience a female body. It's a body mapping issue. That's it. It may manifest as conflict and dysphoria ... or not. It may manifest as pschological symptoms masking or substituting for the actual issue ... or not. It makes some suicidal ... and some not. But they all share the same issue. And they may experience it in terms of gender in the sociological sense ... or not.

In short, the spectrum idea doesn't help. It obfuscates complex phenomena via overgeneralization, to put it mildly. Beyond the overgeneralization, though, is the biggest swamp of all - that the spectrum is always ultimately plotted on a male to female axis. You can't reduce individual identity to such a scale, even if the scale's plot has some population-level validity. To do so is to make the most common mistake in practical statistics. Even if you use proper plots - and they are rarely linear anyway - if an individual falls so far outside its bounds that it's unmeasurable, it STILL doesn't force the conclusion (i.e., in this case that one is or isn't a woman or a man or something else). It's rubbish at the individual level. It's usability lies elsewhere, which is another topic. BTW, the same comments apply to multi-dimensional approaches.

[flatlander_48]

LP:

In the sense that we are ALL gender outlaws in one way or another, there is strength in numbers. Society at large tends to lump us all together, yet we have little cohesiveness. If you and I are walking together and we're accosted by someone, is it logical to assume that a distinction between us will be made? No, of course not. That's why, regardless of where we fall on the spectrum, we need to be united. We need to be allies for each other. At the very least, we each have some of the narrative for the other.

DeeAnn

[LeaP]

Only if we are advocating for the same things, have the same or compatible goals and timelines, or are advocating for one another. We are not. (Collective sense.)

[flatlander_48]

We are not.

And that would be the problem.

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

Only if we are advocating for the same things, have the same or compatible goals and timelines, or are advocating for one another. We are not. (Collective sense.)

Maybe you are not, but you don't speak for others, including me.

We're all under attack by the fundies and emphasizing divisions within our community only helps their cause of hatred.

[Kate T]

Yes, insofar as when you organize books by author name, you can end up with cookbooks next to auto repair guides. The library is great, because there are lots of books, of all different sorts. We categorize things there too, because otherwise it's too difficult to find what you're looking for. If your library had one shelf called "All The Books", you would probably find that odd.

Extending the metaphor yes and no Zoe. Yes if you are researching a particular topic then having all the books together under the Dewy decimal system or similar can be helpful. BUT I actually find it far more fascinating going in to peoples libraries that aren't organised and just having a look at the shelf, and you will see all sorts of fascinating and interesting books and stories that you may never have found if you had just been perusing Dewy decimal section 306-307 in a library. AND believe me, having spent 5 + years in university libraries researching, sometimes the most important information actually comes from outside the section you expect to find it in.

[Badtranny]

Let's not forget that this is the TS forum and MOST of the girls that hang out here have stepped into the light. We have no dark corners to hide in anymore. There was a time in my transition when I was very obviously transitioning and therefore indistinguishable from a crossdresser. That time has thankfully passed for me and bathrooms are no longer an issue.

It definitely used to be though, and I would choose either based on how passable I felt that day. If I had no makeup on and I was feeling particularly butch, I would use the men's because I just didn't want to deal with the drama. There were some days when I would rather be an obvious tranny in the men's room than the same thing in the ladies room. Transition is a long weird road and I truly don't recommend it but this is my life and I have earned my passing privilege.

I have made the sacrifices. I have walked the walk through the fire of transition and my reward is unfettered access to the ladies toilet. ...totally worth it right?

The oddest thing about this particular thread is the idea that CD's who are admitted men, in fact many of them have said that they are "all man" feel entitled to use women's restrooms simply because they are 'dressed'. Personally I'm cool with it, because I don't think women are precious or delicate and I don't romanticize bathrooms, but does anyone who has not been through the rigors of a public gender transition have the ability to recognize the difference?

[LeaP]

Maybe you are not, but you don't speak for others, including me.

Nope. Don't want to, either. My sweeping generalization ("we") referred to what I see as the majority TS view. It was not an arrogation of representation.

We're all under attack by the fundies and emphasizing divisions within our community only helps their cause of hatred.

Please see my comments on TS losses elsewhere in the thread. I would say the "community" is inflaming the situation, among other problems.

[Rianna Humble]

Only if we are advocating for the same things, have the same or compatible goals and timelines, or are advocating for one another. We are not. (Collective sense.)

Maybe you are not, but you don't speak for others, including me.

That is a perfect illustration of what LeaP is saying! Collectively, we don't speak with the same voice and don't advocate the same thing. By distancing yourself from what she says, you confirm that we don't speak with the same voice.

We're all under attack by the fundies and emphasizing divisions within our community only helps their cause of hatred.

Unfortunately, the division is not diminished when it is perpetuated by people who claim "we are all the same" but rush to condemn transsexuals as has happened repeatedly in the Media section over recent months. If they do it in the relative privacy of a safe space such as this, what do you think they are saying in public?

[becky77]

The sliding scale spectrum/Umbrella idea only works if the entrance criteria is people that dress as the opposite sex, be it crossdressers or Drag queen or TG.
If you include Gender issues that rules out most Drag and male or female identified CDers, these people don't have GD issues in the majority.

So removing GD or identity from the umbrella, you are left with those who dress as the opposite sex again, this is fundamentally flawed for TS people because their clothes match their internal Gender identity, therefore not Crossdressing.

This is why a lot of TS don't want to be included, if you include us you are by default saying we are closer to a recreational dresser or Drag queen than we are to being a real woman/man.
It's totally invalidating and counter productive.

When I was 5 and born a boy I started to realise I preferred Girls things, probably a similar story for many Crossdressers, in those early years we share a similarly.
But then our paths (due to Identity) start to diverge so drastically that we become nothing alike.
Put me in a group of Crossdressers and I won't fit in, put me in a group of women and it feels normal.
Then someone comes along and says 'excuse me you don't belong with those women, you belong with those men in dresses' great, thanks very much for trying to alienate me!

You can keep your Umbrella I'd rather get wet.

[Zooey]

Odd is splintering a constituency. I have yet to see a useful purpose come from that.

Extending the metaphor yes and no Zoe. Yes if you are researching a particular topic then having all the books together under the Dewy decimal system or similar can be helpful. BUT I actually find it far more fascinating going in to peoples libraries that aren't organised and just having a look at the shelf, and you will see all sorts of fascinating and interesting books and stories that you may never have found if you had just been perusing Dewy decimal section 306-307 in a library. AND believe me, having spent 5 + years in university libraries researching, sometimes the most important information actually comes from outside the section you expect to find it in.

Ugh, okay, I'm clearly failing to make my point here.

I value diversity in life. I AM an ally to all sorts of gender-variant or nonconforming people. I know many of them, and I think most of them are just great. Being an ally to each other does not mean we're all the same, and I think it's damaging when people try to assert that we are. I believe that, to the extent that we actually have a broader community/"constituency", we present a stronger vision of peace and tolerance by acknowledging, respecting, and embracing differences rather than trying to deny them.

[flatlander_48]

Z:

I NEVER said that we are all the same. We clearly are not. What I said was that society tends to lump us together. However, the point is that if it isn't safe for you, it is not safe for me. If it is not safe for me, it is not safe for you. People don't go around saying "Those transgender folks are OK, it's those damned transsexuals I hate.".

DeeAnn

[becky77]

I'm not opposed to the Umbrella idea, I just don't think everyone fits into it and our goals are different, therefore it creates more friction than good.
It tries to be too all encompassing.

Just going back to using female/male only facilities.
As a TS person I want the right to be treated as a woman and therefore use the female facilities.
A TG person perhaps Gender fluid, should be fighting for either Genderless toilets or a separate toilet.

There isn't enough recognition for all the inbetweeners, their day will come but they won't get the help they need while grouping together with TS people, similar fight but not the same.

Personally I haven't got an issue with mixed changing rooms, but some body conscious woman may have.
Toilets I have got an issue, women's toilets are far cleaner on average. It was hard to find a cubicle in the men's that didn't have urine splashed all over it.
It's lovely using toilets that men can't splash all over, I don't really want that to change sorry.
There are always exceptions but most of the time the ladies are a lot cleaner.

Contrary to how my posts probably sound I haven't got anything against CDers, I'm just fiercely defensive of my own identity.

Returning to the Umbrella, what are we all aiming for?
I want to be treated as a woman
Does a Crossdresser, truly want to be treated as a woman?
I would have thought the ideal for a MtF CD would be to have the freedom to dress as a woman or feminine, without their sexuality or masculinity questioned. To have the right and confidence to be different and not fit into a box.

One fights to break away from the binary, one fights to fit into the binary. That's such a huge difference that it makes a sliding scale pointless and a unified front impossible.

So what does the Umbrella achieve that hasn't already been challenged by TS people, what does a CDer gain by being included?

Cause like it or not TS are the figureheads as they are the most visible, yet what I read on the CD forum most don't want to be associated with being TS.

[pamela7]

As a late-awakener I've been placed, here on this forum in the past, in a whole category of "you're not a real TG/CD cos you didn't do it since you were 4". Thanks! However the fact is we all so stunningly different: 10 billion different humans, sharing a mostly common form with only one head (excepting conjoint ...). Humanity is diverse, we've established that the T world is as diverse as the whole rest of humanity, therefore, the only umbrella is "human" (we even take exception to that one sometimes).

Banging on that restroom door again tho, my daughter's uni went unisex in the union building, they have had rapes in there. Protecting the physically weaker sex is the reason to segregate restrooms in a violent/out-of-control society. Last night I got the tiniest taste of feeling violated, not going into it here, but it confirms to me really why separate is best until society evolves.

[Badtranny]

yet what I read on the CD forum most don't want to be associated with being TS.

Spot on.

They do not identify with us, yet they feel like their bathroom issue is our bathroom issue, except that they can change clothes. What they can't possibly understand is that this issue goes much deeper than presentation. After transition I was forbidden to use the ladies restrooms in my workplace. My presentation did not matter, nor did the 'F' on my driver's license.


Today I work at a rather large university with plenty of restrooms (including gender neutral) spread all over campus. There is one very busy restroom at our main office that should be a little bit bigger for the traffic but everyone is polite and cordial when the stalls are full and we start stacking up at the sink. I ran into one of the gals that was on my interview panel in there one day and we had a great quick conversation. It's kinda funny how it becomes a little meeting place for women that may only run into each other there, since their daily duties are on opposite sides of the building. As I said earlier, my passing game is complete now and though I'm a big gal these days (5'11" 200lbs) all of the work (surgery and otherwise) has paid off and I rarely get a second look anymore. My medical history is known by a few but they are scattered all over the university and as far as I know, they don't talk much about it. Have I finally come to a place where I can relax and begin my new life? Perhaps.

...but I wonder. What will happen when my history becomes common knowledge? My experience so far is that it always does. How will that change the dynamic in the crowded restroom? Will the other women treat me differently? Will any of them complain or say that I make them uncomfortable? Only time will tell, but this is what we live with. If you think passing is the holy grail that makes everything better then you're simply not living the life. Passing used to be the endgame for me, only now do I realize that it's just another step. This whole bathroom issue is simply a way for a certain political and religious segment of the population to claim the 'moral high ground' and I know for sure that people like me aren't the ones getting the stink eye. It's only the obvious 'girls' that arouse their ire. To that I say, I will fight for their right to poop in comfort BUT the CD's need to understand and acknowledge that theirs is fundamentally a different battle.

To those that would dismiss my comments due to my passing privilege I would say this; I only pass today because I made a commitment nearly 5 years ago. When I went fulltime in 2012 I was not exactly passing with flying colors. More like with rainbow colors, but I could sense the work was beginning to pay off. 3 years later I am finally 'invisible', but I've had too many procedures to remember and my body is scarred from various implants and several rounds of lipo sculpting. What you see today is the result of a laser like focus on a goal. I have been lucky but I have also been ruthlessly persistent. My bathroom privilege is possible for most TS women but it starts out from the same place every CD stands. The difference is we come out and do the work. We take the hate right out in the open every day and little by little all of our work starts to catch up with us. The HRT, the hair removal, the procedures, the dieting, etc etc. We make the commitment to change our lives and we are eventually rewarded with a grudging acknowledgement that we belong.

The women's restroom the last frontier of gender equality? Does the weekend CD hurt us or help us?

[Zooey]

I NEVER said that we are all the same. We clearly are not. What I said was that society tends to lump us together.

Let me try again to make my point...

I find myself worried/concerned about, and in some cases annoyed by, these fundamental differences in perspective when they are not acknowledged. A surefire way to perpetuate misunderstanding is to foster a culture where people are having (in some cases) radically different conversations while using exactly the same words. We have to acknowledge what we're actually talking about, which means understanding the context, which means - wait for it - embracing the fact that we have fundamental differences in perspective when crossing certain lines in this community and being honest about it.

However, the point is that if it isn't safe for you, it is not safe for me. If it is not safe for me, it is not safe for you. People don't go around saying "Those transgender folks are OK, it's those damned transsexuals I hate.".

To my point, I disagree with your premise here. My perspective on why I should be/am allowed to use the women's facilities has next to nothing to do with my (also strongly held) belief that e.g CDs should not be forced into the men's room. We are fighting for different things. As Becky said, I am not fighting for the right to choose a bathroom - I am fighting for being acknowledged as the woman I am, which happens to imply a bunch of things.

[Eryn]

As a late-awakener I've been placed, here on this forum in the past, in a whole category of "you're not a real TG/CD cos you didn't do it since you were 4".

I'm right there with you, late blooming Sister! Still, I don't feel like we should build a separate clubhouse because others "can't possible know what it's like to be exactly like us!"

A sense of general empathy along with a lack of hostility is all that should be required to get along.

Cause like it or not TS are the figureheads as they are the most visible, yet what I read on the CD forum most don't want to be associated with being TS.

Could you please post a link to a post where this is expressed? I don't recall a post there stating that CDers want to be disassociated from the TS end of the spectrum.

The only place in the overall community where I've see that attitude is in the old guard of CDing like the original Triess where the goal is "don't scare the wives." This is a very small (and getting smaller), part of the TG spectrum today.

[flatlander_48]

There isn't enough recognition for all the inbetweeners, their day will come but they won't get the help they need while grouping together with TS people, similar fight but not the same.

That sounds like what people might have said when they took T part out of the anti-discrimination legislation.

Toilets I have got an issue, women's toilets are far cleaner on average. It was hard to find a cubicle in the men's that didn't have urine splashed all over it.
It's lovely using toilets that men can't splash all over, I don't really want that to change sorry.
There are always exceptions but most of the time the ladies are a lot cleaner.

That's foreign to my experience and I'm a lot older than you. Besides, what you describe would be a maintenance issue and is not substantitive.

Contrary to how my posts probably sound I haven't got anything against CDers, I'm just fiercely defensive of my own identity.

And who said you should be something else?

One fights to break away from the binary, one fights to fit into the binary. That's such a huge difference that it makes a sliding scale pointless and a unified front impossible.

Then I guess all of the effort that we (the LGBT affinity group that I am a part of) put into getting our employer to support GENDA and add transgender health benefits was wasted effort because NONE of us will benefit from it is ANY way. Silly us.

So what does the Umbrella achieve that hasn't already been challenged by TS people, what does a CDer gain by being included?

And what are the results of that challenge?

Cause like it or not TS are the figureheads as they are the most visible, yet what I read on the CD forum most don't want to be associated with being TS.

Visible? How can that be when folks talk about distancing themselves from the community because they want to be seen as women and not transsexuals? Those 2 things are in direct opposition. Please explain how that can happen.

The difference is we come out and do the work.

I don't know. Have you ever outed yourself in front of 130 people?

Let me try again to make my point...

No, do you believe that society at large makes a distinction between crossdressers, transgender people and transexuals?

Further, WHY are we talking about bathrooms when about 2/3 of the US states have little or no legal protection for transgender people? I think all this angst is misplaced.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

I don't know. Have you ever outed yourself in front of 130 people?

I've outed myself to EVERYONE I know. There is no other way to transition. Everyone I worked with, everyone in my industry, everyone in my neighborhood. Those first couple of years of transition ain't exactly stealth honey.

[flatlander_48]

I meant 130 at once and 200+ in less than 3 weeks...

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

I meant 130 at once and 200+ in less than 3 weeks...

I came out to over 400 people, mostly from high school (in a rather transphobic part of Michigan) and college, with a single post on Facebook on Thursday. I came out to over 600 people in my office the same day. Does that count, or does it need to be on-stage? I "come out" every time I leave the house right now, because this. is. my. life.

Also..

No, do you believe that society at large makes a distinction between crossdressers, transgender people and transexuals?

Further, WHY are we talking about bathrooms when about 2/3 of the US states have little or no legal protection for transgender people? I think all this angst is misplaced.

I believe they should, and when we're discussing things where it matters, I believe we should too.

While I understand that others have turned this more specifically into a bathroom thread, I am merely using bathrooms as an example of an issue. We are all talking about safe access to appropriate restrooms, but we are coming at this from fundamentally different places, no matter how similar they may look to others. I think it's worth acknowledging that fact, because there is a big difference IMO between, for example, asking people to recognize transwomen as women, and asking people to support a bathroom free-for-all. Or, at least, there should be.

[flatlander_48]

I came out to over 400 people, mostly from high school (in a rather transphobic part of Michigan) and college, with a single post on Facebook on Thursday. I came out to over 600 people in my office the same day. Does that count, or does it need to be on-stage? I "come out" every time I leave the house right now, because this. is. my. life.

I made the statement because there are those here who say that no one other than transsexuals ever come out and that we hide behind being able to change our clothes. Note that similar rhetoric has always been leveled at bisexuals (and I'm one of those too). And for the 130, I was on stage, dressed. I did the Mistress of Ceremonies duties for our affinity group's annual event. I captured all of what I did in October in a thread on the main forum. I also came out during a monthly meeting held by our CTO which includes about 50 people (of which my division VP is one) and presented the transgender part of a training session for 20+ people. Beyond that, I've come out to my department manager, 7-8 close friends and my daughter and son. Anyway, this is just information so you know where I'm coming from.

I believe they should, and when we're discussing things where it matters, I believe we should too.

While I understand that others have turned this more specifically into a bathroom thread, I am merely using bathrooms as an example of an issue. We are all talking about safe access to appropriate restrooms, but we are coming at this from fundamentally different places, no matter how similar they may look to others. I think it's worth acknowledging that fact, because there is a big difference IMO between, for example, asking people to recognize transwomen as women, and asking people to support a bathroom free-for-all. Or, at least, there should be.

If I understand correctly, don't people have to essentially live as their proper gender before they get approval to embark on whatever transition process they are going to persue? I would assume that in order to live as their proper gender, they should begin to attempt to look like people of that gender during this period. There isn't anything to prevent them from being challenged by women in the women's restroom. Presumably they would have cogent documentation from their physician or mental health professional, but that won't keep them from getting challenged. That would seem to be humiliating to me. Using the men's restroom would not seem to be a good alternative. The only tangible difference between me and the person I described would be that documentation, but, we both could be challenged. Is this correct?

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

I made the statement because there are those here who say that no one other than transsexuals ever come out and that we hide behind being able to change our clothes.

I am not one of those. However I think you can agree that the overwhelming majority of CD's are completely closeted. A good many may be out to a select group but self identified CD's are generally not day walkers.

Your courage is inspiring and if every CD was like you, the world would be a very different place indeed.

[flatlander_48]

M:

The whole thing about that script being directed at bisexuals just rubs me the wrong way. When I've seen that on the forum here it just touches a nerve. Words may not kill, but they can damn sure hurt.

Yes, granted there are folks who could come out, but don't. Then again, there are those for whom dressing is a singular and personal pursuit. They have no desire to leave the confines of their home. They just have a different world view of things.

One point: I am a transgender person. I had a bare minimum of the usual shame, guilt and remorse. I have never thought about purging. I like being dressed and looking good, but I also like putting together outfits. I don't particularly try to blend because that isn't my style. I don't have a distinct female persona. Don is DeeAnn and DeeAnn is Don. Basically I like where I am and I have no plans to transition. The degree of dysphoria that I have doesn't warrant it.

What I did was for Me. While it may be a useful thing for others, I did it to unburden Me.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

One point: I am a transgender person.

Is the word "transgender" as used here intended to differentiate yourself from the "just CDs" folks? I'm asking for a very specific reason, not trying to be rude at all.