asking a DADT SO to go for therapy

[pamela7]

My SO is happy and accepting. Throughout our relationship we've dealt with problems along the lines of "the one who has the problem with the other has to sort it out", and it's worked really well. I've seen so many threads and members bemoaning unaccepting SO's. So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Discuss:

[Teresa]

Pamela,
As far as my circumstances are concerned ," Pigs will fly " I've tried it three times now !!
Try convincing someone that joint therapy will help when one side believes it's not broken ! Yes maybe they are hiding something and may not wish to expose it, I can only respect that decision .

This time I prepared myself for it, I designed a gender sheet to describe exactly where I was between male and female. I then wrote a unbiased summary of my CDing history and where I am now. Finally I realised that the gender sheet needed an explanation of how my CDing started. I let my counsellor read through it to see how far off the mark I was and she could find little fault with it . In fact she showed the gender sheet to her group as a different and useful way of describing gender problems.
I picked my moment and asked my wife to read all this after, she finally read the summary sheet and realised the reality of the situation. At that point we considered if the gap between my needs and her acceptance was too wide, at that point we decided they were and decided to try a separation. I could see the idea of losing me was hurting my wife too much and the hurt and the responsibilities of my family were too much to walk away from so we decided to keep things intact, the important thing is my family know my needs and how much I've compromised my life to support them .

[taylormercedes]

I'm currently in a difficult situation with my wife, where her previous acceptance of my dressing has turned into wishing I didn't dress up anymore. Now this sudden turn around in view points of my wife had me a bit confused and I felt like she wasn't accepting me. But she did bring up a valid point during our discussion. She had asked "what if the circumstances were flipped." What if she was the one wanting to have short hair, wear men's clothes, put stubble on her face, and present as a male with a man's mannerisms, how would I feel and react to that? In her mind she married a manly guy, but now she has trouble seeing me as anything other that my female persona. It's not so much intolerance and it doesn't require therapy to "force" someone to accept but rather the SO knows who and what they are attracted to and who they want to be married to.

[Marcelle]

Hi Pamela,

I have seen this a lot on this forum . . . my SO is intolerant and she/he should just get over it and deal. In a sense there is sound logic to such a statement as remaining in relationship where one is intolerant of the other is not a sound basis for a strong relationship. Specifically, one becomes subject to the whims and fancy of the other and this will most likely cause emotional distress on some level and damage the relationship from within due to pent up resentment and anger. Those of us with accepting SOs can count ourselves very fortunate and to be honest I don't even know where I would be emotionally if my wife did not support me as she does (probably some place very bad). However, even those of us with accepting SOs are only "one straw" away from breaking the proverbial camel's back and I wonder how hard we would fight to keep that relationship alive even if that meant retreating to the closet again.

It may seem easy for us to say as Nike so aptly put "Just Do It" However, we don't truly know what each relationship where a DADT exists is comprised of and telling your SO to "just get to therapy and deal" could be that proverbial straw. Besides as the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink." Likewise you can tell an intolerant person to get to therapy and deal but as you know therapy only works if you want it to work . . . it is not a magic bullet to cure.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Nikkilovesdresses]

The snags are, who is to do the referring, and who is to force the reluctant SO to attend the sessions?

It all sounds a bit optimistic to me...

You're used to an SO who is accepting and open to change. Few are as fortunate!

Or, you can lead your wife or daughter, but you can't make them think.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Pam , My wonderfulwife of 52yrs. is in the DA/DT mood now she tolerates my dressing,
but just don't want to see me while I'm dressed I know my boundaries and stay with-in them
and life is great.

About 15yrs. ago we went to a few therapy sessions and she didn't like what the therapist had to say.
We are both in our early 70s' and we both know that the other is not going to change. ~~......

[Lisa85]

So many issues with therapyl where most are looking for a good salesperson to sell their point of view to the other.

But the crux of this issue is the statement "My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance."

For many this is a new commandment to be esteemed as higher than "thou shall not steal". But why shouldn't the SO ask the other to go to therapy to fix intolerance. Diversity philosophy is just that, a philosophy and definitely not even close to perceptions of right and wrong. Moreover perceptions of right and wrong are a level below right and wrong.

A much more interesting question could be posed from the Isha/Marcella experience. What has worked to help a SO move from strict DADT to more accepting of CD and say having no SO issues with her SO CDing at least two times a week. But that would be a new thread

[mykell]

hi pamela,

this is an older thread that i inquired in the loved one section,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ing&highlight=

since i have started going to support through the P-flag organization and met some professional folks, brought home business cards from them and of course some handouts from meetings....they are in my office where she can find them and offered the cards for her to see, no interest, so horse to water theory or as nikki stated you cant make them think. i offered the older thread as it has responses from our GGs in it, food for thought kinda....

[Heidi Stevens]

Hey Pam, in my case it's knowing your SO would never go to a therapist that I deal with. My last two sessions with my gender therapist have mostly dealt with my wife's set in stone views on my dressing. The therapist and I have discussed to no end on how to get my wife to ease off her position. Recently I tried a method the therapist suggested to get my wife to look at a recent photo of Heidi. (Only ones she's seen were from two years ago) the therapist thought this may give my wife a fresh view of Heidi and not the one in her mind. So I showed my wife the scenery photos from my trip to the Erie Gala last month. I then asked if she could look at one more. My wife is no slouch when it comes to a person's motives. Before I could tell here anything else, she said " is it of Heidi?" I said yes. Immediately I got a "no, thank you!" And then I was told that she never wanted to see Heidi in a photo or in person, period! I did the only thing I could do and reassure her that I would follow her wish.
What this all boils down to is if one of the parties is not budging from their beliefs, then you find ways to improve your conditions knowing they are rock solid set. That's how I've handled it. I'll continue to grow as a TG with the knowledge of where my spouse stands on the subject.

[NicoleScott]

Let's flip it.
What if my wife shops, spends, sleeps, drinks, gambles, and avoids work excessively? Any push back is considered my intolerance with her preferred lifestyle, so I should go to.....I mean be sent to.....therapy so I can learn to accept it, turning my intolerance into acceptance.

Let me guess.........that's different.

[Gabby6790]

I think asking a DADT SO to go to explore therapy is reasonable. It's doesn't have to be about them being wrong. It should be about them getting an outside non-biased opinion. I think a lot of a couples (including myself) have communication issues where one party says that the sky is blue 1000x times but the other doesn't believe it. Then a good friend could say the sky is blue and all of a sudden they get it.

It is amazing to me how strong society norms are. There are so many stories of otherwise amazing relationships having issues because of the kind of clothes one party wants to wear. I am finding it tough to swallow as I understand more about myself.

Oh, and regarding the flip the tables argument, I get it and have thought about it. My answer is that it would be weird but ultimately I would be accepting of something that doesn't harm our family.

[Sandra]

So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

Really, maybe she just doesn't want to accept and she has that right to do that.

[STACY B]

How could the SO go to therapy? If it's a DON'T ASK-- DON'T TELL ? How could you ask or tell them? Must be Mind work,, If they don't want to see you dressed or have anything to do with it I don't think they subject themselves to a therapist much less a Gender therapist,,,lol,,, There not the one with the problem, You would have to agree to be in a Do ask Do tell relationship,lol,,,,,,

[Anne K]

Ouch, Nicole! You described my first wife! When I pushed back, she demanded that I go to therapy. After a couple years, I decided that it was time to move on. A hard decision after 20 years. I have never looked back. BTW, I was totally in the closet, so CD was not an issue.

[BLUE ORCHID]

My wife is no slouch when it comes to a person's motives. Before I could tell here anything else, she said " is it of Heidi?" I said yes. Immediately I got a "no, thank you!" And then I was told that she never wanted to see Heidi in a photo or in person, period! I did the only thing I could to and reassure her that I would follow her wish.
What this all boils down to is if one of the parties is not budging from their beliefs, then you find ways to improve your conditions knowing they are rock solid set. That's how I've handled it. I'll continue to grow as a TG with the knowledge of where my spouse stands on the subject.

Hi Heidi, It sure sounds like you really are stuck between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE .~~......

[pamela7]

i guess it is optimistic. i'm lucky, yes. and addressing Nicole's post, the issues that do arise come about in terms of causing harm - i can see our habits out of control can do that, that's why these things go two ways. I don't see a therapist as an advisor, more as someone who asks the questions that allows the judger to release their perceptions. you can't force anyone to do anything, else its a harm. in our case we agreed in the beginning to process everything that ever came up between us, which has kept love life as clear and strong as day 1; removing the non-acceptances works - for us. We also do have the f2m child.

Responding to the excellent question as to "what if my SO wanted to dress/do the male thing?" She really did that earlier in her life, or as close to. i'm the one in dresses, she's the one in jeans, and she loves doing the normally man-things too. To quote Captain America, "we're with eachother to the end of the line".

[Suzie Petersen]

Pam: My SO is happy and accepting. Throughout our relationship we've dealt with problems along the lines of "the one who has the problem with the other has to sort it out", and it's worked really well. I've seen so many threads and members bemoaning unaccepting SO's. So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Discuss:

If I am reading your post right, it is along the lines of "I will do whatever I want and if you dont like it, thats your problem!".
I really to think you two have a very different relationship than most of us married people, or at least, one of you do!
In my view, your philosophy is built on a selfish and ego-centered nature and, to me at least, that is not what a marriage is about. I really dont think that attitude would fly in most marriages.

I think what is missing in your philosophy, to make it acceptable, is the word "Reasonable". If the idea is that each party should be able to do anything that is Reasonable, then if the other has a problem with it, the other should work on that. But if you include all things under that same umbrella, then you are saying that the other should just accept whatever you come up with! For instance: One wants to spend all the household money on something for him/her-self, or One wants to go have sex with the neighbor, or One wants to go on a vacation alone for a month ... etc etc. You cannot, with any reason, say that if the other doesnt like these things, he/she just need to get some help and just get used to it!

For the CD situation specifically, it is not Reasonable to make it the wife's problem if she cannot, or will not, accept this part of you.
I am not saying it is not a good idea to try and get some help to better understand the hubby's needs, but that is a far cry from just making it her problem to deal with.
I have also read many a story here and other places about the wife not being interested in talking to a therapist about this. My own wife was the same way, she had no interest, or willingness, to meet with someone she perceived to be the enemy and who wanted to talk her into something she was fundamentally against.
We did talk to 2 outsides many years ago, both people she chose specifically because she was convinced they would be on her side. I took the chance that maybe, just maybe, they would be Reasonable and also see it from my side and we could work toward a compromise, but I was wrong and she made god choices. Both took her side 100% and nothing good came from it.
So should I have followed your philosophy, I should have told her "tough deal", I am doing what I want and you can go get some help dealing with it, it is your problem, not mine!
Sure, I can see that approach having an effect, but at least in my marriage, it would not be a good effect and I would not find it reasonable to demand that of her when I can clearly see that I am the one who is causing the issue in the first place.
You can also turn it around and say that I am the one who have trouble accepting her rejection of it .. so who should get therapy?

I wonder if WelshGirl actually agree with you on this? But then again, if she doesnt, that is her problem .. right! ;-)

Suzie

[Eryn]

The problem with this concept is that the DADT spouse will feel that there is nothing wrong with her position. She views the TG spouse as "having the problem" and allowing the DADT relationship as her magnanimous concession to it.

Having established an "armed truce" by agreeing to DADT, the TG spouse has also agreed to not discuss the issue further. Breaking that agreement will invariably result in an initial negative reaction.

Perhaps a better approach is for the TG spouse to start therapy, attend a few sessions, and then invite the DADT spouse along for a joint session. No guarantees, but a neutral third party might swing the pendulum a bit.

Another approach, if one is going out regularly, is to develop a relationship and a social life with an accepting couple. The presence of an accepting spouse, as well as the ability to talk frankly to someone in a similar position, can be beneficial. Talking about how much fun you had at the dinner, concert, movie, etc. (not simply being dressed at these events!) can demonstrate that other couples are making the most of the situation.

[xNicolex]

Don't ask don't tell oh hell everyone reacts different to this, I told my now fiance at the begging of our relationship it almost split us apart But that was because she googled for information and unfortunately she found sexual content first which did not help at all but after sitting her down and talking to her to help her see it did not change me as person or change my feelings for her and was not a threat to her in any way she soon grew with the idea and is now fully supportive, she even helps me shop as for therapy well what ever works for you personally I think the middle man is for some women at least more in the way of questions they really want to ask like are you gay or do you find me attractive anymore. It is a very sensitive area that must be approached with caution but in opinion the DADT option is for some a fair compromise but still technically hiding but thats just my

[pamela7]

@Suzie, Welshgirl would respond if she wanted/chose to. I don't think your reading is right, but then as i did not use enough words to explain how it works in practice, not surprisingly judgemental of me/us.

There was a time, for about a year, when she went out one evening a week to meet with an old male friend of hers, and for the first time in my life I felt jealous. It was my problem, my trust issue, I had to deal with it. He was bigger/taller, better with words, good with charming and it triggered my responses. If you think that it's egocentric for the person having an emotional reaction to something to be the one to deal with it, then you have little understanding of how emotions work and how deeper healing is achieved by processing them through.

It's the same with the "emotional attachment" to the crossdressing; I have processed and reprocessed it; it wasn't WG's problem, though certainly she had to deal with the consequences, and she processed what she needed to in her reaction. The underlying love and trust, tested over years of being there for eachother in life-threatening situations, provides the platform for this. I guess if a DADT arises from years of closet secrecy the trust has been flawed though. Food for though.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

...each party should be able to do anything that is Reasonable, then if the other has a problem with it, the other should work on that.

But 'reasonable' is subjective! To many people, it's reasonable to push to the front of a line; to others it's reasonable to use terrorism to bring about social change, or to tax hardworking people at a rate in excess of 50%, or to award hundreds of millions of pounds to a wife who has done nothing but spend her husband's money since the day they married.

Reasonable doesn't exist. What it's really about is love. Love can shift the goalposts like nothing else.

[Suzie Petersen]

Pam,

I realize it might seem like I am deliberately being judgmental of you, but that is not actually it. It is more that I am .. intrigued .. by how different people in this world are. Not specifically the T* spectrum, but all over. I have often wondered why it is we humans just cannot seem to get along, on a global level, but constantly seem to be drawn into conflict of one kind or another. One would think we would have the same basic instincts, desires, dreams and general outlook on life, but I am finding that this is not at all the case. Not to draw any comparisons of course, but the current terror uprisings in several parts of the world are an example of this. To me, and anybody I am around, these are horrible and unacceptable acts, yet there are apparently some people out there who find it perfectly acceptable and a great victory both to perform these actions and even to die as a result! I find it close to unbelievable that we can be that different.

Anyway, that was a stray thought, a little off the path.

I am interested in hearing yours, and everybody elses, opinion about these things, so I just took your invitation to discuss.

Pam: If you think that it's egocentric for the person having an emotional reaction to something to be the one to deal with it, then you have little understanding of how emotions work and how deeper healing is achieved by processing them through.

No, I dont think that.
First of all, you got it turned around there! The egocentric behavior I was talking about was when the person having the emotional reaction, ie you in your example, is told (referred) to just go and see a therapist and get over it, by the person who is doing something that causes the commotion, ie your wife in your example.

If the person who is having a problem with the other persons behavior is able to deal with these feelings, either on her/his own or through help from someone else, then thats fine of course, _IF_ that person understand that the feelings are irrational or unreasonable and actually desire to grow and learn and find a way to be more accepting.
Maybe your words just didnt clearly express what you meant to say, but your choice of words in your original post sounded more like the person who struggled with the other persons behavior should just be told go deal with it and get over it. That seems very insensitive and ego_centered to me:

Pam: the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.
My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Your example of the jealousy situation is a good and interesting one because it is a well known and common situation many people have felt. It is not in any way deviant in nature and it is understood by most people, weather they have felt it or not. This makes it very different from the CD situation, if I may add!
But it is interesting because both parties can actually do something to remedy the situation.

Jealousy can be a very powerful feeling and it can lead people to do some very bad things if it gets out of hand. So who should "fix" the problem in the scenario you described?
Both can do something to solve the issue. The partner who is feeling jealousy can try to realize that there is nothing to be worried about and that the relationship is not at risk, assuming that is in fact true, and that is of course the problem! How do you know that?
The partner who is going out with someone else now and then, for whatever reason, can also stop the problem by realizing that her actions are causing severe distress and potential long term damage to the relationship, not to mention the potential for violent or stupid actions by the jealous partner. She needs to consider if her friendship with the other male is so important that she is OK with having her SO/hubby suffer like this. If she is actually cheating on her SO and is having a sexual relationship with the other male, then this story gets a lot longer and the problem gets bigger.

Back to the original topic. I think my reason to respond to you is the notion, that the huge problem of an unaccepting wife/gf, can be easily solved by simply "referring" her to a therapist, and that she just need to deal with it her self and get with the program, is a little on the naive or even insensitive side. For most people it is not that simple, not at all.
I know from your previous writings that you do have a rare ability to not care too much what others think, for instance regarding peoples reaction to your dress code, and I think some of that nature shines through here as well. You have the ability to completely justify your own actions and thereby, obviously, if someone else has a problem with it, ie your wife, then it is simply their/her problem to solve. But for most of the rest of us it is more complex than that. We might be struggling with both the justification of the dressing and also with making it our wifes problem.

I do not intend to be judgmental of you with this, I am just observing that your views are different than most peoples, because they are based on a different set of norms. I sometimes wish I could be more like that, care less about what others think of me or about anything for that matter, but I am not good at that and I often complicate my life significantly by trying to be and do what the world around me expect of me.

- Suzie

EDIT:
Nikki: We were typing at the same time there :-) Very true, reasonable is very subjective and that makes it difficult, but I still believe there are subjects that fall in the "Definitely reasonable" and in the "Definitely unreasonable" category. For instance, it is Reasonable to go fishing or golfing a few times every month, but Unreasonable to go all weekend every weekend.
Yes, love shifts goalposts, but even the definition of Love will vary from individual to individual. To me, love is putting your partner above your own needs and wants .... within reason ;-)

[Stephanie47]

So, the wife needs therapy because her cross dressing husband does not want to accept his wife's desire to NOT participate in any manner his desire to wear women's clothing. Did the husband makes a full disclosure prior to say "I do" that he has a desire to wear women's clothing? Or was he a "late boomer?" Is it possible the husband has some issues himself such as lacking the self confidence to venture forth into the world attired as a woman? So, rather than addressing his fears with a therapist he should have his wife go to therapy so he can be able to be en femme around her? "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" does not imply the wife does not know her husband is a cross dresser. That's a different story. That's where the wife truly has no clue. He is afraid for some reason to come clean and tell his wife he likes to wear women's clothing because she may not or will not accept that side of him or maybe he has not accepted himself.

If you want to impose your cross dressing upon a non accepting wife, then, just perhaps the husband is in need of therapy to find out what motivates him to disregard his wife's desire to NOT be part of it.

Many years ago my wife told me, "If you want to go fishing go ahead. Just don't expect me to clean it!"

[Tracii G]

Another example of pushing their CDing on a spouse that wants no part of it.
If you are in a DADT relationship its pretty much a done deal and you agreed to it.
Now you want to go back and tell them they need therapy?

Also another example how none of us can agree on anything.

[Tina_gm]

DADT.... That is not necessarily a bad thing. If- the CDer agrees to this type of arrangement, then their partner may not have any particularly ill feeling, or any real need for "therapy". The CDer who wants more than a DADT, but their partner does not, just having the non CD partner get therapy may not resolve much. It could just be, depending on the partner, how long after a relationship has been established, how it came to be found out or told.... So many variables besides just this feminine thing. How strong is the feminine aspects of the CDer? How much do they want or need?

My wife has told me several times that the feminine part of this is ONLY a part of her struggle. Just as much, probably more comes from a feeling of betrayal. Lack of or broken trust, a feeling of not knowing who they are really with. What lies may have been told. How long they were told. Those issues belong in the therapy session if there is a need for one a lot more than getting over it of the feminine aspects.

Lastly, the non CD partner is wired as individually as anyone else is. Some will have a greater ability to deal with it than others. Women who are into the strong masculine type of men are likely to have a harder time dealing with it all, and it might just be that a DADT is the best they are capable of. THAT is not a bad thing, or wrong IMO. If DADT keeps a marriage or LTR intact and healthy in the other aspects, best to leave it alone. It is not the end of the world.