Why If We Are Known to Have Once Lived as Men, Folks Won't Accept Us as 'Real' Women?

[Suzanne F]

I just want to respond about how I feel about the latest issues brought up here. I am trying to find my way in the world as a woman now and it is difficult. I think I like Paula's attitude of being a visible trans woman. It has been my plan to wear that mantle proudly. However, it has been difficult out in the work world. Today I was told a prospective customer would not appreciate my gender change. A person in my industry who I don't even know told this to one of my colleagues. Ouch the real world just raised up and bit me. Then tonight I was in line at grocery and there were 3 good looking fireman in front of me. The cashier looked right at me and said sir oh I mean mam aisle 4 is open. Everyone heard him at the front of the store. Ouch!
I guess I am admitting that yes at times I am finding I would like to just be a regular woman out in the world. That isn't going to happen and I know it. I keep telling myself that I knew all of this but the pain is real no matter that I knew it was coming. I had sailed through a lot of obstacles but there is no escaping the fact that I am looked at as different.

As far as clothes go who gives anyone the right to criticize what we wear? Surely we are smart enough to determine what environments we are comfortable in and how we want to present ourselves. It seems everywhere I go people think because I am trans they can comment on my wardrobe. My president asked me at our first meeting as me being out if I was going to dress like a ****! He said he had done research and new trans women tended to dress like that. Wtf! Not to mention my trans friends who have been condescending about that I would eventually find my style. Others in our community have said I was too girly. Again wtf!

So now I am trying to navigate being a professional woman. Nothing feels right now! My clothes aren't good enough my hair sucks , well my wig sucks. My makeup isn't refined enough. Blah blah blah! What is important is who I am, I know that. I don't even know what I am trying to say. I am struggling. It seems like I got lost for a second.

Suzanne

[PaulaQ]

Others in our community have said I was too girly. Again wtf!

There is a tendency in many spheres in which we find ourselves, both in the cis and trans worlds, to criticize femininity. Women are viewed as weak. It is misogyny, and it isn't the truth. Unfortunately, masculine traits are *always* viewed as being superior to feminine ones.

When I met you in person, Suzanne, I thought your outfit was very flattering to you, and in keeping with something a professional woman in Dallas would wear. It seemed appropriate to me for the Bay Area, as well. Stick to your guns, Suzanne, you have good instincts based on what I've seen.

I know it's hard to not disintegrate into a puddle of self-doubt when you get all the criticism that's been lobbed at you. Stick to your guns. If you are to critique your appearance, only listen to people who you KNOW have good taste, and your best interests at heart, and who will be honest. Know that you are putting forth effort to be the best you can be, and do that. Be confident - again - easier said than done. Confidence makes a lot of things easier.

And I really do feel for you and relate to what you are going through. I've been there - misgendered, criticized for my clothing choices, told I was too feminine, all manner of things. It isn't easy doing this. I wish it was. You can do it, but yeah, it sucks while you are going through it. All of us suffer many indignities, large and small, especially early on.

[PennyNZ]

I so much know what you are going through Suzanne. Persevere and we will get lucky..
Btw.. I think you look fantastic

[becky77]

@ Suzanne. Go easy on yourself it's a learning curve. Some things you will ditch, others you will refine and some you will keep, maybe all of it you will keep but learn to own it.
Criticism is hard but we can learn from it.

I don't understand why jeans are considered masculine? I wear jeans most of the time and they are female fitted. If your jeans look masculine shop around, I can pick up the same style from the same shop and one might fit great while the other hangs wrong.

Wear the clothes that represent you, no point in Transitioning only to step into another clothing closet, but if you want to be taken seriously you will need to be selective.
I rarely wear skirts day to day, but I often put one on for when I have to go into head office, no one pays any attention, but if it was a miniskirt........

Thing is clothing is important and we shouldn't just avoid the subject for fear of sounding like a CD. Some early Transitioners may need guidance and dare not broach the subject here, shame.

Beth I can't relate to a lot of the stuff you say, things like (I'm paraphrasing) 'Being misgendered as a man can make you slip into male mode and affect your identity'. What on earth does that mean?
To me that says anyone who shares that view is only acting at being a woman, if your identity is so easily shaken something is wrong. I can understand being hurt or feeling bitter or even questioning how you will cope.
Then you mention hyper femininity as a cloak, again acting?

I'm not going to say your views are wrong just that you write them as if they apply to us all and they very much don't.

As for dating it's a non starter till after SRS. Then?
Well if I'm honest it's such a minefield I might stay celibate!

You can't be stealth when finding a partner they will find out at some point and if it's not till Christmas dinner with your family and Dad slips up on a childhood story, that partner is going to feel a sucker punch! Most likely due to the deceit.
I don't intend to start a relationship with a lie, but if I start with the truth it probably won't start at all. Sucks to be this way.

[ReineD]

So now I am trying to navigate being a professional woman. Nothing feels right now! My clothes aren't good enough my hair sucks , well my wig sucks. My makeup isn't refined enough. Blah blah blah! What is important is who I am, I know that.

I don't know if you want my , but over the years I've discovered the perfect style for work that absolutely no one can criticize. The trick is to not draw any attention by wearing stylish clothing. When I was a young woman building my career I bought clothes that were stylish and flattering, but discovered that the men I dealt with paid more attention to the fact that I was female than what I wanted them to pay attention to, which was my work and my competence. So the secret to dressing professionally, are plain styles that do not emphasize body parts. Button and collared shirts that don't cling, plain straight skirts that are not tight, don't suggest your legs or your butt as you walk and that are knee length in not eye-catching colors (blues, grays, etc), or slacks that are not tight fitting, modest 1-2" plain pumps, and business-like jackets that hide everything. Basically, the women's version of what men wear to make sales calls. You can accessorize with a scarf and jewelry, but not too much jewelry and not too much makeup. Just a pair of earrings and a watch will do. The sexy way that professional women are portrayed in movies does not work well in real life, not for a woman who wants people to look at what she has to offer more than what she looks like.

Now before some of you pick this apart, of course once a woman has her work reputation established and she is respected, she can wear what she wants. This advice holds for young women who are building their careers (or older women like me reentering the workforce and wanting to build a new career) and newly transitioned women who want people to pay attention to the work that needs to be done and not other things.

[Zooey]

Beth I can't relate to a lot of the stuff you say, things like (I'm paraphrasing) 'Being misgendered as a man can make you slip into male mode and affect your identity'. What on earth does that mean?
To me that says anyone who shares that view is only acting at being a woman, if your identity is so easily shaken something is wrong. I can understand being hurt or feeling bitter or even questioning how you will cope.
Then you mention hyper femininity as a cloak, again acting?

I'm not going to say your views are wrong just that you write them as if they apply to us all and they very much don't.

This is exactly what I was getting at - thank you for stating it more clearly than I did.

[Jennifer Hopkins]

Hi Suzanne
I love this side as it gives me a chance to learn and get more confident.
Yes i fully understand how you feel and that is what makes me scared to transition. I want to be feminine and the women i am inside but other so called normal people i know will make it very hard. I hope in time and before it is to late i will get the courage to be myself to all the world. This side is.giving me a little more confidence.
You look fantastic.

[Badtranny]

I am struggling. It seems like I got lost for a second.

It's a struggle Suze, and it never ends.

You will vacillate between wanting to be open and wanting to be normal. One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.

I know this. I know it's hard. I know it's worth it.

[Michelle789]

I will say that I see a lot of trans women who present in jeans, a cute top, and no makeup, not because that best represents them, or because they don't have TIME to do any more, but because they seem to fear being noticed, and somehow feel dressing that way will make them invisible.

I think a lot of cis women do the same thing because they don't want to be noticed. Although they won't get clocked as trans, they still risk getting lots of unwanted male attention. Dressing down decreases the amount of male attention they would get as opposed to if they dressed more femme.

I do think that time does play a role in how femme someone presents. To do hair, makeup, skin care, have time to buy nice clothes, and the works takes time. I find that I spend a considerable time on my appearance, although it's totally manageable. But going to the store to buy makeup takes time. It takes time to apply makeup every day. Going for eyebrow waxing appointments and plucking - takes time. Going to the store/mall to buy new nice clothes - takes time. Styling hair, or in my case, properly maintaining my wig - it all takes time. And it all adds up, and we have plenty of other responsibilities to tend to in life. Now, most women have to work at least one paid job (sometimes more), commute to and from those jobs, shop, cook, clean, raise the kids, and sex. Add on top of that needing adequate time to exercise, eat right (yes, this costs time and money), and take care of your emotional, mental, and spiritual state - such as prayer, meditation, church, AA, therapy, other forms of self help. Add on top of that trying to get 8 hours of sleep every night. Honestly, it can be practically impossible to do it all. There's only 24 hours in a day. My belief is many people - both men and women - skimp on sleep to get it all done, and spend their entire lives sleep deprived. Maybe some people skimp on their emotional, mental, and spiritual care. Some people skimp on exercise. People skimp on eating healthy. And yes, women may skimp on their appearance. Unfortunately, there isn't time for it all, unless you're superwoman who can safely and sanely live on two hours of sleep.

Also, everything costs money too. I'm sure there are plenty of GG's who have to cut corners financially too, especially when they're raising kids. When you have kids, your time and money rightfully goes into raising the kid.

Also, I think if you're going to get clocked, it won't matter too much what you're wearing. We get clocked in half a second. I don't think people in half a second are going to clock you because of your clothing style being too over the top femme. People clock you in half a second because of your physical size, male facial and body features, male walking, male movements, male mannerisms, and vibes you emit from within. Those vibes about how you feel about yourself that can show through your face - that can change the appearance of your face. Feeling confidently femme can erase some male features thus allowing you to pass, while feeling not confident, worrying about being clocked, or fighting yourself, can erase female features and get you clocked. Ok, it doensn't literally erase male/female features. But rather, your inner vibes can enhance female features and disguise male features, or vice versa.

Wearing clothes that stand out may only get you clocked if you're borderline on passing, and will likely not get you clocked instantaneously but rather after being initially gendered as female. But in most cases, you're clocked instantaneously, in that first half second. Most likely someone isn't thinking - dress and hose - must be a tranny. More likely, their thinking, what a well dressed woman. Or if they clock you, that's a tranny/dude in a dress/etc, but they really can't offer you a reason why. They clocked you in half a second, and it was very subconsciously done. Most likely, the person who clocked you has no clue why they clocked you. They just know, or at least suspect it. Yes, there were things that screamed male, but if you asked someone who clocked why they clocked you, they likely won't be able to give you a reason. They most likely won't even be able to think of a reason, unless it was your voice or facial hair or something VERY obvious that gave you away.

I'm of the opinion that if you are going to be noticed anyway, you are probably better off socially to be seen as that large, rather well dressed trans woman, than as the large trans woman in a rather mousy outfit.

I agree. Being well-dressed can help us in many situations. It can make a beautiful women look even more beautiful. It can make a plainer women look more beautiful. It can make a non-passable transwoman be more accepted. Not universally, there are plenty of haters. But dressing nicely can help boost people's perceptions of you at least some of the time, to at least some degree. I personally believe in making a good first impression, and dressing nicely accomplishes that. However, it's not required that you dress really femme. Honestly, I believe whatever style of dress makes you happiest and most comfortable is what you should wear. Whatever style of dress best represents you is how you should dress.

I also know that it's expensive being a woman, and so some of us have to do the best we can with what we can afford, and that for some of us who are quite large, finding clothes that fit, any clothes, can be a serious challenge.

Agreed to both. Some transwomen either can't afford nice clothing or are limited by whatever they can find in plus sizes.

One of the things that annoys me that I've observed in the trans community (in real life, not on here), are trans people who feel they can tell us how we should dress. "That trans woman in 5 inch heels needs to understand SHE REPRESENTS ME, ALL OF US, and she shouldn't look like that, I'm going to give her a piece of my mind!" That makes me angry. (I really have heard this. More than once. Actually a bunch of times.) Some of the same people, will then turn around and complain about how drab the other trans women in the room look. This is misogyny, plain and simple.

I think this comes from insecurity and jealousy. I have been told by people that they don't like my femme style of clothing a few times. I am a wearer of femme clothing, and I have never personally criticized anyone on their style of dress. That's really not my business.

I've been there - misgendered, criticized for my clothing choices, told I was too feminine, all manner of things. It isn't easy doing this. I wish it was. You can do it, but yeah, it sucks while you are going through it.

I've been through all of that too. I have had people say things like "are you going to wear 'normal' clothes to the meeting next time?" or have been told that I dress "age inappropriately" and will get clocked because of it, or that I just don't know how to put an outfit together. I have also been told by a few people that I should go with shorter hair because it's more mainstream or because shorter hair suits my facial shape better. In spite of these insults, I have been complimented on my clothes, hair, makeup, shoes, and overall appearance WAY more than the few insults I have endured.

I believe that people who criticize our clothes, hair, and makeup, are probably jealous of us, and wish they could dress like us. People who wear jeans & cute tops who are comfortable with and genuinely like that style aren't going to be the ones criticizing us.

Of course trans-people who have this trait of a love of hyperfemininity, picked it up decades before, (mostly in the 1950's and early 1960's, when the hyper feminine was the style for cis-women), and so, are becoming a minority, as they age, (now being in their 60's, or in their 70's), and either have passed on or have stopped socializing much in public, so one would not encounter them if you hang with a younger, socially active generation.

I was born in the 80s, and I picked up hyperfemininity. I wear dresses, skirts, hose, nice shoes, makeup, and long hair. I personally know of older transwomen who don't wear dresses. So, maybe mostly older transwomen dress as I do, but there are always exceptions to the rule. And once again, you're most likely not getting clocked on your clothing. More likely you're getting clocked in 0.5 seconds by physical features, movements, vibes you emit, or by voice.

I don't think you're anywhere close to the hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image that I'm talking about, and that's a good thing. There are women who adopt aspects of that style too, or a version of it, like Dita Von Teese, but doing it to own it is vastly different from doing it because you feel it's the only way to be a woman, or at least the only way people will see you as one.

I'm not some hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image either. I choose the elements of hyper femininity that I really like (and also within time & budget). I forgo heels and don't find them very comfortable. I wear stylish ballet flats, boots, and open-toe sandals and they give me a sense of style and comfort. I don't do eye makeup very often, mostly because I literally can't take 10-15 minutes every morning to do it. I'd rather pray and meditate for those 10-15 minutes than add eye shadow. Maybe when my facial hair is finally completely removed and I no longer have to shave, maybe I'll use that time to apply eye makeup. I don't mind doing basic eye shadow, but applying eyeliner is absolutely burdensome to me. I do foundation and powder, lipstick, long wavy hair, a dress (or skirt with nice top) and black stockings. I go bare legged sometimes during the summer months. I wear pants only for situations I feel it's more practical to dress that way, or if I really feel like wearing pants on a given day. I have shortened the length of some of my dresses and skirts a bit, although I don't like to go too short. Let's say that I have gone from just above the knee (1-3 inches) to 3 to 6 inches above the knee. I also wear a bracelet on my left wrist. I have a few that I rotate between, depending on how it matches with the outfit I'm wearing.

If the ideal you're talking about includes loads of makeup (eye, face, and lips), short miniskirts/dresses, cleavage revealing clothes, 4-6 inch heels, super long curly/wavy hair, finger and toenails completely done, with or without stockings, then yeah, I agree with you that most of us aren't going for that full on look, but are picking and choosing the elements that we are comfortable with.

One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.

I can totally relate.

[Zooey]

I'm not some hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image either. I choose the elements of hyper femininity that I really like (and also within time & budget). I forgo heels and don't find them very comfortable.

You're not even close to hyper-femininity.

I think some people might be misinterpreting what I mean by "hyper-feminine". When I say "hyper-feminine", it's related to "feminine" in the same way that "hyper-space" in sci-fi relates to "space" - it's a level beyond reality. It is a make-believe notion of a plutonic-ideal of femininity and what a "good woman" is that is not representative of any woman that actually exists (or has ever actually existed) in the real world. It encompasses all aspects of presentation, as well as the motivation behind them. In most cases, it is a very historically masculine view of femininity. It's woman as a demure, opinion-less, visually-perfect, sexually-available (but not too available), object. It's "I'm unacceptable because I don't do <something demanded of me>" rather than "I'm awesome because I'm doing <something amazing I love>". Yes, there are styles of dress that often go with it, but it's a holistic thing.

Perhaps more relevant to this conversation, it is the notion that the validity/integrity/stability/worth of your identity as a woman is predicated on executing a particular costume well enough to meet somebody else's imaginary standard.

You can be very feminine, and not be what I'm talking about. I actually DO wear eye makeup every day, because I like it when my eyes pop, whether I'm wearing jeans and sneakers or not. I have friends, cis and trans, who love to dress girly girly girly girly. They are also unquestionably strong women, and some of them are among the staunchest feminists I know. In all cases, it's all about being ourselves - that's just what we each like. There is a huge difference between being/expressing yourself and your self-identity being predicated on wearing a woman costume based on a hyper-feminine ideal. They can look similar in a given moment, but observed over time they would rarely be mistaken for each other.

I don't care what Beth-Lock or anybody else chooses to wear. You do you! What concerned me were the descriptions of the motivations and thought processes that supposedly led to those choices, and the suggestion of (what seemed to me) a very fragile self-identity as a woman. If you are a woman, you are a woman. The notion of needing to adopt regressive notions of femininity in order to convince yourself of that seems incredibly counter-productive to me, both for the individual trans-woman doing it and for our collective relationship with the broader population of women.

[becky77]

One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.
.

So true, why is that?

[Michelle789]

@Beth

Based on reading your posts, you'er talking about some theoretical feminine woman that doesn't actually exist in real life. It's like the theoretical elements or other aspects of the physical world that have never been observed in the real world, but exist according to scientific theory.

I think when most people talk about style of dress, I think we're talking about that. I think we talk about degrees of casual vs dressy or degrees of feminine style of dress. This whole "pants/jeans vs skirt/dress" debate is exactly that. It's just a style of clothing, and your choice in clothing is no different than whether or not to wear makeup, or how much makeup you're going to wear. In the case of makeup, there's face makeup, eye makeup, and lip makeup. For each of these three, you can choose to wear or not to wear, and also it's a matter of how much. I personally know of women who wear just a tad of foundation but there look is still "au natural." This means just enough makeup to say they are wearing makeup, but not enough that it becomes noticeable. With eye makeup, there's eye shadow, eyeliner, and mascara. You can wear either one shade of eye shadow, or two or more shades of eye shadow blended together.

I guess what I'm saying is that with makeup, we can wear varying amounts of it. Wearing no makeup means exactly that, you're wearing absolutely no makeup. Wearing makeup can mean just a tad of foundation and nothing else, just the lipstick and nothing else, or maybe some foundation + lipstick + a small amount of eyeshadow, or you can go for the works and completely make your face up - this means lips, foundation, concealer, powder, contouring, multiple eyeshadow shades blended properly, eyeliner, mascara, lipstick outlined with a lip pencil, plus anything that I forgot. I think there are some women who go for the works with makeup, but plenty of women wear varying degrees of makeup, but we still wear makeup.

As for dresses and skirts vs pants and jeans, it's simply a matter of style in today's world. Yes it's true that dresses and skirts were more commonly worn by women in the old days, and today women wear pants more often. Even within the world of wearing jeans or pants, there are degrees of girliness.

A butch woman likely wears looser fitting (but not necessarily baggy) jeans / pants plus a more masculine looking top - solid stripes or plad patterns - but the patterns are always very angular or square. They may be more colorful than a male would be. I have seen butch women who like bright pastels, including pink, purple, blue, and green. They may wear converse or even men's shoes. They usually wear their hair very short. Sometimes it's buzz cut short, and other times it's in the men's range of short but not uber short hair - that is the hair can still be styled and parted, but hits above the ears.

A tomboyish woman may wear little or no makeup at all. They may go for looser fitting (but not necessarily baggy) jeans or pants, but there tops are more feminine. This means non-angular patterns and a wider array of colors. They prefer sneakers or flip flops. A tomboy or a butch woman may femme it up from time to time too. I personally know of women (trans & cis) who usually present butch or tomboy who occasionally femme things up. Tomboys often wear their hair below the ears but above the shoulders.

A girly girl typically wears more makeup, but not necessarily the works, although once again, they may wear the works. When they wear pants or jeans, they usually wear very form fitting pants or jeans. Leggings and jeggings are a common staple of the girly girl. I know girly girls who wear pants most of the time and rarely wear skirts and dresses, but they're still girly girls. Some girly girls may choose to wear dresses and skirts predominantly. Most girly girls don't wear hose regularly, but there are some that do. Girly girls may wear heels regularly. Others don't wear heels often, but choose stylish ballet flats, boots, open toe sandals, and even stylish sneakers. Hair is typically shoulder length or longer. Even when choosing heels, there are different styles and heel heights. Lots of girls may vary their heel heights from day to day, and may choose flats or heels depending on the day or situation.

Are the girly girls who wear copious amounts of makeup more girly than the ones who war subtle amounts of makeup? Are girls who wear dresses and skirts girlier than girls who wear form fitting pants? Are girls who wear longer hair girlier than girls who wear shoulder length hair? I do find that the style of pants or jeans is does matter. Girly girls, as I said earlier, tend to wear tight, form fitting pants or jeans if they choose to wear pants.

Also, girly girls, like you said, can be very strong, independent, and even partake in male activities. I identify as a girly girl (although there are girls who are more femme than me), but I also have opinions. I work in the male dominated, logical profession of computer programming. I can hang mirrors, and use a staple gun to hang Christmas lights.

So while very few women, if any, in real life, fit a theoretical "hyper feminine" image of a woman, there are plenty of girly girly girly girls out there who embrace some or all of the elements of stereotypical femininity, who are distinctly different from tomboyish or butch women. Even butch women present and behave distinctly differently from men. There are elements of masculinity in a butch woman's outfits, but it's still a feminine or androgynous style. Many of the differences between men vs butch women, butch women vs tomboy, tomboy vs girly girl, and girly girl vs girly girly girly girl are often very subtle differences. In the end of the day, how we present is just a matter of degree of femininity. Or maybe more appropriately, it's just a matter of style, or personal preference. So I like dresses and skirts, you like tight jeans /pants. Someone else likes looser (but not necessarily baggy) pants or jeans.


@Becky

Women are unfortunately judged by their appearances in our culture. Our value as women is sadly determined by how good we look - makeup, clothes, hair, physical features. We can easily see another woman whom we perceive to be prettier than ourselves and then think we look like an ape. We can be told how beautiful we are by our boyfriends, a guy who is hitting on us, a female friend or stranger, or anyone for that matter, and feel super fabulous.

As transwomen, we're overcoming the obstacles of male bodies and decades of gender dysphoria. We not only feel beautiful vs ugly, but can feel feminine or downright manly. When we pass or have our gender validated by someone else we can feel like we're completely on top of the world. When someone clocks us and misgenders us (or stares, shouts a slur, tells us not to use the women's restroom, etc...) we can feel very dysphoric over it. We can suddenly feel like shitty man apes. Honestly how we feel on any given day depends on the circumstances of how we were treated that day (or in the days leading up to it).

[MarieTS]

This is one of the main reasons to go stealth. Otherwise we can never be TRULY accepted. There will always be rejection, even if we don't see it or it is hidden from us. Deep down we will always be a caveat to the conversation.

[Jennifer Hopkins]

I know when i eventually transition i am not a genetically real women but why can't society treat us with respect and accepted us for what we we are. We are no threat do them all we want is acceptance and tolerance. Problem is that people are at.times very narrow minded ut i think the younger generation is more understanding and accepting. I hope.

[Stumble]

The idea that there is a universal set of experiences all women equally share because of our culture's reaction to our assigned at birth sex is a fiction. The people who promote these ideas are, typically, white, relatively well off, and as members of the women of the world go, in relatively little position to bitch about life compared to what many, many other women endure, particularly women of color and trans women.

Your first sentence is indisputable. The next is exaggerated and unmerited hostility against White, financially well-off females. While you may have heard a lot of White, well-off Women (WWOW) bitch about life, you have not understood the constraints of their lives that lead to said bitching, and your life experiences may not position you to understand easily.

Your argument is not helped by making some women the Bad Bitches who undermine feminine solidarity. Women will not pull together until compassion rules.