Is the world today leaving us here behind?

[jenni_xx]

Just reading through the first page of the male-to-female crossdressing page, which at this moment includes threads such as:

* Trying on clothes at a store for the first time
* First Time shopping tips
* A documented experience on shopping
* A purchased pair of shoes
* Going out in a car
* Trying on shoes in a store
* Having a pedicure
* Reactions from SA's
* Playing a video game using a female character

This got me thinking, considering just how much transgender issues are in the news recently, how much is being written and debated on, do such concerns (which are undoubtedly valid to the person writing them (and are "concerns" which I'm not for one moment shouldn't be asked)) pale into insignificance in the respect that they are actually quite trivial when it comes to the issue of acceptance?

Just reading through the replies to such threads, a commonality seems to spring out. One that points to a "just get out there and do it" kind of attitude. That strangers (be it people in the street, or sales assistants in a store) don't really care.

Yet the same kind of threads on this site appear again and again, so these issues are clearly important to the person raising them, and it's this reason why I create this thread, asking whether our own worries relate more to our own insecurities which themselves are born out of, for want of a better word, out-dated concerns that we may have in regards to how others, most notably strangers perceive us.

Or, in short, and put rather crudely, are we (or more specifically, is this site) now being left behind?

Currently I am hearing about how children who, at a younger and younger age, are being taken to gender specialists because they are showing a preference for toys/colours/clothes/mannerisms that are traditionally associated with the opposite sex. I am reading about how many now regard gender to be a social construct, separate to sex, which is seen as biological. I am hearing criticism in certain quarters about how trans-activists are offending the feminist movement by advocating and upholding stereotypical ideas about femininity, which feminists are finding insulting and demeaning to women. I am hearing how the meaning of the word "transgender" has changed down the years. I am also hearing about a petition to remove the "T" from LGBT. I am hearing about a backlash from women, who refuse to acknowledge that a transgender person (previously referred to as a transsexual) should ever be regarded as woman in the, quote "true sense of the word" (in the case of MTF), or a man in the, quote "true sense of the word" (in the case of FTM). I have read about TERF's - standing for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. And I am hearing about death threats from members of the transgender community to such people (TERF's).

And yet, even in such groups which can perhaps be labelled "extreme", groups that have received death-threats, there are not many who have ever expressed a problem with a man dressing as a woman. Their problem rather lies towards "men" who express a desire/need to be regarded AS a woman. In their eyes, from a biological perspective, that being an unobtainable goal, no matter how much they cosmetically alter their body.

I am hearing about a backlash in regards to transgender prisoners having to serve time in a prison that houses members that align the transgenders birth-sex-identification (although this only seems to be an issue in regards to MTF - the argument being that female prisons are now becoming yet another female-only space that is being "infiltrated" by men). And of course the issue of gender specific toilets - a debate that has been had (and deleted on this site) in the past, much to my own personal annoyance.

I have even come across a discussion that puts the words for male genitalia and female genitalia in quotation marks, because men and women are now being encouraged to align their own genitalia, pre-op and indeed post-op, or indeed no op at all, to the gender of their preferred choice.

And I have even read about how children should no longer be identified as male or female at birth, because this is an identification that is ascribed to them by someone other than themselves. Instead, children should only be identified as male or female by the children themselves, when they are ready, at an age when they are able to correctly identify themselves in accordance to how they feel.

I have read about how lesbians can be regarded as being transphobic because they don't wish to sleep with a MTF transsexual.

All of these issues are in the news, are readily available to read about online, and are at the forefront of trans issues, and indeed a backlash to the current plethora of trans-related stories in the media.

I have yet to read about any such issues on this site (and the one issue that was discussed - that being toilets - Instead, as it currently stands, the majority of threads on the first page are about topics such as those mentioned at the beginning of this post. The most controversial topic on the first page, interestingly, being the most replied to - namely "have you been with a guy?"

This is a site called crossdressers dot com. Could it be that all of the issues above do NOT relate to crossdressers, and as such, crossdressers are being left behind, forgotten about, a subset of a group of people who fall under the transgender umbrella, a subset who have a desire to present as female only temporarily, yet refer to each other using a pronoun usually associated with the "gender" that is opposite to their own biological "sex"? Yet is nevertheless a subset that is not really taken seriously at all? Men who like to dress as women, yet don't want to be women, are happy, by and large being men. Is it that this particular "subset" is most confusing to all?

It does (kind of) beg the question, if you were born today, and as a baby/child expressed a preference for something/anything that was usually associated to the opposite sex, would your parents be rushing you off to a gender specialist as opposed to brushing it under the carpet. As a phase. As a quirk. As something you'll grow out of. Which begs the further question - is it the problem that it IS other people assigning an identification to yourself, when it is only really yourself who can correctly identify yourself.

Which is, after all, something that takes a lot of time to be able to do. Don't we all, ultimately, fall into ourselves, find ourselves, and accept ourselves, over time? As opposed to being TOLD who we are by someone else?

[AlleyKat]

Could it be that the hot topic debates aren't in this site, because it is oriented towards support more than politics?

While I'm fairly new here, the overwhelming trend is celebrating personal victories and supporting each other through individualized struggles.

Is the world more cd/tg friendly? Undoubtably. It's still hard to shake the feeling that this should be hidden, which is a feeling that is most easily overcome with a good support network.

the site isn't out of date until no one needs that encouragement, and the lack of hot button debates is because you have missed the point.

[jenni_xx]

Yes, it could well be that the hot topic debates "aren't in this site". Precisely because of the reason you mentioned.

Why did you feel it necessary to state "because I have missed the point"? You call it "hot button debates". I call it topical. Much the sameness all said and done. But I will say that asking a question is not tantamount to "missing the point". And as such I find your reply rather condescending, as though I'm not aware of "what the point of this site actually is". I've been hear since 2006. Trust me, I'm fully aware of "the point of this site". My very last sentence in my OP alluded to this. As did several other sentences throughout my (rather long) post.

Every single question, point, which you have decided to not answer by the way. Should I respond to you (as you have responded to me) by saying that you have missed the actual point being made?

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Could I also state that, just because the "hot topic" debates "aren't in this site", does that mean that they never should be?

If that is a recipe for stagnation...

[Sarah Doepner]

It does us little good to make progress as individuals and then discover the world outside this comfy support group rejects us. I agree that the larger issues in society merit discussion but it may be something that is a little out of place on this main page. I would suggest there be one more tab added that would encourage discussion of the struggle faced by crossdressers and other transgender face in the day to day world. This main page has been a boon to me personally as I've attempted to work through issues or have had questions that welcomed a lot of input. I would be disappointed to see that change, but it would be nice if we could have a moderated discussion of broader issues. As it is now, if I want anything like that I'm forced to look at facebook and that deteriorates so quickly into name calling and fact challenged positions that I've just been ignoring it recently out of frustration.

[suzanne]

You don't give any indication how old you are. But my impression of this site is that the average age of posters is over 40, conservatively. I think the general mindset is one of discovery that whereas non standard gender or sexual behaviors were once TABOO, there is now much wider acceptance and its okay to be yourself. Well, duh, you might think, but the conditioning we experienced in the sixties and seventies was much more powerful than younger generations can imagine. And escaping the shackles is not a trivial feat.

I am in my mid fifties. Growing up in the late sixties a seventies, it was common to hear in normal, everyday conversation, talk that would now be prosecutable hate speech. In my own home, my father talked freely about if he ever saw one and how sickening he found any male with even the slightest feminine presentation. It was the same in school. Gender non-conforming boys were fair game for teasing at best and physical assault at worst. Your only recourse is to hide as best you could, because the school officials could do no more than tell you you brought it on yourself.

So, when I discovered how much I enjoyed the wonders of my mom's lingerie drawer, I was filled with a toxic brew of emotions, from fear to disgust. My defense was to hide in my sports, since I was a big, top level athlete. But not really a conscious form of hiding. I just guessed, correctly, that I would be the last person anyone would suspect. All I had to do was keep my mouth shut.

I successfully repressed my femme tendencies until well into my married life, when it all came back and caused all kinds of problems for my wife, who was raised in the same era as me. It's better now, thanks for asking, but not without a lot of tears, long talks and counseling.

My point is that there are lots of people who have been similarly conditioned and need a lot of help to overcome it. This site provides a huge service by encouraging those girls who are beginning their journeys out of the closet. It is still much needed, I regret to say.

[jenni_xx]

Thanks Sarah, that is an honest, well intentioned reply, and one that I really appreciate.

I do have to ask - why do you feel that it would be a discussion that is "a little out of place on this main page"? It is a discussion that doesn't have to take the place of any other discussion, and it is one that is topical, and one that doesn't need to be at the detriment to any other discussion (that is, it doesn't have to take up a space on the main page that would have otherwise been given to a more "apt thread" (for this site). We are part of the issue - this site is the number one place for crossdressers (or at least it advertises itself as such).

[PaulaQ]

Yes. Crossdressers are being left behind.

For the most part, y'all aren't out, don't participate in trans activism, and gain benefit from efforts to make sure you have access to public facilities en femme because of the efforts transsexuals and non-binary trans. Sure, I know some CDs who fight the good fight. Most of you don't.

Most people have NO IDEA how many of you there are. You are invisible, and powerless because of it.

Be out. Be visible. You would have a big effect on the politics of trans people.

Believe me, I have to fight fairly often against trans people who are happy to throw CDs under the bus.

I don't have time to address all your other points right now, but let me say unequivocally that trans woman are WOMEN, trans men are MEN. Period. Those who say otherwise are wrong, and history will judge them bigots. There are few beliefs I'd die for, but this is one I would.

Edit: I will say one thing about death threats against TERFs. I deplore this and don't approve of it. I would point out though, that 271 trans died this year, compared with zero TERFs. I'd also observe that if they are going to put out hate speech, they should take a page from the KKK, who is at least smart enough to wear masks.

[AngelaYVR]

If this site ever turned into the site that you describe, I'd be long gone.

[Nicole Erin]

Living life anywhere on the TG spectrum is not easy. The earlier the stage someone is in, the harder it is. You don't quite have your look or confidence in place yet. Even small victories seem like a big deal.
As you pass more milestones, it becomes less of a big deal.

Usually in any type of life, the only ones who get a lot of recognition or respect are the ones who are established. People tend to not take beginners or part-timers real serious.

For TG, it doesn't even matter if how someone identifies. Well like Virginia prince identified as a crossdresser yet is well known and respected at least within our community.

There is another path that works for many of us - just living your life and not being concerned with politics or with what others are doing or thinking.
That is the way to establish yourself and find what works best for you.

[AlleyKat]

My intent was not to be condecending, but given the tone of the op I do t feel there is a whole lot of room to talk.

As for putting it in another forum, I can see that working. Look at how many guest are in here at any given moment. How many users with low post counts. We come, we read people's experiences, we take joy from the happy ones, we read the feedback from the not so happy, and learn from that as well.

Debates don't lead to good feelings. It tends to bring out the more combative sides of people, especially in an environment as emotionally charged as this one.

Unity is such a major part of this site, and I'm along with Angela in that if its not here, I won't be either.

[jenni_xx]

Angela - I didn't describe any site. No such site exists.

You do understand that everything that I said I had become aware off was from various outlets - media, blogs, forums, etc etc?

I was in no advocating that this site becomes an accumulation of such such sites, an "all in one place" site if you will.

Paula - thank you. The first person to reply to my post who actually understands AND addresses the points that I was raising.

And the reason for that is the reason that you state - we are not all out. I have long held the belief that we are our own worst enemy - a group of people who wish to remain invisible while asking for acceptance at the same time. We're an idiosyncrasy at best. We strive for acceptance yet want others to do the dirty work that enables us to enjoy such a status. And in that respect, I do understand why we are not exactly looked upon as advocates who can help further the acceptance of trans-people. We ride on the coat-tails of acceptance, and mumble under our breath our annoyance when such acceptance isn't attained. We're the bullied little brother, not able to stand up for himself, instead asking others to stand up for us instead. And when that doesn't work, we'll go back to asking "why did that person look at me funny when I asked to try on a dress in a shop". Or "why do I find it hard to be myself in public" without actually going out in public and experiencing it first hand. I.e. those kind of thoughts reside only in our head, safe in the knowledge that we can go back to living a life that is expected, without actually putting ourselves out there to be judged, and live, accordingly.

And then I'm met with a reply that says that I miss the point. That this site is all about acceptance. That, to me, is a joke, and one made in very poor, and very ignorant, taste.

[CynthiaD]

Actually the "hot" issues do come up from time to time. Mostly it's just the same old stuff being hashed out again for the umpteenth time. Mostly we've moved on to more important things, like how to deal with personal issues, how to deal with family, how to go out for the first time, or how to walk in high heels. These things are infinitely more important than removing the T from LGBT. No, the world isn't leaving us behind. We've left the world behind.

[susan54]

It could be said that there are three main categories on this site, with little overlap. There are those who are on their way to transitioning to female, novices to the whole thing, and experienced crossdressers (me included) who are confident going out dressed. The recent publicity about famous people re-assigning their gender rather leaves us mere crossdressers out on a limb. I am not sure how far we need to go - I find no problems AT ALL in going out and trying on clothes, getting beauty treatments, or dining out or even staying on hotels. But all of this is anonymous - the last hurdle is being able to do all this openly, going to work or socialising in whatver clothes we want.

[NicoleScott]

I won't comment on all the issues, but only about newborn identification:
When I was born they looked between my legs and said "it's a boy" and wrote "male" on my birth certificate. I was then and still am a biological male. With rare exceptions, people are born male or female. Your suggestion that children be allowed to determine their own , I hope you are referring to gender. That is not so easily determined. There are still way too many people who think gender is just a nicer way to say sex. Note which is asked for on forms you fill out.
A child showing signs of gender-variance doesn't necessarily need gender therapy, but the parents sure could use some counseling.
I'm all for acceptance and accommodation for those who are variant, but not by neutering everyone's sex and gender.

[jenni_xx]

Cynthia - and those things are deleted from this site.

The issues you mention are personal. You say "we've moved on to more important things". I'm sorry, I completely disagree. That is the reason why I highlighted the several threads that appear on the first page of this site. Those are important things, but they are not "MORE important things".

You say that "these things" are infinitely more important than removing the T from LGBT. Too whom? To you?

Your response is one of the reasons why I wrote my post. Your view is so self-centered. It's all about YOU. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it need not be at the expense of anything "other" ("other" to you). This IS an issue, and it should be talked about. You have effectively dismissed it, because it's not something that YOU need to talk about. And that, all said and done, is my issue.

I want to climb out of myself and talk to others who are willing to do the same. Get out of our comfort zone - address the issue, talk about it, not censor it based only on the reason that "I can't be bothered", or "it doesn't affect me".

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Your suggestion that children be allowed to determine their own ,

I have to stop you there.

That is NOT MY suggestion. That is something that I have read.

[AlleyKat]

If that indeed was the entirety of the message in that post, then you are correct and I grossly misinterpreted it, though as you can clearly see, I'm not the only one. Read in the correct light, it sounds like a call to stop the small discussions about day to day life as a cd and to tackle bigger issues. Doing that would be missing the point of this site.

I truly meant no personal disrespect, and am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[NicoleScott]

Yes, you did say you read that. I thought your next sentence, beginning with "Instead", was your comment, not a continuation of what you read. It seems that your entire post was "I have read....."

[Eryn]

Anyone who has been here for a while knows that a chilling effect applies to certain topics of discussion. Some are prohibited directly by the rules, while others are avoided regardless of merit because we have learned that those topics tend to get deleted.

It's a tough balance to maintain, and the admins do as they see fit.

I do feel that the forum is oriented towards older folks. They're the ones who need support and they are the least likely to get it from their own age group. The forum was instrumental in helping me to overcome my irrational fears. Even though certain important topics are verboten, I have at least been able to get in touch with other TG people to discuss them.

[jenni_xx]

If that indeed was the entirety of the message in that post, then you are correct and I grossly misinterpreted it, though as you can clearly see, I'm not the only one. Read in the correct light, it sounds like a call to stop the small discussions about day to day life as a cd and to tackle bigger issues. Doing that would be missing the point of this site.

I truly meant no personal disrespect, and am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Alley

I said in my opening post that "such concerns (which are undoubtedly valid to the person writing them) are "concerns" which should be asked. I'm not for one moment advocating a site in which such concerns shouldn't be asked.

After that I put such concerns in "their place" in the greater scheme of things - what I meant by that was that more serious concerns should and can be discussed, but not at the expense of such personal concerns (which should always, and will always be raised).

For me it's not "one OR the other". It can simply be both.

Alley, I know that you mean no disrespect, but I appreciate you saying that anyway. No need to apologise. I'm finding that in having to explain myself more is down to me not explaining what I meant in the first place, so for that the fault lies with me, not you. I will say though, that the "seemingly" trivial nature of this site, as in "do I look good in this" (as much as it is valued and appreciated and welcomed), may have left to a false sense of security - that everything can be ok, when the truth is that there are so many issues still to be resolved, and we are part of the group who can help resolve them. Instead, we seem to be becoming a subset of the "T" community that is distancing ourselves from the topical issues, and as a result, being left behind.

I've heard so many trans-related stories in the media, on feminist sites, and indeed in public, including my own friends, that simply do not include crossdressers. A while back, we were afforded our own name on equal terms to transgendered people (at that time they were referred to as transsexuals), but now we're falling under the same term - the same umbrella - as transgendered. Yet we are not the same. Just as we're not the same as genderfluid, or bigender, is misgendered. These are all terms that encompasss the subset of the T of LGBT, but it is nevertheless a definition that doesn't define who we actually are. And this is something that is being lost. In translation so to speak.

I see it as a serious issue. And want to discuss it here, with a group who identify the same as I do. Put simply, I want a voice. I don't want to be bracketed with someone who I'm not, even if it is convenient to do so.

[MissDanielle]

My parents think I am mentally ill and don't understand that LGBT isn't a choice.

[AlleyKat]

A little ways off topic, but this really makes me wonder where I fit into all these labels. I am trans g, but do not plan on ever under taking any physical changes. So I will be biologically male in most every sense in the word, and dressing as female. If a clear line needs to be put between trans and cd, where do I, and others like me, fall?

Not really looking for an answer, just musings that come up reading that reply.

[ReineD]

I want to climb out of myself and talk to others who are willing to do the same. Get out of our comfort zone - address the issue, talk about it, not censor it based only on the reason that "I can't be bothered", or "it doesn't affect me".

You are advocating for education, change and activism. This is a good thing. The world does need to become more aware of the rights of TSs (and in a different way CDs … more on this later).

But, in order to engage, one needs to find agreement among a group of people who will then be willing to join in the vehicles for change. This is not going to happen here for the simple reason that the spectrum of CDs/TGs/TSs/non-binaries/fetishists/agenders/polygenders/pangenders/bigenders/man-in-skirts/and every other TG-umbrella faction you can think of is wide indeed and is extremely diverse, not only in self-identification but in the intensity of the desire to dress. Members either have staunch opinions in favor of or against any issue you might want to bring up, or it is not important to them. In other words, not everyone here crossdresses for the same reasons. It’s been my experience that many people come here with a pre-defined idea of who they are and what they want, which no amount of discussion changes.

Back to the parenthetical note in my first paragraph, a great many of our members are not interested in dismantling or upsetting their male status-quo or the notion that gender is non-binary even if it is fun to fantasize about being a woman. This is why you find so many fun-type threads here. This forum is a place to relax for a lot of people and is not a life-line for them.

Besides, just about every topic you mentioned has been and will continue to be covered here. Mods do not delete threads because they are sociological in nature or they are controversial. Mods delete threads because often, members cannot agree and the discussion devolves into flame wars by the vocal few, which I dare say would be counter-productive to your aims. Still, those who are interested in these topics do participate when they come up. Some topics actually are discussed a great deal here (bathroom threads and "TG" definition, sometimes ad nauseam). Some topics dealing with transsexualism are discussed more in the TS section. You’ll find articles dealing with many of the topics you mentioned in the Media section. Sociological topics simply don’t interest everyone, and so those threads seem to have low participation.

So if you’ll take a suggestion, whenever you do find a blog, article, etc that you feel merits discussion, please do post it in the Media section. It will not be deleted, but often there will not be a lot of participation. And of course you will get a lot of discussion about any transition-related topics in the TS section.

In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live".

[Meghan4now]

Wow, Jenni, I think you raise a lot of issues and questions. I really don't see this forum being well equipped to address everything you mentioned in one fell swoop.

First of all, I don't see the demographics of this forum being very homogeneous. Members here are an aggregate of many people on the "TG" spectrum, and are here for a variety of reasons, and are often in vastly different circumstances. We have everything from post op TS ladies to kids spoofing for fun and other trolls. (don't believe me? I got a bridge I can sell you) This is social media. It is going to self organize to a large degree.

I do see some of the topics that you mention from time to time, some with well thought out answers, but just as often poorly tthought out wishful thinking and out and out delusional responses. There are separate areas for interests and topics of greater interest to certain segments.

And yes there are taboo topics that greatly dissapoint me. Religion for one. I get that we really don't want flame wars and I have no interest in starting one, but for many here religion is a hugely important topic. Especially to those who may have a serious issue reconciling past hurts or have been disaffected.

Anyway the forum, as I see it, generally follows what the members want it to be. If you are keen on improving the content, my question for you is what are YOU going to do about it? 430 posts since 2006 doesn't seem like you are contributing to the change you want.

[AngelaYVR]

Angela - I didn't describe any site. No such site exists.

That's why I used "if". "If" this site were to turn into a political, banner waving forum then I would depart. I do not muster under some flag, I venture out on my own terms so that can express myself and find balance in my life. I come here to read the stories of others as they relate to the daily ups and downs of being a CD and occasionally interject my own views.

Fortunately, I can't foresee any of it happening. We are part-timers, most of us, a point that brings the scorn of a lot of TS (not all) down on us with some frequency. We are therefore not so likely to get political as we have an exit hatch and nice silky parachutes.

When I get dressed and interact with the rest of the public, I feel like I'm doing a lot more than the people squabbling over nomenclature and whether or not Jenner is helping or hindering the cause.

[Tracii G]

I understand the activism part as in feminism,trans whatever but some activists can be rude as all get out and super pushy demanding you acknowledge them.
Sort of being in your face and having something to prove.
Types like that nobody likes just because the are rude and hateful.
Most trans women I know just go about life as the woman they are and don't see any reason to be rude.
As a TG/CD I do what they do just go about my day being kind to people I come in contact with.
To me being kind and positive to the general public will do some real good for the trans community in the long run.
Being a snarky, bitchy,rude activist just makes things worse.