Revoking my trans identity - it doesn't belong to me anymore

[jenni_xx]

Kate T

Re "Gender is a social construct" comment. Like I say, I roll my eyes when I see it mentioned. Playing devil's advocate here, those who say this would seemingly counter your comment by saying you're not referring to gender, but to biological sex.

I, personally, don't know where I stand on this particular issue. I've read some very convincing arguments both for and against, but it does seem to boil down to how the word "gender" is, not so much defined, but rather interpreted. I do feel that people who engage in such a debate are arguing the same point, but from a different perception as to what the word is meant to convey. For example, some have a problem with trans women being identified as female but not being identified as women. Others however have a problem with trans women being called women at all. It's a linguistic minefield, or so it seems!

Re your comment about Caitlyn Jenner. Firstly, it's not that I'm wanting to claim "true diversity". It's that I no longer feel that I can relate to how people both within and outside of the trans "community" (sorry Krissi) are (for want of a better word) defining transgendered people. I simply can not relate anymore. So I'm looking inward, towards myself, and instead of trying to change or "rail against "prejudices"", I'm instead asking myself, maybe I'm not trans at all - if I can't relate to any perceived understanding or definition of what the word means, then maybe that's because the word and it's meaning has no value to me. So I like to wear women's clothing? Well, apparently, there are people who are now saying that that doesn't even equate to being "transgender". Rather it simply equates to being "gender fluid".

In respect to Caitlyn Jenner - if regarding her as a joke, as a person who is removed from society, makes me a guilty of bigotry, then I'm guilty of bigotry. That said, what I can't abide is the pedastal that Caitlyn resides. Just as, I presume, many many women can't abide Kim Kardashian et al. Does that make such women bigots against women? If I am a bigot for not liking Caitlyn Jenner for "being herself", then women the world over are bigots for not liking Kim K for "being herself" either.

With all due respect, I don't have to carefully re-read what I wrote. I know exactly what I am getting at. If you think that makes me a bigot at worst, or hypocritical at least, then so be it.

[Katey888]

Hello again Jenni...

Well done for thinking hard after New Year and giving us further thinkers something to chew on!

There are some good points already, a couple I think are worth highlighting:

It is ironic that some participants in this forum seem to be saying "This is what a crossdresser is, or isn't" in a way that seems to invalidate an alternate viewpoint. Everyone here has felt the sting of the bi -gendered world's condemnation and want to find inclusiveness. To then turn on another and knock them for being different is incomprehensible. All in all, I find more positives here than negatives.

Incomprehensible is the right word, Suzanne - but then when you realise that there aren't any selection criteria to come here and post, it's not really surprising that we're burdened with a bigoted minority the same as the real world is. Some of this comes down to insecurity - a lot of folk seem worried that being TS, gay/bi or both is contagious and can be caught via the interwebs... how silly. Or it may be that they justifiably fear that this might play on the minds of their presently accepting wives and be a catalyst for non-acceptance or worse - regardless: it doesn't warrant bullying people into any mode of expression or behaviour just because it better suits their circumstance. Difference is widespread here - we should not just accept it; we should celebrate our diversity. (BTW Suzanne - you should post more here!)

Jenni - an interesting start - I picked out this segment from a later post that speaks to me:

Could it be that male crossdressers are attracted to female things, in order to express a female identity that ultimately distances themselves from the pressures that society puts upon men within that society? That is, it becomes an escape from themselves?

The only mind one can never escape from is their own. Is THAT the reason/rationale behind all of this? Which maybe would suggest that the one thing that binds crossdressers together is a sensitivity that enables us to see the world, or rather want to see the world in which we live from a different point of view?

I think this is part of it - and coming to your OP might be why the trans-activist part of the community doesn't speak for you? I think it would be fair to say that most trans-activism is focused on enabling rights for TS folk related to healthcare, employment, benefits, awareness, etc. I don't think this should be surprising as in our rather broad community, they are the ones that are most burdened by their condition, and where society and the organs of state need to change to recognise and support them. Like you, I don't feel that their activism supports me in any practical way or represents me and what I need, but it does represent my belief that in a fully fair and decent, democratic society, we should have the right representation and protection of minorities within that society that gives them access to the same rights and services that everyone have, even where that support is specific to their needs.

I don't wake up in the morning and feel part of this community in a way that I either benefit practically or feel the need to have something changed that would protect my trans* nature, but I can choose to add my voice and presence to that community, in order that some good will come of being in a community with one more countable head than otherwise. I'm trying to think of a metaphor for this and (with deference to the UK GGs here) the Women's suffragette movement is one that springs to mind. A few strongly minded and committed activists were necessary to voice the demands and take action to force the changes - I'm sure they weren't supported by every woman in the country, nor did they represent every voice, but the nature of society is that we do concede some of our individuality in order to benefit from being recognised as part of a group.

You don't have to feel that every day, and as far as feeling that some in this community are less open-minded than we'd like, you also don't have to read or comprehend what the idiots think and write here - just ignore it... Spare a thought for me and the other mods, as we have to go through it whether we like it or not!

I'm interested what you had to say about being accepted as trans once you had identified as gay - that kinda reinforces the truth that stereotypes remain strong in the outside world, and the apparently confusing conflict of a hetero male wanting to present as a female remains more challenging to the muggles than accepting that gender presentation has nothing to do with sexuality. I can understand that too, but that is where the benefit of more awareness comes in as the world becomes more aware of trans* folk in general and that their sexuality is as diverse as the vanilla world.

Thought provoking...

Katey x

[marshalynn]

Jenni-xx ,I think you are happy making your own problems, feel sorry for you, good luck and good by. Marshalynn

[mykell]

hi jenni,
there are more positives than negatives, examples of both here already,
for the most part like anything in life is you get out of it what you put into it....but this being the interweb you have to take things from where they come from.

each member has theyre own personality and priority, some share only to further theyre cause, some to help selflessly, nudge a total stranger to come to terms with theyre perceived isolation or persecution, good vs evil and what-not.

so if you leave im sure you will be missed, if you stay you may be surprised, even though some dont agree we are ALL in this together, some are just better soldiers than others....some topics are more interesting than others.....some members can put theyre thoughts down better than others....but we have a common quirk that binds us together no matter where we travel on the spectrum.....were gender non-conforming and were making progress.... a snails pace perhaps....

as for the puberty blockers, i sit with lots of teens and parents in my support group....theyre doctors are not passing out these drugs like doctors spouting out way too many prescriptions for Ritalin, and when you see a childs smile when they share that they just started theyre blockers with us in the group, its undeniable that the right choice was made, i just dont think deep down a parent would be allowed to make a johnny into a jane if the soul of that child doesnt match....

[Tracii G]

I see another thread where a person lets their opinion and feelings out only to get jumped on by the social justice warrior types.
She said her peace so leave it at that and let her be her.
Arguing among ourselves is not productive.

[Dana44]

I see your point Jennie. I came to this thread not really knowing how I fit into the trans environment and what my issues were. This thread actually helped me put things in perspective. Of course there are the naysayers and encouragers but in any place where you have more than a dozen people you will get that. Also many of us have identified our sexual preferences. Even if you are gay, this trans community is a stable area where one can find answers. Whether they like those answers is another subject in itself.

[Tracii G]

Its funny when I came out and said I was gay there were several ladies here that stopped even talking to me.

[JanePeterson]

The only tie that binds us here is a bit of gender confusion... The rest of life has shaped who we are in 100 other different ways a it's no surprise to me that significant friction exists between us, as we're as different as can be. The question in my mind is... What actually DOES ties us together?

[JessMe]

Jenni,
Who and what we are "is what it is." Based on our own feelings and experience in this crazy life. Identifying or not identifying with a particular group or label is our choice. ...I'm going to try to tread carefully here (so as not to be political), but if the mods don't approve, then I expect them to do what they do. Think about it in broader terms: I'm white. I'm from the south. ...does that automatically mean that I'm somehow predisposed to burning crosses and lynching minorities? NOPE. Sure: I'm a white southerner, and I identify as such, but that's where it ends. Within almost every group, there exists a "bell curve"... and more often than not, you'll find that those you identify most closely with are somewhere in the middle. I guess what I'm saying is that your decision is just that. And it should be respected... but it should also be considered on a deeper and more conscious level. ...just my $.02. Keep the change.

[Tracii G]

JessMe get ready to be called everything but a milk cow.LOL

[Rachelakld]

My thoughts - transgender means not locked in to the binary gender system

There are more stories of children being allowed to live the way they "currently" feel, rather than being having negative lables such as sissyboy.
The adults really are trying their best to accomodate their children (and break the old trend of "manning boys up"), and to allow the world to undrestand what the child and family are going through and thus make the world safer for their children - don't we all want that?

Just the way the gays of the 80's were labled as Heroes - as when they came out and became role models to others who may have otherwise committed self harm.

[heatherdress]

Jenni - I feel for your frustration. I know I cannot understand your search for identity and a place to fit in. One belief I have about this site, or community, it does not represent or reflect anyone. It is a forum of so many different personalities, ideals, behaviors. Maybe you expect too much from such a diverse group. We have in common that we wear women's clothing but the commonality starts to end there. That's why differences of opinion are common and must be respected. I hope you do not leave this community. Everyone is important here - everyone. Your self-discovery journey through life is your own adventure and I hope you find peace, happiness and acceptance. But you are not the only one who does not have all the answers, or who feels rejected or who does not like the way society treats those of us who are different.

Maybe you should reconsider and continue being a member of this site. We need each other. We need you.

[flatlander_48]

I didn't say that it was. Why you have chosen to mention a particular (important) issue in response I don't quite understand. What you have mentioned here is not what I am talking about. That is a specific issue, that does need to be addressed, but it doesn't need to be addressed to me, in respect of my response to you. My point was clear: while it is all too easy to bracket people as being one and the same, this is CLEARLY NOT the case.

No. It may be easy, but it is silly to do so. Anyone that would actually think about it would realize that there is considerable variance within ANY group. However, where this can happen is the example I cited. People often exaggerate in order to attempt to strengthen their point; ulterior motive as I pointed out. It is not unusual that transgender folks get slandered in this way as we're viewed as sort of a throwaway population. If people remain silent, who will counter erroneous (and in many cases purposefully so) statements? The media will not fix erroneous statements, not even their own. After all, remember these are the folks who morphed the term Transgender into something that it doesn't mean. So, who's left to point out misconceptions and bad information?

Oh, but then, hang on a moment, in the very same post of yours, you go on to say the following: "at some point you do have to speak collectively". Which drives exactly at the heart of what I am actually arguing against. I say, no, I don't have to speak collectively. The only way *I* could speak collectively, or rather have my voice heard *collectively* and agreed with *collectively* is if the community to which I am speaking about agree with what I am saying *collectively*.

So, you will change public perceptions and laws by yourself? Good luck with that! Further, Speaking Collectively does NOT mean unilateral agreement. When does that ever happen? What it does mean is that there are certain points with which people find sufficient comonality and agreement that they can to go forward. You want to build in an absolute and that is not how it works.

Yet that is completely at odds to what I was actually trying to say when I created this post. My point is that how I feel DOES NOT equate to the collective voice. And it's for that reason that I don't want this collective voice to speak for me.

So, as far as you are concerned, the plight of transgender people is just fine? I assume by Manchester that indicates Manchester in the UK as opposed to New Hampshire. I don't know the specifics in the UK, but here in the US, legal protections around Gender Expression are very uneven. Some places have those protections in place, but most do not. It is silly to expect that if people quit publicly advocating for those protections, they will magically appear on the books as laws.

Yet you have chosen to use one example to make your point (when you talked about YOUR experience with your "soon to be former employer".

That was to illustrate the relationship between Cause and Effect and the possibilities of how Events and Consequences may be connected.

Nonetheless, I asked a question "have you ever seen" - to which you didn't respond by saying yes you have or no you haven't. Go back and read my question again, and this time please, try to answer directly.

Of course I have seen those those kinds of situations, but I don't try to extrapolate them into a body of evidence. That is the difference.

I can cite several examples of this, but they are all anecdotal - admittedly - yet they are still examples that are widespread and common - hence why they have become a stereotype with their OWN identification - eg, tom boy, girly boy, effeminate, etc etc. These are real examples that happen and occur all the time and to deny them is to be ignorant of the truth. What is important is, not to deny that such exists (for they do), but to try and understand why such identities exist. For that is to get to the heart of the matter.

You sound like there is an epidemic of people deliberately upsetting the true nature of their children's gender identity and I don't believe that is the case. As I said above, within any group there is considerable variance. Statistically, some variations are more common than others. This is not a measure of validity one way or the other. It is just how things occur. Similarly, some people will be 5'-8" and others will be 6'-1". It's just how it happens.

So, your turn:

How do you expect change to happen if everyone remains silent in order to prevent backlast? How does that work exactly?

DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

Jenni, at one time, I felt a lot like u. It was just after I came out online here after 10 years of dressing in a complete vacuum.

At first, I was over joyed to find others "like me" here. I began posting about how dressing got me excited and turned on it. This was 8 years ago and I got my head handed to me quite often!
I soon realized I wasn't like others here. And, have only I've become more certain of it since then.

However, here's my suggestion to u: Do what I did next. After a number of personal PM's from members, I was intrigued with what CD/TS's were like in person. I began attending T conventions and have met countless dressers over the years. When u meet others, hear their stories, and experience their varied personalities? I believe u will feel as I do. We r NOT the same at all!

Many dressers spend their early years struggling with their "difference" from the vanillas. And, when they find others like themselves they may feel they have suddenly found where they belong, their community, their home. After all those difficult alone years, can u blame them? But, if u talk with them one on one, you'll find most r remarkably self aware folks with VERY different opinions in private. Often, quite different from what they may post here!

I'm not sure I even identify as trans anymore. And, I know I am quite different from other T's. But, I've come full circle and have come to realize how much I have in common with them/us! Go out and meet other dressers and see how u feel about trans then.

I identify with Caitlyn, by the way. She wants to dress her way. And, neither wants to or pretends to represent the "community". Go ahead and dislike her for being a media attention w---e. But, NOT for being the, "Wrong kind of trans", just because she's doing it her way.
I think we ALL do our own way.

[Tracii G]

CJ has her own way and nobody needs to stick their nose in her business.

[flatlander_48]

doc:

No matter how you slice it, you are one of a kind and I mean that as a sincere compliment. You're definitely the embodiment of Go Big or Go Home!

It's interesting that you have said at other times how you were not brave enough to go out without sherry's mask. On the other hand, I cannot imagine going out wearing a mask. Buried in there somewhere is a fascinating commentary on human nature and human perception. Beginning with what are probably similar desires, we wind up in very different places. Simply fascinating to me...

DeeAnn

[AmandaM]

I agree with this thread. There is a vocal element that will attack conservative thought. That's not very inclusive. Everyone is supposed to have a seat at the table, whether you like what they have to say or not.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

It seems odd to me that you invest so much in the opinions of some members that you feel you have to depart. The forum is a microcosm of life- there are many people in daily life who I choose not to hang out with- vast swathes of society: I don't do sports incl F1 (sorry Katey!), religion, pubs, social media, television, parenting, political voting; but I still have a social circle and a lovely wife, and I still get enormous pleasure and interest out of this forum, and a great part of the pleasure is in reading the thoughts of people who think differently to me.

Lighten up maybe? Don't take yourself and others so seriously? And if you've received pecks to the head from certain hens...well don't stick your head under their beaks. This is a playground, not a battlefield.

[Tina_gm]

I think Jennie cd said it quite well. Is being somewhere (regardless of where) on the spectrum is what should completely define us or describe us? Is it really all of what we are, or who we are? It is definitely part of it, but 1st and foremost we are just people. People who are in a pretty small minority. Most of us take actions like dressing in opposite gender clothing. We don't actually HAVE TO. For most of us it certainly helps us cope with our minority of gender feelings. Ultimately, regardless if we are casual cders, hardly ever dressing, or ts who have or are transitioning, it is an internal feeling. How we decide to cope with it is for ourselves and ourselves alone. Nothing we do or don't do is right or wrong.

We come here seeking the advice, help, console, encouragemental or just the company of those who are also in the minority. So often we are our own biggest obstacle. We take it too seriously, when for most of us, it really isn't life or death. In some cases of severe or extreme GD it can be. But for the majority of the people who post on the general mtf section, it isnt. It's about dealing with our minority and quality of life. Often, we are the most guilty of making it all too complicated, to serious, too scary, too difficult

[jeanieinabottle]

Hey Jenni,
I spent 50+ years of chaos and confusion, trying to put myself into a specific box in an effort to understand who and what I was. Being a doc and by my training and practice, I tried to define myself by precision, by trying to fit myself into a neat little package with no questions left unanswered. But it wasn’t until a little more than 6 years ago, that I finally found peace when, like being hit in the head by lightning (bad medically), I realized while I have similarities as well as differences with many others on this forum, that I am me and only I am me. I had previously tried so hard to find exactly where I fit that I only tended to get more muddled down by names and descriptions, what I should or shouldn’t do, and therefore lost sight of the forest because of the trees, ie. who I really was. Realizing now that I am an individual when I previously tried to group myself into some ill-defined “category” is what allows me now to enjoy who I am and therefore, ALL I am.

As can be seen by my very limited number of posts, I tend to be a casual but daily observer of the threads on this forum and raise my voice only when medical matters come into discussion because this is my domain and is fun, or, similarly to what I believe you feel, when people try to talk for me or tell me what I should do. But what is good for the goose is not always good for the gander (or maybe we should include or substitute “other goose” for gander on a technical basis.). I need to be me and speak for myself when I need to say something or fear losing the peace and individuality that I found and now enjoy. Opinions are tossed around freely. But they are only opinions based around specific sets of individual variables which often may not apply to me and I’ve learned to take them, as they should be, with a grain of salt. While I do think that communities do gain benefit from looking for similarities rather than differences (just look at the mess with the political situation here in the US when differences are emphasized and nothing gets accomplished), we still cannot lose our individuality, our identity, our autonomy and therefore our individual voice. So hopefully I might understand a good portion of what you feel. The most important thing for me is to be myself, find my own peace, whether with the help of others or by myself, speak for myself and no one else, and live life according to my vision, not someone else’s and wish for you the peace that I have found.
Peace.
Dr. J.

[barbara gordon]

Hi Jenni_xx
I hope that you do not leave this group.

it is really great that we have a forum like this, and its so valuable to find that there are lots of other people out there that can't fit into ordinary expectations of gender identity .

I have been searching the web since the mid 1990"s for anything and every thing to help me understand my own perspective about my own gender status .
My perspective changes from time to time . My body says that I am mostly male . But My brain and my heart says otherwise .


This is an inclusive forum that ranges wide from those who are just
discovering this "thing about themselves" to those who are seasoned cd /tg /ts/gender-etc. veterans .

As with all of society , there are variables . So many of those variables in the bigger society are considered taboo. Crossdressing and other presentations gender variations are clearly a type of taboo to the bigger society . But here ,on this forum we can discuss it . openly to each other . We don't always have to agree on the definitions of terms and the splitting of words , but here we are .
thank you for starting this thread . It brings out a lot of critical thought and an active discussion .

[sometimes_miss]

Jenni, if you're transsexual, you're transsexual, being gay has nothing to do with self identification. You don't have to be what other people are. Each has their own niche in the huge TG community. What we have in common, is that we don't fit the average straight person list of feelings and behaviors. But the feelings and behaviors that we do identify with are quite varied.

Could it be that male crossdressers are attracted to female things, in order to express a female identity that ultimately distances themselves from the pressures that society puts upon men within that society? That is, it becomes an escape from themselves?

That begs the question of whether it's the escape from masculinity, or the rush towards femininity. Or a some of both. There is a group that believes we are all 'failed men'; that we embrace the feminine because we can't 'make it' as a male, either to society, our mate, or ourselves. Then we have the flip side, in two parts: One, those who are TS but can't face it, so say it's just all about the clothes as they go on about changing their voice, growing breasts, practicing mannerisms to be as female as possible. Two, true TS who feel so out of place that they will do almost anything to become the female they feel that they are. Three, those of us who feel like we're supposed to be female, but without most of the primarily recognized associative feelings and behaviors that would be congruent with being female. I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head at the moment.

[sarahcsc]

This reminds me of the plight of the muslims, who are being misrepresented by ISIS and radicalized islamists. The muslims would argue that these fundamentalists do not represent them, but it does little to lessen the stigma and discrimination.

Sometimes, the most vocal of a group have also the most 'extreme' in values. There are militant trans both out there and here in the forum and I suspect even they themselves don't see eye to eye with with each other.

Jenni, you can leave, but the real question is, where would you go? Leave, and you risk other people misrepresenting you.

Or you can join the ranks of activists yourself and fight for what you think is right, you sound pretty articulate to me.

I like it when people send me negative pms, or when the content of my posts are censored, because that means I'm hitting the spot.

Depending on how passionate I am on the topic, I will devote energy to keep 'hitting the spot'.

Don't be afraid if nobody agrees with you, or that you don't garner a following. After all, you are not doing it for them.

Remember Charlie Hebdo? Those guys are my heroes.

And Flatlander is right, if you don't speak up, nothing will happen. The ball is in your court now.


Love,
S

[Krisi]

CJ has her own way and nobody needs to stick their nose in her business.

Until she puts her business on a web forum on the Internet. That's an invitation for discussion.

[Teresa]

Jenni,
On the whole I don't like the way the media treats any of us across the spectrum, I can't believe how they can say they researched their articles and yuet get it so wrong, the problem the mas market will read this stuff.
I wrote to the Daily Mail about an article entitled , " My crossdressing husband is a bully !" The fact was his behavior had nothing to do with CDing and yet that suggested the two could go together.
Some trans people do use or misuse the media, if we don't like it we don't have to read it but it will still affect us because others have read it and believed it all.
I guess we just have stick with it and try harder to get the voice of reason heard !