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Thread: Your Opinion

  1. #1
    If only dreams came true. susancheerleader's Avatar
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    Your Opinion

    It doesn't take a math major to see that the Male to Female thread has more users.
    So that got me to wondering. Are there GGs that "cross dress" but don't believe they are because society allows it? Thus, they wouldn't consider themselves a cross dresser.
    When a person sees a girl dressed in mens trousers, and a mans shirt, no one thinks about it. Even if the girl has no intention to pass. But when a guy wears anything then what society considers "men’s clothing" then we are considered freaks of nature UNLESS we go out of our way to "pass" Even then it is questionable what people think. I see this as a double standard and seeing the difference between male to female and female to male forums make me wonder even more. Is the difference because of society accepting, or because you don't consider yourself a cross dresser or because there really aren’t that many female to male dressers? Which goes back to the “why” question.

  2. #2
    On the Capn's Ship Kimberley's Avatar
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    Susan, I agree with you 100%. IT IS A DOUBLE STANDARD! At least in most cases.

    My wife thinks nothing of raiding my closets for shirts (I have some gorgeous real silk ones that she is particularly fond of), ties, or my dresser for socks or taking a coat or my hiking boots etc etc. She doesnt see this as crossdressing in any way but ANY attempt in the past by me to crossdress using my own clothing (I would never use hers) has been near suicide. Go figure.

    Arrrrrrrgggghhhhh!

    Hugs to all.
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  3. #3
    Fire what fire. mistunderstood's Avatar
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    I can were mens clothes and no one cares. I think because people do not reconize it. Mens dress shirts,pants,coats are similer to womens. For M2F when you wear a skirt it is easier to spot. I think it is the skirt. Please I mean no offence.I try to just be part of the crowd. Guys are not really flashy.
    F2M's are small in numbers becase we do not know were to go. If you research available resources out there it is more for M2F's. We are silent brother's and I have seen a surge in numbers since I have joined this group. I have been on-line looking for my brother's out there and we are coming out so as word spreads you might see more of us.

    Please everyone take no offence to anything I have writen. It is just what I think.

  4. #4
    On the Capn's Ship Kimberley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistunderstood
    I can were mens clothes and no one cares. I think because people do not reconize it. Mens dress shirts,pants,coats are similer to womens. For M2F when you wear a skirt it is easier to spot. I think it is the skirt. Please I mean no offence.I try to just be part of the crowd. Guys are not really flashy.
    F2M's are small in numbers becase we do not know were to go. If you research available resources out there it is more for M2F's. We are silent brother's and I have seen a surge in numbers since I have joined this group. I have been on-line looking for my brother's out there and we are coming out so as word spreads you might see more of us.

    Please everyone take no offence to anything I have writen. It is just what I think.
    *********
    Misunderstood,

    Why would anyone here take offense? I think you guys are great! All the more power to you. Something I have noticed here is that you guys all have a greater sense of self than most of us M2F's. There seems to be a greater peace with who you are and where you are going.

    I also think you guys are focused on transition moreso than the rest of us so again that makes a difference too.

    As you said though, society just isnt ready for men in tights... no pun intended.

    I wonder if they will ever be tolerant. Acceptance is highly unlikely for us.

    HUGS.
    Kimberley.

    (Great thread)
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  5. #5
    Rainbow Rennie Butterfly Bill's Avatar
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    When a woman regularly wears men's pants and shirt, and is never seen in a dress or skirt, lot of people (i included) will start to infer that she is a lesbian. I have observed this style of dress being preferred by a number of friends and acquaintances who were (like at the Unity Church of Lawrence). I was at a Hunter Davis concert and there wasn't a single person out of maybe 100 in that room who didn't have trousers on.

  6. #6
    Silver Member SherriePall's Avatar
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    I once had this argument with my wife. I said that she wore pants. But they're women's pants, she replied. Maybe, but at one time women could not wear pants. In fact, if I remember correctly several large cities had laws against women wearing pants.
    Anyhow, if I was really thinking that day, I would have reminded her that women's pants at one time had the zipper on the side. Remember those, anyone? Now they have the zipper in front just like men's pants which have them there for a reason I can't remember.
    Sherrie Lynn Pall

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  7. #7
    Fire what fire. mistunderstood's Avatar
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    Sometimes it is hard for me to write my opinon down and watch out for the verbal language of the wide world of C/D'ing. Every place has it slange words and I try not to be a complete idiot and assume we all use the same words.

  8. #8
    On the Capn's Ship Kimberley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistunderstood
    Sometimes it is hard for me to write my opinon down and watch out for the verbal language of the wide world of C/D'ing. Every place has it slange words and I try not to be a complete idiot and assume we all use the same words.
    ***************
    Personally I really dont see a whole lot of difference when you come right down to it. All of us have some sort of "gender dysphoria" if you want to be clinical about it. I think some of us are more willing than others to accept that. I for one have no illusions about myself, where I have been, where I am, or, well.... who knows?

    I think that if our histories were written there would be more similarities than differences so please dont hesitate to put your ideas down, and in your own words. Everything else is semantics. They (your ideas) will be respected.

    Hugs.
    Kimberley.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    www.transgenderlondon.com

    Venus and Mars are not aligned; Good thing.
    Where are all the rumballs?
    I may not soar with eagles, but then weasels dont get sucked into jet engines...

  9. #9
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by susancheerleader
    Are there GGs that "cross dress" but don't believe they are because society allows it? Thus, they wouldn't consider themselves a cross dresser. Is the difference because of society accepting, or because you don't consider yourself a cross dresser or because there really aren’t that many female to male dressers? Which goes back to the “why” question.
    Hmmm . . . good questions. Never really thought about it much before, but here's my answer, if you're really interested.

    For most of my life I have worn pants (or trousers for our friends across the pond), "sensible" shoes and other clothing such as sweaters, shirts and blazers that I considered women's clothes because they were made for the size and shape of my body - that is, a female body. These clothes also contained colors and patterns that are considered feminine, so I never thought of these as male clothing and never considered myself a crossdresser when I wore them. I cannot speak for GG's, but I imagine most of them may feel the same way.

    The difference for me now is that, although I still wear some clothing that is made for a female body, most of these have more masculine patterns, textures and colors, and the rest of my wardrobe now consists of decidedly male items such as ties, vests, and clothing sold exclusively at men's stores. Now I do consider myself a crossdresser and I still don't believe that most women are crossdressing when they wear pants or shirts because those are pants or shirts that were made specifically for women (with the possible exception of those that borrow their husband's clothes).

    Again, I can't speak for GG's and I can't even speak for other FtMs, but I think it's more about self-image and attitude. I considered myself mostly female before and now I've come to see that the pendulum has swung the other way and I'm mostly male, so I want my outward appearance to reflect that. It's what makes me comfortable and makes me feel more like me. So, for me, the clothes don't make the man - the man is already there or he isn't and a pair of pants doesn't make a female a crossdresser.

    Savvy?
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #10
    Junior Member Gilded Graper's Avatar
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    Some history

    Small history of Anti F2M CD in old NYC to not so old SF.

    In 1960, NYC had laws against crossdressing on top of the anti GLBT society all arounds us. No wonder I knew just about every 24/7-F2M CD, all 4 of them!

    Soon after Stonewall the women's liberation and lesbians attacked the F2M community as a being ashamed of being a woman.

    Even in the mid 1980's, my F2M pre-op TS pal was not allowed in or asked to leave, at EVERY lesbian bar in San Francisco.

    "We don't want your kind here," was one direct quote and she was with a group of all lebians. This was Amelia on Lesbian Lane.

    Yet ALL of them allowed HRT queens in !!!

    By 1992, Castro (male gay area) many F2M were there, had mustache and/or stubbles, with gay men's hair cut and wearing the latest Gay men fashion.

    They reminded me of 1960, when the street queens looked like butch dykes... that's what antidrag laws made queens look like.

    Then there's the old F2M in the 1920's, who about the diapearance of 24/7-F2M and bemoaned how women's liberation had taken away "the sense of (F2M) advenure" From Johnathan Katz's "Gay American History" 1st ed.
    Last edited by Gilded Graper; 02-18-2006 at 08:35 AM.

  11. #11
    24/7 knicker wearer Helen MC's Avatar
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    Over here in the UK it has generally been easier for a female to wear male clothing. WW2 helped here as not only were there women in the Industries replacing men who had been called-up to the Forces, but there were also the ATS and WRAC, WRENS and WAAFS, Women's Land Army where women were in Uniform albeit in non-combat roles. In many of these situations, both Industrial and Forces they had to wear trousers (pants to US readers) and other rather masculine clothing. After the war rationing over here including clothing continued into the mid 1950s and many women did continue to wear trousers. I can remember my Mum wearing these, she called them "slacks" but they were trousers and the likes of Conductresses on buses etc wore then as their uniform as it "preserved their modesty" that is hid their knickers when they went upstairs on a double deck bus .

    Unless she comes out and makes a "statement" of it a woman who for sexual or other reasons wishes to wear male clothes has had it a lot easier than a male to female CD like most of us who post here. She can wear the most butch and macho clothing and nobody would bat an eyelid and also can buy male clothing such as male underpants etc and nobody is the slightest bit concerned as they will assume that she is buying these for her husband, boyfriend, son, etc. She can then wear them herself if she wants to under her trousers or even under her skirt if she is wearing one and nobody would be any the wiser. Indeed we now have "Boy Leg" briefs for women, not that I would want to wear these myself, but I simply cannot see "Girl Style" panties being marketed for men. In contrast to this even today a man buying female undies such as panties, bras slips etc, even if he is well versed in the cover story that these are for his wife etc and knows the correct size (his own) is still likely to be looked upon in a strange way and even have unwanted comments addressed to him by female sales staff at the counter or check-out when a woman buying male underpants attracts no attention nor comment.

    Of course unless he is very convincing, e.g. Ru Paul, Dana International, some Thai Katoi, a man in "drag" to use the common parlance, is likely to be identified as such and unlike his female equivalent F to M CD is seen as a threat, an insult to masculinity and often attracts verbal and physical abuse.
    [SIZE="5"]Helen[/SIZE]

  12. #12
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen MC
    Of course unless he is very convincing . . . a man in "drag" . . . is likely to be identified as such and unlike his female equivalent F to M CD is seen as a threat, an insult to masculinity and often attracts verbal and physical abuse.
    Some good points in your post, Helen, but I beg to differ on this one. FtMs are also seen as a threat, an insult to femininity (and even to lesbianism) and can also attract verbal and physical abuse. It may not make the papers very often, but it happens. :mad:
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  13. #13
    Rainbow Rennie Butterfly Bill's Avatar
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    I remember this: it is 1965, I am stationed at NAS North Island in the middle of San Diego Bay, and my sister who lives in LA is down visiting me with her husband, and we are walking around Coronado looking for a place to eat, and she is telling me, "We have to remember now that I am in pants, and a woman can't go just anywhere wearing pants." This is as late as the 60s.

  14. #14
    Silver Member gennee's Avatar
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    There's more out there

    I see your point and I agree with you. The gay community sees transgenders as a threat. I don't see the logic in their fears since we face the same discrimination as they. I know there's FTM's out there who are still closeted.As a MTF I would love for Ftm's to be heard and noticed.

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  15. #15
    Action crossdresser Marlena Dahlstrom's Avatar
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    Women wearing pants is no longer crossdressing in Western culture because women successfully appropriated them during the past century. (Also it should be pointed out they typically wear men's-styled clothing, not actual men's clothing.) But when women first started wearing pants it was considered taboo gender bending and things like Deut. 22:5 were invoked against them. As late as the 1960s women might get sent home from work for wearing pants. (Incidently, let's dispell the myth that "women can wear whatever they want." A GG in hooker-wear at the mall will get stared at just as much as a CD would.)

    But the bigger issue is the (unfortunately still unequal) status of men and women. FTM crossdressing has a long history and was often tacitly accepted because it was considered "natural" that women would aspire to the greater freedoms and opportunities afforded men. (The Catholic church actually has a number of female saints who were crossdressers, most notably Joan of Arc, who was actually burned for crossdressing not heresy.) Whereas the rare publically-known historical cases of crossdressing invariably involved men who were powerful enough to get away with the potential loss of status involved in imitating women.

    (See the Bullough's "Cross Dressing, Sex, and Gender" for a detailed account of crossdressing in Western history.)
    Last edited by Marlena Dahlstrom; 02-19-2006 at 12:33 AM.
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  16. #16
    plutogirl daniellalee's Avatar
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    it's all about fads

    It is all a question of fads. Styles of dress for men and women have all changed drastically through the ages. There was a fad in europe where feminine dressing men were considered manly. It is all a sign of the times. the truth is most MTF crossdressers are trying there best to look like women anyway. Women wearing pants is not considered crossdressing anymore because fads have changed. Most women who wear pants or a guys shirt are not trying to look like a guy. Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl.

  17. #17
    24/7 knicker wearer Helen MC's Avatar
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    Antagonism by Homosexuals and Lesbians

    It saddens me that one sexual minority who know only too well the feel of negative discrimination and abuse will attack another, e.g. Lesbians who are nasty to F to M CDs and Male Homosexuals who rail against M to F CDs. I was once in a bar in my home town where a man who was known as a Gay Activist and thus quite open in his Homosexuality was speaking about TVs and referred to one as "a Dirty little Tranny" . He was of course unaware of my being a CD albeit only at home alone. I would have thought that a united front against bigotry and Red-neck abuse would be a far better policy.

    Now how would you consider the man I saw yesterday? I have seen this fellow before in my town so he must be a local or perhaps visits often. I was in a shopping mall and seated at a table outside one of the cafe's was a man in his early 20s and his girlfriend/wife. Now both were wearing identical outfits. Black velvet jackets and black blouses, but the important part was that both had on black pleated skirts (not a kilt) about a couple of inches above the knee. Both also wore black knee length boots . I have to admit that as they sat down I had a look up their skirts, she had on a pair of yellow panties, his were pale blue. He was not trying to pass as a female as he had a proper black beard, not a goatee or one of those silly black lines or chin beards that some modern men wear. He also was flat chested the skirt and panties were the only female clothing he was wearing as far as I could see. My guess is that he could be a fetishistic CD who enjoys wearing the same clothing as his female SO and especially likes to wear a skirt rather than trousers.
    [SIZE="5"]Helen[/SIZE]

  18. #18
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniellalee
    Most women who wear pants or a guys shirt are not trying to look like a guy. Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl.
    You've hit the nail on the head, hon. That's exactly the point I was trying to make (in my own verbose way). Thanks.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  19. #19
    If only dreams came true. susancheerleader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniellalee
    Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl.
    So, why can't a guy wear a skirt (not a kilt) or something, and still "look like a man" with a beard or whatever. You can still tell HE is a MAN.

  20. #20
    plutogirl daniellalee's Avatar
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    i wish

    I wish guys could just wear whatever they want whether or not they still look like a guy or not and i wish a girl could just wear what they want even if they look like a guy but again it's all about fads. It's not fashionable for a guy to wear a skirt in America and other countries at this time. Perhaps someday it will be. It used to be unfashionable for women to wear pants but now it is totally accepted by most people. Look to the things that inspire the masses, the media, musicians, fashion, etc. These things will create subcultures that grow and become ideals of society.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Bev06 GG's Avatar
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    Hi Susan,

    Who said that life is fair. I have a partner who dresses and I know he would be ridiculed if it were to become common knowledge. I also have a tom boy daughter, who altho only ten, is adamant that she wants to be a boy, and always has done. If she continued down that line I doubt whether she would get a second glance, because as you so rightly pointed out it is more accepted. It does make you wonder whether or not it has anything to do with women standing up for their rights and fighting for equality. Maybe we got more than we bargained for when we chained ourselves to the railings, and have become more equal. Or maybe its just that fellas that want to dress up are regarded as sissy's, and women who want to dress up are considered to be strong, independant, self reliant individuals.
    I dunno
    Take care
    BEVxxx

  22. #22
    On the Capn's Ship Kimberley's Avatar
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    Interesting points.

    It does seem odd though that Jean-Paul Gaultier, one of the world's premier (if not a little eccentric) fashion designers couldnt seem to make the breakthrough. Obviously he saw a market (us) for pret a porte, but the rest of the world wouldnt accept it then or now.

    Oh well. Some day maybe...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    I may not soar with eagles, but then weasels dont get sucked into jet engines...

  23. #23
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    It's funny, I just got back from a session with my therapist where we discussed something about this. Specifically, about how I didn't realize (until he pointed it out) that I do care what people think about me when I crossdress. Not people in general, but people who know me - friends and co-workers, for example. I always thought I was free to do as I pleased without giving anyone else's opinion a second thought, but I realize he's right . . . I do think about it. And this revelation led me to admit that it's the reason I always balance my crossdressing at work with "female" things like jewelry and makeup, while when I crossdress at home or in public places where nobody knows me, I don't feel the need to do that. All this time I just thought I was feeling androgynous, but I realize now I was probably just hiding.

    Okay, I think I need to lie down now.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  24. #24
    boi - gurl - whatever... Ms. Donna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex
    All this time I just thought I was feeling androgynous, but I realize now I was probably just hiding.
    "probably just hiding"... Maybe not.

    Keep in mind that everyone acts differently in different social settings (not just us T* folk. ) - expecially at work. It's different than being out with friends and such.

    Also, think about how you felt at work dressed androgynously. Do you feel uncomfortable? Like you're compromising some part of yourself?

    If the answer is 'no', than there is no reason to feel compelled to do 'more'. I told you the best advice my friend Laura gave me,
    "Just because your transgendered doesn't mean you have to do anything."

    Believe me, I can appreciate the overwhelming feeling of needing to do more. Remember - everything in moderation.

    Love & Stuff,
    Donna
    Just your average transgender non-op transsexual
    crossdressing genderqueer transgenderist geek.


    [SIZE="1"]The obligatory blog: http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/[/SIZE]

  25. #25
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex
    CaptLex, I do stuff like that too.
    At work, I don't make an effort to look more feminine, but I seem to be changing the pitch of my voice or whatever, and the way that I talk, to sound more feminine. It's really annoying actually. Especially seeing as that's now the norm, so it'll seem weird if I talk normally (which is usually in a pretty male sorta way.)
    But yeah, I know what you mean.
    Thanks, Lex. I've done that voice thing too, now that you mention it. I have no idea why. It seems to me it's more of an effort to effect a higher-pitched voice for me, than a lower-pitched voice, and yet it happens a lot of the time - and it usually takes me by surprise when I do it. Crazy, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Donna
    Also, think about how you felt at work dressed androgynously. Do you feel uncomfortable? Like you're compromising some part of yourself? If the answer is 'no', than there is no reason to feel compelled to do 'more'.

    I told you the best advice my friend Laura gave me,
    "Just because your transgendered doesn't mean you have to do anything."
    Donna, I believe I see your point, and I've been thinking about it. I've never thought I ever did anything (not even regarding my crossdressing) because I felt I had to. But I think that sometimes when I add certain female elements to my appearance I may be doing it for the wrong reasons - and not being true to myself. Do I feel like I'm compromising some part of myself? Yeah, sometimes.

    So, I'm trying a little experiment. For the next two weeks I will consciously and deliberately not use anything female - no makeup, no jewelry, no feminine hairstyle, etc. I think that should be enough time for me to determine my reasons for doing it. If I feel that I missed any part of that for myself (regardless of anyone else's comments or opinion), then I'll know that it really is a part of me. If, however, I find that I didn't miss wearing it at all, then I'll know I was probably doing it for the wrong reasons.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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