CD vs TG? (Non-TS responses only please)

[Zooey]

Hi all - I'm TS, but I have a question for all of you.

On this forum, everybody who is not a GG is considered "transgender" (TG). I have noticed that some of you identify specifically and explicitly as 'CD, not TG". Similarly, some of you identify as "TG, not just a CD".

What I'd like to know is... Why? What difference(s) are you trying to communicate when you do that?

[docrobbysherry]

Technically, all CD's fall under the TG umbrella, Zooey. Yet, I don't feel like I'm TG.

I didn't begin dressing until late in life. And, when I did begin 18 years ago, I wanted real breasts and fantasized about SRS, etc. Over the years, all those thots and desires vanished.

After coming here and also going out and meeting other dressers in person, I've come to believe I don't have a "female side". Feeling female and a sense of a female side seems to be a common thread among dressers all along the TG spectrum. That is why I don't think of myself as TG. Simply a CD.

While I get excited and turned on by wearing womens things, I don't think of Sherry as part of me. More like a third person whom I portray. Maybe like an actor doing a character?

[Teresa]

Zooey,
OK back to labels again, crossdresser/transvestite wears clothes of the opposite sex, no sexual content in the explanation , maybe applies to members who see it as a hobby.
I now use TG , my CDing has a sexual content, my male/female mindset are intertwined with my sexual needs.

OK it's like a layer cake , the top layer is CD the layers beneath depending how deep they go may take you to transition.
You didn't fully equate to me making a gender sheet but in doing it and thinking the various states of CDing through helped me enormously to find myself, I recently spoke to my counsellor and she has used the idea with another client with good results.

[Dana44]

I think if you have gone deeper than CD like trans type of sexual activity. We had a large discussion on this topic. TG was the term many used for themselves. Gender dysphoria and other factors perhaps figure in this. But I think TG was the term for all of us a CD falls under that term and some of us are tween or between TG and TS.

[Katey888]

This'll be fun...

I think part of the issue is the WPATH definition referred to in what we see as the declared forum standard, and what TG has become in the media. To demonstrate, here's the forum WPATH definition:

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Compare that with the current Wiki definition:

Transgender people experience a mismatch between their gender identity or gender expression and their assigned sex. Transgender is also an umbrella term because, in addition to including trans men and trans women whose binary gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (and who are sometimes specifically termed transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition), it may include genderqueer people (whose identities are not exclusively masculine or feminine, but may, for example, be bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender). Other definitions include third-gender people as transgender or conceptualize transgender people as a third gender, and infrequently the term is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers.

Therein lies the problem...

Personally, I'm happy to fit under the TG umbrella (I like TG-lite ), as I think anyone should who adopts a public expression of a gender identity (wholly or partially) that transcends the culturally accepted norm for gender expression (ie. how you dress, look, appear and sometimes behave). Unless you are a female impersonator, DQ, actor (maybe masker?), or someone doing this for other commercial purposes, for me you fit the definition.

If you stay at home, do not present these signs overtly in public (underdress) or dress purely for utilitarian or sexual purposes - then the jury's out... might be or might not be...

And there are shades of grey everywhere...

Katey x

[AllieSF]

I believe in the TG umbrella term and am therefore a CD in the TG spectrum. I am also as a good friends likes to tease me a CD+++, which is actually pretty accurate since I am almost done with electrolysis, have pierced ears, have clear polish on my nails always and more importantly, am starting to wonder what is next. As I just wrote in another new thread, I am happy and do not want to lose that happiness unnecessarily.

What I am trying to communicate is that I am me and right now by the umbrella definition, I am as stated above, a CD under the TG umbrella. I do occasionally say that I am TG in some conversations with strangers as I think that term sounds more serious as a word and maybe how others may interpret it compared to CD than if I just said I was a crossdresser. Maybe I am trying to help them think better about the whole concept of gender variance in presentation, as well as, in who we are.

[Teresa]

Katey,
It might be interesting if the general public were asked to describe the differences !
I guess we're members of Crossdressers.com and that's what the public will equate to .


Allie,
Just saying doesn't always put the message across, many think of a guy in a badly fitting dress with badly applied lipstick and staggering about in heels.
I find my pictures put the message across loud and clear, this guy isn't playing around he's working at something deeper that affects his life .

[Julogden]

"Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth."

That makes the most sense to me, and that's what I have in mind when I use the word "transgender". I really don't get why some people object to being lumped in under the transgender umbrella.

[Nadine Spirit]

I believe in TG as being an umbrella term that covers us all. Most of my life I spend presenting in some form of gender non-conforming manner and occasionally I fully dress as a woman. Thus I consider myself as TG who is gender non-conforming and sometimes a CD.

[Zooey]

Hi folks... Just to clarify, I'm not specifically asking whether you believe in "transgender" as an umbrella term or not. It currently is one, and in this forum (and beyond) you certainly full under that umbrella.

I'm specifically interested to know why the people who specifically choose one word over the other do so, and especially people who specifically say things like "I'm TG not a CD" or "I'm a CD, definitely not TG". Put another way, some folks are not using it as an umbrella term, and for them it means something else. In some cases, they use it both ways. I'm trying to understand what differences people are trying to communicate when they choose their words that way.

It's interesting that some folks have listed "sexual involvement" as a reason to use the word "transgender" rather than "crossdresser". That surprises me.

[Julia Welch]

I'm a straight CD ... not TG or gay... I just love the feeling wearing feminine clothing gives me.

[sometimes_miss]

Actually, I'm not really sure where I fit. I do crossdress, that's a definite. I do feel like I'm supposed to be a girl, but don't have any female feelings and innate behaviors, don't naturally communicate as women do, don't experience the world as women do. I'm into things; people, not so much, and don't define myself or my life by the people in it. I can and have gone decades between contact with friends, and feel nothing unusual about that. So to me, transgender means I feel some things which aren't typically male, but not all things typically female. I'm somewhere in the middle. Sexually, I feel like I'm supposed to behave as a female does, but without the 'correct' parts, have to do something else, all the while imagining that I'm doing the former. It becomes a whole lot of half this, and half that. Then you have to take into account that I'm attracted to females, and feel males to be repulsive. I know the difference between sexual preference and sexual identification, but what I am doesn't fit with what society feels I should be. Does that help? Or make it more confusing?

Edit. One problem we currently have, is that if we use the term transgendered, the general public assumes that to mean transsexual. Which makes it even more difficult to explain what any one of us is. The label to the world at large is still unclear, not because what any of us have done, but mostly because the media hasn't bothered to educate the public, because all they're concerned with is making headlines so people will watch.

[Meghan4now]

Ogers are like onions.
Stinky and make you want to cry?
No no no. Ogers have layers, they have layers!
CDS are Ogers? Onions crossdress?
That's not what I m saying at all, now pay attention! They have layers.
Oh, I get it, under the coat is a dress and under the dress is a corset, and under the corset is some panty hose and ....
STOP IT! That's not what I mean. CDS are complicated.

Round and round we go. Some CDS don't feel like they belong to the TG spectrum because they don't envision them selves as females not that complicated. And BTW, sexual reasons often ARE involved with "simple" CDing. In fact that is one reason CD is a preferable term to TV, for some people. Historically, the TV term was often linked with the prefix fetishtic.

[Zooey]

I'm a straight CD ... not TG or gay... I just love the feeling wearing feminine clothing gives me.

Can you elaborate on why you're specifically not TG? What would that mean to you?

[Claire Cook]

Hi Zooey,

Here again I think we find that one size does not necessarily fit all (heck, there are some size 12's I can't get into and some that are way too big ). We've already seen that some of us don't identify much, if at all, with the female gender and there are the rest of us who are everywhere in between. I always thought that TG included CD, but Katey's point about the Wikipedia definition makes that uncertain, and makes TG sound more like TS. (I wonder who wrote that, and how much Wiki considered or edited it.) Maybe it's a question of the degree of female identification? I dunno. I crossdress. I present as female. Most of the time I present as male. I am transgendered and think I have fairly strong female elements in my makeup, but like most of us here am not considering transitioning.

Then there is Katey's "TG-lite" (I like that!). Maybe that includes many (or all?) of us??

[Jenniferathome]

I consider TG to have some component of gender confusion or gender flexibility or more simply, not a black and white definition of gender. I am male. I am also a cross dresser. I never think I am female. I don't want to be female, but for some crazy reason, I like to present as a woman from time to time. Even when I am in full girl mode, I am the guy that I always have been. No confusion, no questions, no what-ifs.

[ReluctantDebutant]

To refer to myself as transgender gives the impression that I am questioning my gender or that I believe my gender is in some flux. This isn't true at all. I was born male and I quite happily identify as male. The fact that some definition place cross-dressing under the TG umbrella reminds me the ancients who thought whales and dolphins as fish simply because they are creatures that swim in the sea. I don't find it offensive but I find it highly inaccurate.

[TaraGrace]

I just chose to use CD because it (a) seemed logical with this site being called CrossDressers.com, and (b) I just couldn't work out the lingo at start and maybe a tiny little bit of (c) associating TG with TS..

Now add sprinkels as I'm bi-sexual and thus potentially sexually attracted to f/m/tv/tg/ts/cd/kgb/fbi/cia/ibm.... etc. and secondly like human interaction with almost anyone (also all named and unnamed abreviations) it simply is still so confusing for me, that I just came back to (a) this site is called CrossDressers.. so I think I'll stick with CD.

[S. Lisa Smith]

I am a straight male who loves to present as the woman I would have been had I been born a woman. I love being one of the girls with GGs when I am dressed. However, at a party not dressed, I talk with the women as much or slightly more than the men. I don't want to be a woman full time. I consider myself TG and a crossdresser. i love the term TG lite and feel like it may be the best descriptor for me.

[sara.rafaela]

I am a crossdresser. I do not want to be a woman. I do not particularly feel like a woman or my real self when dressed. I really love the female form and women's fashions. I think that is where it is for me. I enjoy dressing and the whole effort of creating the illusion is like a real life art project for me.

[Curiosity666]

I used to use the CD label because I was terrified of the possibility that I may not be a cis male. Nowadays I have gotten over the fear and shame of the possibility of being any anything under the trans umbrella. Honestly I don't really know the best way to identify, but I am going to explore my gender more and more and just do what comes naturally. That may involve deciding I'm happy just the way I am, or even full blown transition. I guess I used to CD label as a form of denial.

[JeanTG]

I consider TG to have some component of gender confusion or gender flexibility or more simply, not a black and white definition of gender.

That's always been my view of TG and I think that's the "label" that fits me, assuming one can stick a label on a fluid! I've had much gender confusion all my life probably mostly induced by my mother's unhealthy obsession with wanting a girl instead of the boy that she ended up with (and couldn't have any more kids). I became conscious of it when I was a child, alternately rebelled strongly against it or gave into over my life, and now I am just admitting it's part of what I am, and trying to learn to roll with it. There's no sexual component to my dressing, in fact it takes the edge off what's left of my male libido, calms and soothes me. My "normal" includes expressing a feminine side. I express that feminine side by dressing when I can, through gestures and how I relate to women in general, when I can't. Whether I take this beyond dressing to HRT and some level of surgery (orchiectomy being the first logical step), remains to be seen. I think if I had a cooperative wife, I would, but wouldn't risk an otherwise good marriage for it (it isn't all about me) and I'm not sure she could wrap her head around it so I don't want to push the envelope. In terms of relating to men, I have absolutely NO desire to have relations with men: been there, done that, 30+ years ago and found zero degree of arousal from being with men. So in a social context I try to relate to men strictly as man-to-man, though my eyes roll over when men start to talk to me about pro sports, a subject I cannot stand. No wannabe jock I... In general, in parties, gatherings, etc., I try and avoid the men and hang with the women, where I feel more comfortable. Once I was with a bunch of friends in the garage of one of them who had invited us all to dinner. He was showing us his man-cave type project, I got quickly bored, and went up and joined the wives (mine wasn't there as she was working) and much preferred chatting with them and they were so kind and welcoming to me, as if I were one of them.

I'm not 100% male, and I'm not 100% female either. It varies somewhere around neutral, sometimes a bit more male, sometimes a bit more female. At the moment, I'm on the female side, mentally (which is where, when it comes down to it, gender resides, between the ears). For a few months last year I was fairly stable mostly on the male side. It never swings to extremes, perhaps 60/40 to 40/60.

So I don't CD to get off. I CD to express, and explore, the feminine side of my gender reality. I feel most myself when dressed, but haven't dared go out in public as I am very far from passing (but I'm slowly working on it).

I think someone strictly defining as a CD is either a fetishistic transvestite (to use the old term) or simply someone who likes to dress the other gender for reasons other than gender identity: feel of the clothes, aesthetics, whatever, all reasons are valid. And someone identifying TS is a TG who has clearly identified with a gender identity that is at or almost at the other end of the spectrum from their birth gender, is undergoing transition, is preparing to, or is trying to create the conditions in his/her life that would make transition possible.

I hope this all makes sense... I generally dislike labeling, as it tends to be judgmental and used to ostracize and hurt.

[mykell]

hi zooey,
i refer to myself as transgender, did it before bruce became caitlyn and before i ventured out of the house at my ripe old age,
when i first came here i would say that i was just a crossdresser, (Still have spell check for this word) before i read and learned more about the whole spectrum,
i now attend a support group which is all inclusive, friends, family, MtF, FtM, transsexuals male and female....when you look folks in the eye to help or receive support you see how petty we become sometimes here, pitting one type or "tier" against the other....

i just did a failed anti thread about this, and a rant in the tell dont tell thread, since I've been here we always have these threads with commonality “tell don't tell” , “are you gay if you want a man while dressed”, “ is it sexual”, “you don't do enough for the community”, “im just a crossdresser”, “your not trans enough”, "you dont crossdress right"…….I was trying to write the anti-version of these types of threads, after reading them i sometimes questions my “self” and feel im in some kind of denial about what or who or how, even though i accept that i am transgender and been here for a decent amount of time, so i guess for me its because its an all inclusive "definition" and we need to be here for each other even if we all dont feel this way....

when you put on female clothes you are not conforming to a male image, gender nonconforming...

[GeorgeA]

Hi Zooey,

I've been a member of this forum for about 6-7 years. By reading thousands of posts I realise that I am not like the majority of posters here. I have written about me in many other posts but let me put it in a nutshell:

I am here because I like to wear skirts & lingerie. That makes me a crossdresser, I guess.

I am a man, strictly heterosexual.

I do not want to be a woman or even to look like one.

I am most comfortable in a skirt, hate trousers and wear them only when necessary.

Somewhere, sometime our society decreed that trousers are for men, skirts for women.

Look around you: There are millions of women wearing trousers. Are they considered crossdressers? No, because they do not disguise their sex, they just look like women in trousers.

I am also like that: I wear skirts but I do not disguise my sex. I am just a man in a skirt. Compare with the previous line (above).

For years, reading posts here, I have wondered: Am I really a crossdresser or not? I am so different from those talking about make-up, jewellery, wigs, women's shoes & boots, "passing", pink fog, etc. All those items I mentioned hold no interest for me.

Last month our local crossdressing group had a Christmas dinner, which I attended in drab and was very well received by all, who really looked like women, and I could have been mislead if I didn't who they are. Next month we had a meeting in a private room of a pub, and this time I was in a skirt, and though I have facial hair was accepted by all again.
One outcome of these meetings was my confirmation of my preference of looking like a man. I would not want to look like them, attractive & fabulous as the are. I want to remain my old male self. In February I will be going again as these are monthly affairs.

Am I a crossdresser? Perhaps, but not a transgender, there is nothing "trans" about my gender.

I just want to state that I am wholly supportive of ALL members here, regardless of which part of the spectrum they inhabit and whatever they may call themselves.

I hope this helps you, Zooey.

[AllieBellema]

I have never had those feelings of "being in the wrong body" or felt like I should have been a woman or anything... however, I do enjoy dressing up as a woman. Do I go out and look perfect... never! I try my best to look as good as possible, but I don't go all out to make myself more woman like. Yeah, I don't mind being treated like a woman if I happen to be in a public setting with one of my dresses, but at the same time I know I'm a guy underneath and I'm ok with that.

So mainly I dress up for the fun of wearing some of the fun dresses that women tend to wear. Probably also explains why I have mostly themed outfits and no "everyday" outfit in my closet!