Conversation with a rude person - two days of being very sad

[LeaP]

Every once in a while I wonder why I keep coming here. Your post is a strong reminder. Thank you for sharing the experience, brutal as it was.

[Pat]

I often think of incidents like this as "Don Quixote" moments. In the musical, the brigands hold a mirror up to DQ to show him he's a pathetic old man and he sees what they see and is, for a time, broken by it. (But he recovers.) I think the issue is she put the mirror up and forced you to see her vision -- not what's there; not what's true, just her dark vision. And the demons we all carry inside who want to think the worst of us are telling you it must be true. I'm so sorry you're going through this. To switch literary metaphors, I offer Saint Exupery's The Little Prince who tells us that "It is only with the heart that one sees truly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." The beauty you bring to life outshines any failure to meet a physical ideal. I've experienced that from you here in the forums and I think most of the other people on here have too. Don't let 'em grind you down.

[flatlander_48]

M:

There will always be people who attempt to elevate themselves by disparaging others. This is the nature of prejudice and it is unfortunate that it was visited upon you.

However, let us remember the positives here. You have dedicated you life to be part of an organization that protects your country and its inhabitants. Further, even as you work through personally difficult times, you have continued to do your job as always. To me, that speaks volumes about your priorities and the value you place on service. How can you not be an admirable person and worthy of of your position and uniform?

I am reminded of this passage from Marianne Williamson. While is holds true for all of us who transcend preconceived cultural boundaries, I think it is especially true in this situation.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people will not feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give others permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

To me, one particularly noteworthy part of that is: "We are all meant to shine..."

Anyway, as you read through the comments here, be reminded that we are all with you.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Marcelle, I'm sorry this happened. This woman is ignorant beyond words.

I saw your thread earlier and was at a loss to know what to say until a friend, whose son lives openly with his boyfriend, posted this on facebook:

"Should you ever find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, smallness or insecurities, remember things could be worse … you could be them."

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks very much for your kind comments and support . . . it means a lot to have this type of social support to discuss these things. Yesterday was a bit nerve wrecking as I felt out of sorts and since I would have to face that person again it was even harder. I went to the gym in the morning and did my usual workout and she was there. She never looked sideways at me but I could feel the tension. When I went to my cubicle she was in hers and we made brief eye contact and went about our respective days. Unfortunately, I could not let it go . . . those comments were hurtful. So I went to her cubicle and asked to talk to her with a neutral third party mediator (CAF policy for alternative dispute resolution). She agreed and the meeting is set up for today. Keeping my fingers crossed things maintain a civil semblance.

I feel a bit better today but still having a hard time looking at myself in the mirror albeit not as bad as yesterday . . . guess I am healing.

Cheers

Marcelle

[pamela7]

Hi Marcelle,

I feel for you, and feel you handled her well. Having been the target of attempts at manipulation/abuse/control I learned from self-defense against a master manipulator, and if anyone wants i can post a list of one-liner defensive reflections/deflections and some rules in conversations to avoid repeats of such things.

The first rule I have is to decline any comments about me or my work, so if someone comes along for a conversation, get in at the front you'll listen to her feelings she's having in relation to you, but you're refusing any comments on yourself. My responses to her might include: "whatever you think of me is your projection and i'm not interested, go see a counsellor", "how you feel about a transwoman is something you will have to learn to deal with in our modern society, remember there are transmen too, maybe you're leaning that way, and so angry because of unconscious denial?".

Even though the "ugly sister male aspect" will poke through, remember, our transitions do make us more beautiful, even of others do think we're ugly; that is their problem. People come in all shapes and sizes, and as long as your wife loves you then don't listen to someone who is not behaving lovingly to you. There are bad people in the world, feel empathy for how horrible it must be to be that person on the inside.

PS Always refuse any apology from such a person. After making an attack - which has followed them making themselves a victim of your dressing - they will need to relieve themselves by rescuing you/themselves through apology. Nothing works better than refusing them this release, in terms of making sure they don't do it again. (check out the "Karpman Triangle")

sending love

xxx Pamela

[Jennifer-GWN]

Marcelle... Slay the dragon!!!!

[flatlander_48]

Keeping my fingers crossed things maintain a civil semblance.

Doesn't make a lot of difference. If she doesn't, she will have shown here true colors in front of a witness. I wouldn't think that any military organization would keep someone that stupid on the payroll, but you never know. What we all have to remember is that in this situation the idea is reiterating the parameters of acceptable behavior, not about changing minds.

"Should you ever find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, smallness or insecurities, remember things could be worse … you could be them."

Amen.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

geeeze who put sand in her panties? My, my, so much anger. I am glad you really didn't respond. Someday, somewhere, someone will do that to her (maybe her superior officer and it will be on permanent record).

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Oh Marcelle I am sorry to hear that this bully was inflicting her vile opinion on you. The sad fact is that there are bad people in this world that take pleasure out of harming others and they do it on purpose to inflict pain. In my experience you will never change their mind and all you can normally do is try to ignore them and not let them know that their vile rhetoric has any effect on you. This may sound like giving in but I don't know any other way to reduce the bullying unless your organization has a method of dealing with the kind of subtle harassment that this woman is practicing. I hope that is the case. If her bigotry interferes in any way with getting the job done in the workplace then you may have a way to get back at her. Keep your nose clean in any interactions and let her damage her own reputation if possible.

To me this person is the lowest form of homo sapiens and the kind of person that would do bodily harm to you if the societal conditions were different and allowed it. We see societies around the world that abuse their own people on a regular basis just for being different in some way they don't approve of. You can't talk sense into a zealot stoning a man or woman for some small perceived infraction of their standard of normality. It is likely that you can't change this woman's mind with a reasoned discussion.

Not for a minute do I feel sorry for these kind of people and I have had the misfortune of dealing with the likes of several of them in my high school days long ago. The only way I ever found to deal with them was to understand how fundamentally depraved they are and to learn to ignore them and just to laugh at the absurdity of their hate and ignorance. I know it still hurts a lot but it reminds us that living life to the fullest is not easy and not for the faint of heart. The one thing you can do is summon the inner strength to hold your head high and be the person you want to be.

You have really given me inner strength with your story over the last year of so on the forum so I hope you can benefit from the support from the rest of us here. We thank you for posting and we share in your pain.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[Di]

Thinking about you and hope your meeting helps.
I was so upset reading what this ignorant , stupid ugly jerk said and did to you I wanted to jump in my car and drive up there and set her straight. ( yes I know. Would make things worse but my first reaction)
You are a beautiful, caring woman living your true life.... Please see this when looking in the mirror.
Sending strength.

[Marcelle]

Well, our meeting got put off for a day so it happened yesterday. As expected . . . didn't go well. She was confrontational/defensive from the beginning even though we both know this has no punitive ramifications and is just a venue to talk things through and come to some sort of resolve. This is one bitter woman and I quickly realized it is not just me she has a problem with, it is all things which go against the grain of her perfect Vanilla world. In her words the CAF is "too politically correct" these days to the detriment of all the "hardworking normal people". For those who are not Canadian or you have not seen it on the Canadian news, there was a story in the news about a Royal Canadian Navy same sex couple who made history when a sailor returning home from sea duty shared the classic "homecoming kiss" with his spouse. She went on a tirade about this and how she doesn't care what people do so long as she doesn't have to see it and nobody would make a big deal if it was a normal couple, it is just because they are gay it is getting all this attention. Seriously bitter.

I tried to explain to her that when she says things like she did it hurts because she is denigrating who I am. She maintains it is her opinion and she has the right to voice it. I told her she has the right to her opinion within reason and when she states so in the workplace it contravenes harassment policy. She took the "the CAF just being politically correct" stance again and then went on about how people use PTSD to milk the system and get what they want, get promoted ahead of her and whatnot. At this point I called it . . . there was nothing to be done. My final parting comment to her was "You may not like the person, you may not agree with who I am, you may not respect me but you will respect the Queen's commission. You can have your opinion but you will not voice it overtly at work and if you do, I will have you charged with harassment. Play within those confines and we won't have a problem"

Arrg . . . some folks are just lost causes. On a personal note, I am doing better and while I still have a bit of issue looking at myself in the mirror . . . it is getting better. Thanks for all your support.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yes! she is a lost cause.... there are steamrollers like her everywhere and all each of us can do is get out of the way and in your case you flagged her...

think of how frustrated she is right now being told her "opinion" is not allowed to be stated

I know that's only one part of it, but its an important part...good job!!!

as far as the mirror i hear you , welcome to womanhood!

[Suzanne F]

Marcelle
I am so proud of how you handled that meeting. She is so full of fear that the only way she knows how to deal with it is through anger. It is apparent that she is very unhappy. You on the other hand, are full of courage. Let's celebrate the woman you are and the person you are becoming!
Suzanne

[steftoday]

There are, unfortunately, some miserable examples of human beings out there.
Congratulations on how you handled the whole thing.

[Bria]

Marcelle, I am in complete agreement with your final statement to her. We can't control what other people think as long as they keep their thoughts to themselves. I am reminded of the old idea that my freedom of action ends at your nose.

You have taken the high road with this lady (?), it's time to feel good about yourself, you are beautiful to all who really know you!

Hugs, Bria

[Heidi Stevens]

I'm glad this episode is now squared with everyone, Marcelle. I've run into a lot of people like this woman in my area. They always are in the right, they always have THE answer to everything, they would kick you to the trash heap (or Cornwallis Island) if they had their way. Take a deep breath and carry on, Ma'am!

[sarahcsc]

Well done, Marcelle.

I'm glad you were able to set boundaries with her.

She is very bitter and she is already being punished simply by being bitter.

I hope you are feeling better.

Take care.
S

[flatlander_48]

My final parting comment to her was "You may not like the person, you may not agree with who I am, you may not respect me but you will respect the Queen's commission. You can have your opinion but you will not voice it overtly at work and if you do, I will have you charged with harassment. Play within those confines and we won't have a problem"

M:

Just as I said, this situation is about behaviors. It is the only thing that can be enforced. Further, if she ever leaves the military she will quickly find out that similar policies are in place in the private sector. No one wants to put up with her kind of B/S because it is a disruption and a major drain of time and energy. If I had to guess, I would say that her personality is the biggest impediment to her being promoted and nothing to do with anyone else. No one wants to be around an energy sink. It costs too much...

DeeAnn

[VanTG]

I totally hear what you said in that post and have to wonder why she would say those things to you? Like others have said it probably points to an issue she is having and afraid to take a leap. She goes out of her way to make others feel terrible because she is going through emotional hell for some reason.

Just a thought but maybe you could grab a brochure for a counselling support line and drop it off at her desk with a note, saying "putting other people down won't fix your problems"!

Marcelle, you are who you are. The support you have provided others within this form is priceless. The courage you have shown is also priceless. You are a role model to a lot of people.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Such cruelty- all the hallmarks of a narrow-minded fool.

The simple fact is that for every Giselle Bundchen there are 100 girls who wish they were more attractive- you're experiencing what most girls feel from time to time. There are even plenty of girls who you and I might consider pretty, who loathe the way they look; who self-harm; who destroy their health with eating disorders, who no matter what others tell them, will continue to hate themselves.

But this is particularly hard for you because the blows she landed, again and again, were calculated to inflict maximum damage, and she clearly has lots of experience at being mean and nasty. She's good at it. She hit you where you're most vulnerable. I cringe to think of that smug, triumphant smirk on her face, but it's the same smirk worn by a high school cheerleader who has just delivered a put down to a plainer girl. Small comfort, I know.

You could also consider that to have got such a string of abuse from her, you may have stirred up some deep feelings about her own body image.

Hugs and best wishes for a bright future,

Nikki

[Nicole Erin]

it would be easy to say "don't let it bother you" but anytime we have bad personal interactions, it wears on us. Just part of the human condition. You hurt but then come out stronger.

...I wouldn't think that any military organization would keep someone that stupid on the payroll, but you never know.

The logistics are like this -
If the Canadian military is anything like the U.S. military - getting kicked out (called "chaptered out") before your time is done is a lengthy complicated process and one size doesn't fit all. One also cannot just quit on a whim the way you can a civilian job. So she is stuck there and they are stuck with her at least tile her obligation is fulfilled.

So about this woman that Marcelle dealt with -
If this woman has problems with anything LGBT and probably other communities and sub-cultures, who cares what she thinks? She should be focusing on living her own life rather than trying to tell others how to live. We all see things we do not agree with but there isn't anything anyone can really do other than blab their mouths (which may have consequences depending on who you blab to)

More important for Marcelle -
I assume the vast majority of your fellow workers, family, strangers, and acquaintances have no problem with who you are. So why do those who don't approve even matter? People who have a problem with TG are often insecure in their own gender. Male and female are biological and do not change but "gender roles" like man or woman are social and honestly, an act. The problem with insecurity in people comes because they may not feel "man enough" or "woman enough". They feel like they are in competition with other "men" or "women". So for that woman you are dealing with, something happened or IS happening in her life where she doesn't feel "woman enough".

[flatlander_48]

The logistics are like this -
If the Canadian military is anything like the U.S. military - getting kicked out (called "chaptered out") before your time is done is a lengthy complicated process and one size doesn't fit all. One also cannot just quit on a whim the way you can a civilian job. So she is stuck there and they are stuck with her at least tile her obligation is fulfilled.

Yes, but if this sort of negative attention continues, her situation will become more and more untenable. And, it doesn't seem to be a mystery as to why she has not advanced. I would also wonder if she hasn't been bounced around through various assignments in order to prevent just what you mentioned.

Going back to the days when I supervised other engineers and technicians, one of the things that my employer emphasized was the elimination, or at least the minimization, of liability for the company. With the possibility of an harassment grievance, it can open the door for all sorts of negative perceptions about the organization and how it manages Diversity and Inclusion. And yes, the military is different in that there are many internal proceedings and hearings that can take place long before anything ever becomes public, if ever. But clearly, when higher levels become aware of a situation that looks like you cannot control your direct reports, it paints a bad picture.

Further, as I said, this situation can also exist in the private sector. If a company is trying to do right by its employees and is invested in doing what is socially responsible and appropriate, this behavior will not stand for long. Until she understands what she can and cannot do in terms of behavior, her career will continue to be stymied regardless of the organization.

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

yes! she is a lost cause.... there are steamrollers like her everywhere...

No, that should be "There are people who are so insecure in themselves that they cannot handle being around anyone who does not conform to their narrow-minded concept of correctness."

She's the one with the problem, and the great thing is that Marcelle isn't responsible for fixing it! She set the woman straight and now the bigot can just stew!

Marcelle's example will give me courage if I am confronted with a similar issue!

[flatlander_48]

Personally, I would just laugh because I KNOW that the woman is crazy. Actually, make that CRAZY!!!

DeeAnn