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Thread: Tolerance

  1. #1
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    Tolerance

    Over the last few months I have noticed a few comments that suggest that the writer does not think too much about the interests of certain people. So, for example, a slightly critical comment about those who just like to underdress, or about others who profess that as a cross dresser they feel that they are strongly drawn to gay men or to other cross dressers.

    Having been a member here for many years I am struck by the wide variety of what we would call cross dressing. This site is a very broad tent and within it are a great mix from transexuals to those who just like to wear panties and just about every variant and color in between.

    When more exposed to the gay male community, I was struck by many negative comments about cross dressers and I always thought that attitude to be hypocritical. After all we all have asked society for tolerance yet we can sometimes be intolerant of those whose idea of cross dressing is just not quite ours.

    Why do we tend to "atomize" like this into narrow cliques and tribes? I have always liked this site because of the wide range of interests in cross dressing that it represents. I like having GG's and transexuals here who share their challenges and journeys. Long may it stay that way.

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    Its been that way for some time Consuelo.
    Being part of the gay community I see the intolerance towards trans and Cd people quite frequently. Many gay people can't understand trans issues just like the straight people can't.
    When I try to explain myself to gay friends its like "you are so weird" "pick one gender or the other honey and go with it".
    I like the diversity here and there is a lot of it and thats good IMO.

  3. #3
    Gold Member Read only Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    My goal has been to try and show as much compassion to all, if they are different and something I don't understand then so be it. I too like it here and all those who have different ways of expressing this part of themselves

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Which is also why I've stayed here that long my friend.
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  5. #5
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    Have you seen John Oliver's spiel on tolerance? It's poignant and hilarious. Type in his name and transgender rights in YouTube. You won't be disappointed!
    Last edited by PrivateXDresser; 05-12-2016 at 01:31 PM.

  6. #6
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    C, very good thread! Yes, there are almost innumerable backgrounds that people have, and presents, and futures, just like the masses of humanity with all their individuals traits, differences, pains, and troubles, family hell, religious or non religious, different quirks and hangups. Sadly, a trait of human nature, is the "us and them" syndrome.

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    I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are, and some think there are crossdressing codes that should be followed, and some think there are age limits for wearing certain styles, and some put down those who want to crossdress in secret. Too bad a site that should be breeding commonality and support and understanding is unfortunately so derisive. As a crossdresser, I no longer feel a part of a "transgender" community mainly because of the ill will I see on this site. I am glad of the many recent advances made by the gay/lesbian/bi community and am happy to see greater understanding and acceptance of transsexual issues and challenges due to Caitlyn Jenner and media interest - but if anything, that has only made simple crossdressers more misunderstood and more distant. Guess what - crossdressers are really not going to benefit in any way by most of the issues and transgender rites that are constantly debated on this site. Crossdressers simply want acceptance, or maybe tolerance - especially by those they love and their friends. You can't legislate that but maybe it could be demonstrated more on this crossdressing site.

  8. #8
    Member Nashmau's Avatar
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    actually it is rather simple.

    Gay ppl do not have a struggle with there identy in itself. it is simply with whom do they want to have sex. The physical same or the opposite or both (Bi, Homo or Hetero), the all taker ( which is pan) and the nontaker (Asexual). But They still Idendify themselfs as one gender. Therefore they are basicly like me, we cant possibly understand what is going on or the whys. so no it is actually not hypocritical. Because LGB asked for tolerance about having Sex with whom they want and Ultimatly to have a lasting relationship with whom they want. The T on the other hand is a little bit more difficult and so incredibly complex and asks for a different kind of Tolerance namely to be or to present as they want or feel internally.

    So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.
    Last edited by Nashmau; 05-12-2016 at 02:36 PM.

  9. #9
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    Just when I thought I was out...

    Quote Originally Posted by heatherdress View Post
    I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are
    At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

    I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

    Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

    That's when I show up.

    You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

    Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.
    Last edited by Zooey; 05-12-2016 at 02:38 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Not being a seasoned member or blogger I must admit that I have noticed that some members have a narrow definition of what a crossdresser is or to be more precise dismissive of others who are on different level to them. Tolerance for all whom share on this site should be a minimum standard, acceptance a goal to aspire to. I am trying to learn and understand who I am like many others who reside here. When I first discovered this place I thought Wow and while lurking over the last Christmas decided to join, the feeling that even though I wasn't exactly on the same plain I could find a friend or two that I could chat with. (Was so happy to join, felt euphoric) I have noticed like you some of the bigotry that occurs here, yes I have made mistakes and can only hope to be excused for any offense that may have been felt. Some members have posted some demeaning comments and have been allowed to continue to post while some are edited.
    I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

  11. #11
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    In parts of the gay community, a great deal of importance is placed on machismo and being manly men, and some of them look down upon men who are not "manly". They either view feminine males as weak, or as an embarrassment to them in that they feel feminine men send the wrong message about being gay.

    That, and like straight cis people, they probably don't have much exposure to "trans people", beyond the images of drag queens (which are a small, visible part of gay culture.)

  12. #12
    Carole carhill2mn's Avatar
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    Sadly, people are people and many do not have much tolerance for anyone who is not just like they are. It seems strange to me, also, that some people here are not very understanding of others.
    Hugs, Carole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Just when I thought I was out...



    At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

    I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

    Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

    That's when I show up.

    You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

    Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.
    You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

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    One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

    I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

    When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.

  15. #15
    Member rachelatshop's Avatar
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    Hi Ladies, Yes some times the comments here are not very tolerant, and they are some times hurtful. I have one friend who posted something here, and the last thing I heard from that person was that she couldn't believe that some one from this community could be so hurtful. She had just started to come out and now she has with drawn and I can't even get in touch with her. I don't know who you are but you should be ashamed of yourself. I must admit that I have given my opinion of what some members of this community have posted because I feel that it doesn't represent what cross dressing means to me, but I always try not to be hurtful in my post. I do think that we need to be aware that when we are interacting with the outside community as a cross dressed person (girl / woman) the outside communities image of us reflects on all cross dressers. Thank you all for a great community over all.
    Last edited by rachelatshop; 05-12-2016 at 10:29 PM.

  16. #16
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    Well said, heatherdress!

  17. #17
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzanne View Post
    One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

    I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

    When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.
    Yes, we do live in a patriarchal society, but that is not the reason for women now being able to be "more masculine" as you put it. It is/was the feminine movement which fought for women to be able to be equal participants in society, and not be restrained to being barefoot in the kitchen. The patriarchal society of the past expected women to be prim and proper. Now, you are saying that the patriarchal society is pushing women toward masculinity. It isn't. And IMO, much of what women are now doing is not considered masculine to me anyway. Being equal, doing the same work as any male does not make a woman more masculine. Because they now wear pants, is that really "more masculine" or because they participate in competitive athletics? That just allows them equality.

    So, now there are women MMA fighters. yet, ever since the sport was invented, there have been male figure skaters.... If anything, the only thing this patriarchal society is doing is restraining men to be only masculine. Some women will feel like a man should be this, or not do that, but more women are not as judgmental about what a man does, so long as he is contributing rather than just consuming in society.

    As for tolerance among the different subtypes of people, gay, trans etc etc. We are still 1st and foremost, humans. It is a human trait that crosses every sub type, fairly equally too. And while it sounds good, that gay people should expect to be more understanding of others, or trans people, no group of people really is anymore understanding or tolerant of other sub groups of people. I don't think we should hold any one group to a higher standard than another either. Oh, your gay so you should be more tolerating of others? or trans to gay people, or ethnic groups, inter racial couples, etc etc.... Is that what male privilege has come down to, the last group allowed to be judgmental? No one should hold any ability to be more or less so. Being judgmental, or intolerant of those who are not the same is a human failing, and one that we recognize and work toward bettering ourselves, all of us, equally.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by heatherdress View Post
    You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.
    I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

    When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

    I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

    When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

    Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

    Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.
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  19. #19
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Zooey, for what it is worth, many women are equally guilty of doing exactly the same to men. It is said so often, oh, you are just a man, no compassion, it's just a stupid man thing. I could go on and on and on. Social media memes go both ways a lot.

    Another thing, many CDers are striving to be more feminine. Even though they may choose not to go down the path you did, that they are striving to be more feminine should not be discounted. Pointing out how the femininity they see or act on is superficial, you would be correct a lot. Helping CDers to be more understanding that the femininity they seek goes deeper than the superficiality they see would be a better idea than simply bashing them over the head because that is all they see or act on.

    Many CDers get at best a lukewarm reception when they visit the TS section. They might not know exactly where they are on the spectrum. Chastising them for not being 100% female internally doesn't help them a bit. There are numerous members who are now identifying as TS and are planning to or are in the process of transitioning. At one time though, they were once "just a CDer" and likely espoused many of the things you find offensive and hurtful. It is almost like someone who was A CDer but were in a process of discovery and found their way to the TS forums, but then once they get there, they put a stronger lock on the gate. That is not really fair... How is it fair that someone who was among those who were once just a CDer and was guilty of that which is hurtful to you is ok now, but others who are in the same process today should be shooed away and go back to panty fantasy land. This TG stuff is confusing and scary as all heck to most of us, and it doesn't help when we start putting up walls between us. We all have plenty of walls to deal with with the cis gender world, we don't need the walls inside our own tent, just because we are not all on the exact same spot in the tent.
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  20. #20
    Aspiring Member LelaK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrivateXDresser View Post
    Well said, heatherdress!
    But everything can be said better. It just takes too long sometimes to think how.
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  21. #21
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    Zooie - Again it is pretty arrogant to generalize and condemn crossdressers for being demeaning and then be demeaning to those you have accused. Your generalizations about crossdressers are totally unsupported by the majority of comments made on this site. Most crossdressers on this site overwhelmingly admire, love, respect their spouses and SOs. Most crossdressers show total respect and admiration for women in general. You are not only wrong in your assertions, you do not practice what you seem to condemn crossdressers of doing.
    Last edited by heatherdress; 05-13-2016 at 12:38 AM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Amanda M's Avatar
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    Heatherdress - with you 100%
    If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Hell on Heels's Avatar
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    Hell-o Consuelo,
    Sure there are a few incidents where a member may discount
    another's version of CDing, but for the most part... any criticism is
    generally made in a supportive manner.
    Now as far as opinions go...
    We've all heard they are as common as @$$holes, everyone has one.
    It's my opinion that it's usually an @$$hole that is adamantly expressing their
    opinion (yes, I did just make an @$$ of myself! I'm OK with that!)
    Anyway...CDing (for me) is not a mockery of women, it's more an admiration.
    If I get it wrong? Well...shove that rules book under my nose (again) and do your best
    to make me follow the rules!
    Much Love,
    Kristyn
    I smile because you are my friend, and
    I laugh because there is nothing you can do about it!!!

  24. #24
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    People do tend to band with those who are similar, the flip side of which is unfortunately a turning away from those who are not similar to oneself. I think we do have a responsibility to try and be tolerant of others who are marginalized for various reasons, particularly those in the LGBTQ community. If one group throws their fellow travellers under the bus ("we're not like them") in order to look respectable and court social approval, that's nothing more than climbing on the backs of others to get ahead. We are all, in different ways, struggling with the gender binary. Misogyny is another facet of that same struggle, and so we also have a responsibility to elevate women at the same time and avoid comments that demean and stereotype women.

  25. #25
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    I have to agree with gendermutt of the TS section of this forum.
    It was not long after I joined here I asked a question in the TS section and I was blasted by two TS women and they were brutal.
    It was years before I ever read anymore in that section.
    I read that section but am really afraid of posting anything in there so I keep my mouth shut.
    Zooey I'm guessing your life hasn't been easy but you do come off as being bitter and angry about something.
    A TG's or CD's life isn't easy either and while they do not know how a woman truly feels they don't need to be shamed for making mistakes. We all make mistakes.

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