How do you prove you're transgender?

[Pat]

Here's an interesting wrinkle... I run my own little company and I have a potential client who wants to get credit for dealing with an LGBT-owned business. To make that happen, I have to register with the LGBT Chamber of Commerce. They, in turn, want me to prove I'm LGBT (makes sense.) But I've never had to prove it before. They have lists of acceptable documentation like transition letters from a surgeon, court orders for modifying your birth certificate and stuff like that, but I'm not transsexual so I don't have those docs and never will (OK, taking a lesson from others on here, maybe I should never say never. ) I could try and enter on the bisexual track, but that largely focusses on same-sex marriage or partnerships. They're working with me and it will eventually get straightened out, so I don't want to focus on my particular case, but...

I know a largish number of our members focus all their attention on how to deny they're transgender, but have you ever thought about what would happen if you had to prove it?

More than ever, I wish I could get a "T" on my driver's license.

[Dana44]

Jennie, that is a wrinkle. Well the T part should be easy. Go to the LGBT chamber for a meeting in dress. That should show it. Just like the fact that you would have to show a Bi partnership. And heck, while their at it, perhaps they could give you a T document. Yeah, we are T but don't quite fit yet.

[Kate Simmons]

Interesting situation. What happens if the potential client can't get credit for dealing with you? No business with them?

[Lorileah]

Does the "proof" have to be validated? You can always write a letter explaining that you crossdress and that under the definition of Transgender (T) CD's are included. Maybe you can send a copy of your avatar just for punch? I would think that you having to prove TG would be like a gay person proving they were gay when they aren't paired or married...your word

[Shelly Preston]

Hi Jennie
You may have to educate them that being transgender is not the same as transexual

The proof they are asking for only really becomes necessary during the transition process.

dictionary says
adjective, Also, transgendered
1.
noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;
transgender rights.

Wikipedia extract

Transgender people experience a mismatch between their gender identity or gender expression and their assigned sex.[1][2][3] Transgender is also an umbrella term because, in addition to including trans men and trans women whose binary gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (and who are sometimes specifically termed transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition), it may include genderqueer people (whose identities are not exclusively masculine or feminine, but may, for example, be bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender)


Nowhere does it say you have to prove being a transgender person.

You may be able to get statements from those friends you have that have known Jennie a long time. Which you would most likely have to do if you were changing your name.

[docrobbysherry]

Or, maybe u can get a letter from them saying you're NOT trans!? Just in case u ever need it-----

[Tracii G]

I can see registering with the LGBT as a (friendly) company but why do you need to be TG to do so?

[mykell]

jennie if you need a reference just let me know, ill send them a PDF confirming your "T" ASAP....

[5150 Girl]

What about a letter from a counselor or psychiatrist, or some such?

[pamela7]

another damned hoop; your word should be enough, like if I said my business were trans-friendly by virtue of me being trans ... the world has gone nuts with red tape and jobsworths

[Pat]

Thanks for the responses thus far.

In Massachusetts there are brownie points for doing business with LGBT-owned businesses and plus-points if they are specifically transgender. I don't know what they get for collecting these valuable points, maybe free coffee, but since there is apparently some benefit it makes sense that you have to certify objectively that you qualify -- I don't object to that.

Shelly was spot-on. It looks like they will accept affidavits from three people who know me as satisfactory.

I was just amused because I've never had a reason to be challenged on this before and it started me thinking what would it be like if one of the "coming out" stories we see so often went like, "I told my wife I was a crossdresser and she said 'BS! Prove it!'" Simply putting on a dress wouldn't cut it, since guys are guys and will do anything to win an argument....

[nvlady]

How do they ask a guy to prove he is gay, tell George to join him in the men's room?

[flatlander_48]

another damned hoop; your word should be enough, like if I said my business were trans-friendly by virtue of me being trans ... the world has gone nuts with red tape and jobsworths

The idea is to encourage businesses to broaden out their supply chain. Let to your own devices, you might not choose an LGBT, minority or woman-owned firm. There are incentives (perhaps tax-based) to go beyond:

"If you do what you always did,
You'll get what you always got."

Otherwise people my never go beyond companies that look like they do.

DeeAnn

[Robin414]

Interesting thread Jennie. I work at it all the time although not with documents, just rock the look...swish! 😉

[Andrea2000]

It's good that you got that resolved, yet I don't see how such a question could be easily proved at any rate. I can actually think of a good example of this on a different subject, albeit with the same dilemma, but I can't say it here as it violates the rules.

[trisha kobichenko]

Hmmm, begs a question...it a appears from my experience that to acquire Women's Business Enterprise status doesn't require a physical or psychological evaluation...maybe it should?

[PaulaQ]

I think it is deplorable that this gay group *cough* excuse me, LGBT organization, would focus on same sex relationships to "prove" you belong there. So a bisexual person in a relationship with someone of a different gender wouldn't cut it? And transgender people need surgery letters? Seriously? I'm willing to bet that if a person sounded like a fem gay dude on the phone, or looked like a butch lesbian, they'd get right in, no further documentation required. I wouldn't try the "bi" card. My guess is that with people like these, *no* amount of proof will ever be enough to convince them that bisexuality exists, much less that a person is bisexual. ("You are either gay or straight!")

I understand the business reasons for being part of this group, but seriously, these folks sound like they SUCK. These attitudes, by the way, are really common in some gay and lesbian groups, I am sad to say. This is just terrible.

but I'm not transsexual so I don't have those docs and never will (OK, taking a lesson from others on here, maybe I should never say never. )

Now you are starting to get the picture! Just kidding! (Or am I?)

[Krisi]

If this organization wants you to prove that you are "transgender", why don't you ask them what sort of proof they want?

[Sarah Doepner]

I'm not sure how you will do this, other than find family, friends or others who know you to be trans to write the letters. But it got me thinking of how I'd prove it if I were challenged and I think I have enough to work with. They could ask my kids, and their spouses or my boarder. I'd could dig back in the photo archives of my trips out in Las Vegas that would be posted on the DLV site going back several years. I could get my name from Tri-Ess where I've been a member for many years or a letter from my therapist who should be able to convince them. If all that failed, I guess I'd just start going to their meetings as Sarah.

Actually, it's making me wonder why more people don't know by now.

[NicoleScott]

Krisi nailed it. Sometimes the best ideas are the simplest. While you're asking what sort of proof they want, ask them to define transgender. That should be fun.

[ReineD]

How is your client getting credit for dealing with a LGBT business? Is your client a public contractor?

I know that the Governor of MA has recently expanded the Supplier Diversity Program to add Veterans, LGBT, and Disability-Owned business enterprises (to the existing Minority and Women business enterprises), for competition in the state's multi-billion dollar procurement network. Any contractor submitting a bid that costs more than $150,000 must now commit to spending a small percentage of the money on diverse subcontractors or suppliers. So if you can qualify, your business stands to improve. But, you can still be a subcontractor even if you are not a racial minority, woman, veteran, disabled, or LGBT.

Trouble is that although many people prefer to identify as "TG" here (many members tend to use the umbrella definition for "transgender" which includes MtFs who do not identify purely as women and who are not transitioning, or people who can't decide), this is not the case in state and federal legal benchmarks for establishing gender. The mainstream has shifted the identification of people who transition from "transsexual" to "transgender". Both terms have become synonymous and the only way to prove that you are TG, in order to benefit from state contracts, is through legal action and not just alternative presentation. Are you legally changing your name to a woman's and are you legally changing your gender designation? This is what is required to qualify as transgender for the purpose of benefitting from state contracts. Dressing like a woman occasionally either fully or partially but retaining a male legal ID is not sufficient.

http://www.transequality.org/documen.../massachusetts

The above link shows the gender change requirements for MA and there is also a drop down menu to change federal gender markers. Our society is indeed beginning to make allowances for people who are born in the wrong body but keep in mind that biologically, we are a binary species. If you do not identify as either a male or a female, or if you identify as both, then I don't know if laws can recognize a third biological gender (neither-female-nor-male, or a-combination-of-both) since this is something that is not quantifiable other than a person's say-so, especially if there is no intention of changing anything legally. Courts of law require evidence, not say-so.

I wish you all the best and I hope you can qualify so you can improve your business prospects, but the intent of the SDP and its expansion is to help various minorities that have traditionally been discriminated against. In terms of the "T", this means people who do not have the option of changing back to birth gender when it is advantageous to do so.

[mykell]

Thanks for the responses thus far.

In Massachusetts there are brownie points for doing business with LGBT-owned businesses and plus-points if they are specifically transgender. I don't know what they get for collecting these valuable points, maybe free coffee, but since there is apparently some benefit it makes sense that you have to certify objectively that you qualify -- I don't object to that.

Shelly was spot-on. It looks like they will accept affidavits from three people who know me as satisfactory.

I was just amused because I've never had a reason to be challenged on this before and it started me thinking what would it be like if one of the "coming out" stories we see so often went like, "I told my wife I was a crossdresser and she said 'BS! Prove it!'" Simply putting on a dress wouldn't cut it, since guys are guys and will do anything to win an argument....

is that the same as members who identify as gay, lesbian, or bi, ? if not its selective enforcement which is usually against the law, each state is different but if the affidavits are not required for the others they should not be required for your business....but i will still offer you the PdF if needed to confirm, but your membership here should be enough, posting a photo of yourself as a female and plastering it on the internet is more than anyone who was not TG would be willing to do....

[Pat]

is that the same as members who identify as gay, lesbian, or bi, ?

Yes, applicants who LGB can also go the affidavit route of they have no other documentation. Likewise transsexuals who have no intention to go have medical intervention can do affidavits. I don't see this as especially onerous in light of the fact that getting certified as an LGBT-owned business confers a benefit. It would be wrong to just accept someone's personal assurance that they qualify because there are people like Mike Huckabee (presidential candidate) who are already on record as saying they'd lie about being transgender so they could shower in the girls' locker room.

i will still offer you the PdF if needed to confirm, but your membership here should be enough, posting a photo of yourself as a female and plastering it on the internet is more than anyone who was not TG would be willing to do....

I totally appreciate it. They're looking for statements from people who have known me personally for a period of time, and I don't have a problem with that. As far as pictures of me in a dress, I could always point them to my flickr account, but see the Mike Huckabee reference above. I know many businessmen who would have no problem getting into a dress if they thought they could gain a competitive advantage.

Trouble is that although many people prefer to identify as "TG" here (many members tend to use the umbrella definition for "transgender" which includes MtFs who do not identify purely as women and who are not transitioning, or people who can't decide), this is not the case in state and federal legal benchmarks for establishing gender.

Maybe. Maybe not. I have clearly identified myself as "transgender not transsexual" to people who presumably know the difference and it has not caused any pushback yet. If it does become an issue, it's important, I think, to push the issue in the same way that Marcelle pushed the Canadian Air Force. It's a Social Warrior thing.

Edit: Here's an interesting bit: I found the following definition in a 2012 amendment to the Massachusetts General Laws. It appears aligned to this forum's definition of transgender (Yay Mass! ):

“Gender identity” shall mean a person's gender-related identity, appearance or behavior, whether or not that gender-related identity, appearance or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person's physiology or assigned sex at birth. Gender-related identity may be shown by providing evidence including, but not limited to, medical history, care or treatment of the gender-related identity, consistent and uniform assertion of the gender-related identity or any other evidence that the gender-related identity is sincerely held as part of a person's core identity; provided, however, that gender-related identity shall not be asserted for any improper purpose.

[PaulaQ]

The above link shows the gender change requirements for MA and there is also a drop down menu to change federal gender markers. Our society is indeed beginning to make allowances for people who are born in the wrong body but keep in mind that biologically, we are a binary species. If you do not identify as either a male or a female, or if you identify as both, then I don't know if laws can recognize a third biological gender (neither-female-nor-male, or a-combination-of-both) since this is something that is not quantifiable other than a person's say-so, especially if there is no intention of changing anything legally. Courts of law require evidence, not say-so.

Other nations are beginning to recognize a third gender, and give it legal status, something along the lines of M-F-X. Why not the US? For example:
Third sex official Australian passports gender options - male-female-x

I wish you all the best and I hope you can qualify so you can improve your business prospects, but the intent of the SDP and its expansion is to help various minorities that have traditionally been discriminated against. In terms of the "T", this means people who do not have the option of changing back to birth gender when it is advantageous to do so.

There are gender fluid trans people. Restricting the definition of transgender based on some medical definition is highly discriminatory to these people. Your identity SHOULD be based on your say so. If it were, and had always been so, this forum would likely not exist. There'd be no need for it.

Basing someone's identity on medical procedures is a genuinely sick idea. I realize many places do this - in theory the place I live does this. (Although not in practice. Here it's up to the judge. You either get one of the handful who'll say "yes", basically as long as your doctor says "yup, they are the opposite gender now", or you get one of the several hundred who'll say "no" regardless of what procedures you've undergone.) It is a horrible idea, and it forces people down a path towards medical and surgical treatments that they may not need at all in order to be able to live their lives. Please understand that I feel this way, and I make this point, despite having had quite a lot of gender related medical and surgical procedures. Those of us who need such procedures should absolutely be able to get them, but those who do not should likewise not be forced into them to allow their paperwork to be put into order.

The idea that humans are binary in any way, shape, or form is a fiction. Everything, from sex to gender, to any other characteristic a person might have exists on a spectrum. The irony about what I quoted is that the reason gender has historically been such a big deal in our society is that having different rules for men and women has been a primary way women have been oppressed historically. As a woman, I've certainly observed this throughout my life.

One of the very serious problems with forcing a legal gender binary is that it forces people who really DO NOT identify as either male or female, and in fact who have SIGNIFICANT gender dysphoria related to being identified as either, to choose a gender that doesn't fit them, but is hopefully less painful to them than their assigned at birth gender. I know people like this - some of them, contrary to what you might think, have had significant medical treatment so that they DO NOT PASS consistently as either male or female. Being forced into a binary gender for ID purposes is hurtful to these people.

There is a tendency to view people with non-binary identities like this as somehow LESS than the identities of someone like me, a trans woman, or those of a cis man or woman. I view that as being highly discrimantory. I disagree with such views in the strongest possible way. These people suffer too - perhaps not in precisely the same way or to the same extent as I have, but nevertheless, their pain is real. I have seen the evidence of it.

Further, I want to clarify one other thing - the idea that CDs or other gender fluid identities, have some sort of "privilege" for being able to suit up in boy mode to get the hard stuff done is also a highly unfair and discriminatory idea. There is no privilege in needing to hide who you are. The idea that a forum full of people who are, for the most part, terrified of showing themselves in public are somehow NOT the targets of discrimination is absurd, frankly.

Lest you think the above is some sort of off-topic aside - I assert that this is EXACTLY the issue that Jennie-cd is facing. And I believe it is wrong that she faces it.

I do not wish to be disrespectful, however, I feel cisgender individuals have no right to speak for transgender people on these matters.

[Cristy2]

I'll have to ask Jenna if she remembers, but Christina ran into a similar situation about a year or so before she died. Of course she had contacts too, but one of her friends was a director or something like that with one of the big LGBT organizations. I think it was PRIDE because she was getting more and more involved with them before she died. Anyway, that person wrote a letter stating that Christina was an honorary member in good standing with the organization and the letter settled the issue.