Gender pondering

[Andrea2000]

Be advised number 1) I tend to be a deep thinker, and I have no one to talk to who really understands me in the real world.

number 2) I'm probably posting this is the wrong thread, but I'm not sure where it would be appropriate so by all means mods, move it if you so desire.

So I have been doing a lot of thinking over the last few months about transgender people, and gender in general and how our society handles it, and I have stumbled upon a few quandaries and paradoxes, confusion and conflicts. Mainly the point being.... what defines one's gender? (post birth) Is it how we act? Our state of mind? What we wear? Etc...

What prompted this line of thought was the news about various transgendered people wanting to use the bathroom that matches their current day gender. I.E. a a transgender woman who was born a biological male wanting to use the ladies room.

So I ran a few thought experiments in my head on different hypothetical situations and I found myself conflicted. It raised questions in my mind about what makes a transgender a transgender anyway?

Using myself as an example, I've got a feminine nature about me, and as a result, yes, I do like to wear clothes from the women's rack on the store, as I feel it expresses this side of me, and I like the way I look in them. Yet I still "present" as a man, because that's the way nature made me, and I'm fine with that. Now personally, I don't see where this takes away from my femininity because many GG's don't wear makeup, or fix their hair a certain way, or even wear "girly" clothes, but can be seen in more masculine outfits. I know... I see it all of the time, and they are not F2M's either. No they are living their life as a woman, albeit a masculine one. Many may like and enjoy activities typically associated with men, with trends becoming very popular in the last few decades. Sometimes they may wear a dress, or something "girly" when the occasion calls for it, such as a friends wedding, a job interview in a traditional establishment etc, but it's the same way I would wear something "manly" in those same situations where a certain etiquette in style is called for.

It's sort of the same way for me, just the other way around.

So, here's the paradox.... If you're a transgendered woman (male at birth), where is the line that defines your gender as "female"? Is it the clothes you wear? Your state of mind? etc... Now you may obviously say... "of course it's not just the clothes... it's deeper than that". And I'd tend to agree, BUT how would you rate yourself in a regular mens clothes? And GG's do wear them and still identify their gender as "female". At that point, does one stop being a transgendered woman? Maybe not? ... Walk into the bathroom now...! Yes, the dynamic changes a little.

To take it a step further... can we honestly say that it's fair to transgendered people to "dress the part" in order to count as "transgendered?" Is not a woman in men's clothes still often considered a woman in society? Is not a men wearing women's clothes still often considered a man in socieity? So if our clothes do not define GG's and GM's... then how is it fair they should define T's?

Is it not possible then for me to consider my gender "female" even when wearing my regular work (men's) clothes? No? Why not? Did I change? Or was it just my clothing?

As I challenge these idea's in my head I have come up with a few ideas on how to live my life accordingly. First, this is one reason I don't really try to hard to "pass". Sure I have my days when I just want to look "stunning", and may apply some nail polish, a tease my hair a little, make sure everything is freshly shaved, but I don't go all out or anything. I really don't have a big issue with society thinking I'm nothing more than a "girly man", because in all actuality... that's probably the best label for me. Kind of like a candy bar... crunchy on the outside, soft, and sweet on the inside. And it doesn't matter what wrapper I'm in, I'm still the same candy bar underneath.

Welcome to the Andrea onion.

[Steve]

I often find myself pondering the same things. What i have come to accept is that because TG is an umbrella term for a spectrum and by that defenition i am TG. But to what part of the spectrum i am at is still a mistery. I may find out one day soon with the help from my therapist

[Justina]

That's interesting.

[Secret Drawer]

I understand the #1 thing you brought up... not many people relate to philosophical researchers!
Now the gender thing. There are many who now question gender outside of biology. However, (having done a bit of research on it) it seems that there are in FACT gender preferences that are both cross cultural and over time similar enough to separate the genders in a relatively binary way. Most people simply prefer most of the "stuff" that attaches to one or the other gender in normal social settings. In a simplification: Cis-gendered males do not wear womens clothing in part because it simply does not occur to them to even consider trying it. It is the "why would you do that?" even more than the social taboo of it. Cis-gendered women will "put together" an outfit to wear, trying on this or that until they "get it right," without even thinking much on it. It simply is a part of their preference psychology. Therefore, what makes a TG a TG is that our preference variances fall too far out of range of CIS-gendered. This also goes a long way to explaining why it is all so muddled in our own heads sometimes!

[Marcelle]

Hello Andrea,

I will approach this question as a transwoman as that is who I am . . . a woman albeit born in a male body. Genetics defines who I am physically, my hair colour, my eye colour, having my mother's nose vice my fathers and yes "sex". In a nutshell, I was born XY and I will die XY. However, that does not define me as a person or as a woman. I am just dealing with the genetic hand dealt to me. How do I know I am a woman . . . I just do. I feel it in the deepest part of my core and it has nothing to do with how I dress, present, act or what hobbies I enjoy. I still engage in all my old hobbies and past-times many of which are stereotypically male and some of which are stereotypically female . . . but they do not define me. How do I feel when I wear male clothing? Well, I don't . . . I wear my clothing which is bought from the women's side of the isle because I am a woman. Now, being the in the military, I wear a uniform and with the exception of button placement on the dress shirts, it is identical to the male uniform. In addition, my combat clothing is gender neutral. So how do I rate myself when dressed as such . . . as a woman (see below).



Cheers

[Someone777]

Throw hermaphrodites into the mix and things get can get really vague. Though, a "perfect" hermaphrodite (one with a fully functional sets of both parts) are apparently as rare as unicorns. Can you imagine trying to identify as either gender when you're technically both?

This also brings to question the habit of doctors "fixing" their gender when they're born. News flash, they've been known to get it wrong. Can you imagine being raised as one gender when you're physically the other and didn't even know it because a doctor screwed up when you were born? That sort of thing actually happens.

[Rachael Leigh]

This is a great question and discussion since Ive come a long ways in where I am over the last two years. For me I do consider myself on the TG side but I do know I am male born and also that wont change, but what about me makes me change or be when I dress? I do want to present as a women when I dress and while I know Im not I think the reason for this is a societal thing, if I wore a skirt or dress or flower top I would be seen as gay or something such as that and I dont want to be seen that way, not only that I want to wear makeup and look nice so I can be pretty or what I feel is pretty.
Why? I dont know that answer but I know it brings me to a good place where Im now comfortable being and presenting as a women. This has brought me to a place where I consider myself gender fluid and its not an easy place but I manage it as best I can.
I know we all have to find our place on this gender road and I dont think its easy for any of us but Im glad we have this place to share and care.
Thanks Andrea for a great topic for us all to ponder
Leigh

[Teresa]

Andrea,
Some may accuse you of playing with labels again,, no not candy bar ones !!
Before joining the forum I had thoughts of being part female but didn't have enough information and struggled with my self acceptance. Is too much information a dangerous thing ? It's very easy to find you've jumped on the TS bandwagon, but in doing so the questions it raised pushed me into gender counseling. I finally came to the conclusion that I'm just on the male side of TS, I will remain male but accept the female trait has strong needs and to satisfy it I dress as much as possible.

So taking your points I'm OK with my male gender, my female side is like any female with the same needs, I like to dress to make the most of it, now I'm out at social meetings the question of passing or not doesn't feel as important as the feeling of total comfort being dressed to satisfy my female needs.
As Marcelle points out ,even dressed in a gender neutral uniform doesn't take away the feeling of satisfying an inner feeling.

[Julia1984]

Andrea, I like the cut of your jib ( and your onion)! See my post in "have you ever kissed a man?" for my own half baked musings and thought experiment.
Julia

[suzanne]

"Where is the line?" It seems to me that you're thinking in terms of the gender binary, ie you're either this or that. Gender, as it applies to us at least, is a whole continuous spectrum that goes from 0%male 100%female all the way to 100%male 0%female. Most of us in this forum are some mix nearer to the female end of the scale. Very few people anywhere are 100 % either way.

When do you become one and cease to be the other? I say never. You are always you, however you present. As I write this, my wife and I are sitting together. I am wearing a skirt, she has pants on. My toenails are bright red, hers have no color. I am still her husband and she is good with that, and getting more comfortable every day, bless her heart.

[Tina_gm]

I think the word you are really looking for is identity. The only person who can really determine their identity is themselves.

If what you wear, what you look like, or what you do has no bearing on your internal identity, then it is fairly safe to say you are a transwoman. Cders will often make the identity jump when presenting as a woman, and that is what makes them cders. Technically tg, or under the tg umbrella at least.

Those such as myself, can and do have a dual gender identity. I never drift completely from eithrr gender, regardless of how I am dressed or what I am doing. I often relate more to one side or the other.... if I do feel I am more aligned feminine, I will dress more, or at least I will desire to dress more, but the desire never fades completely. I never get completely to either gender. Because I am genetically male, I live the majority of my life male. Being male, living as one does not cause a great deal of discomfort, but I do often feel a deep empty space where expression as a female would fill.

[Tracii G]

Just a heads up with being a "deep thinker" that is going to bring up more questions than answers to a subject that is hard to define anyway.
Its not a black and white subject that has strict parameters that you can build a pie chart off of and plenty have tried.
Trying to find an answer for why you are like you are may end up being harder than you realize.
If you are comfy being you that is all that matters and from reading your post it seems you have reached that point.

[Andrea2000]

Thanks for sharing you all's thoughts! Some of the replies really cleared the air. It is, and always will be a complex subject. Im on my phone now but I'd like to write more later when I have a keypad that doesn't keep trying to correct gender to fender. Lol

[Robin414]

Great thread Andrea, I'm in the same boat! My thought experiment has that boat sinking off the coast of a deserted island. I manage to swim ashore and before being rescued I survived by wearing palm leafs and doing really gross stuff...did I still feel like a woman 😕 ?

(In my experiment the answer was yes, and like you I occasionally dress to impress but most often, I'm just a chic with a few masculine characteristics ☺ )

[rachelatshop]

Over the last half year I have spent a great deal of time exploring my cross dressing and my gender identity, and have found that I identify with the gender that my mind tell me that I am, regardless of how I dress or my physical appearance to the outside world. I believe that all males have both X and Y chromosomes, and cis-males are those whose Y chromosome is completely dominate, and if you are a male whose X chromosome is dominate you will feel that your gender identity is female regardless of your physical appearance, and you will need to address that need. Then there are males where neither X or Y chromosome is dominate, therefore those males exibit both genders at the same time, and their gender identity may vary at times. How we dress or act doesn't identify our gender.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

...what defines one's gender? (post birth) ...where is the line that defines your gender as "female"?

I'm going to state the obvious, since nobody else has so far:

You're male right up to the point that you undergo full gender reassignment, which presumably involves a legal re-definition as woman.

Anything less is impersonation.

[Secret Drawer]

Sorry Nikki, but it is not "obvious" outside the biological as to what psychological gender one may be. It IS very hurtful rhetoric to use words like impersonation. There are many people in the world who are true transsexuals that could never afford or perhaps for medical reasons consider a full transition. Having certain plumbing does not make gender outside of strict scientific guidelines. Humans have a tendancy to have a lot more going on psychologically regarding gender then biology determines.

[Someone777]

I hate to be the odd one in this conversation but I've always felt gender was a strictly physical thing. This is why things tend to get a bit muddled for people who aren't clearly, physically defined by a gender, as with the case of hermaphrodites.

As for "gender roles," I don't really believe in that. When it comes to personality tests, my results are almost always really close to being an even split. We all have a mix of feminine and masculine traits. I've never met a person that I thought, this person has absolutely no feminine qualities or that person has absolutely no masculine qualities. I also think the whole "gender fluid" thing is a load of crap. That's just someone wanting to feel like a special snow flake so they come up with a new label that technically applies to everyone, ever. I don't emotionally or romantically identify as a gender. I am myself and that's all I need to be.

[Marcelle]

Just a point folks I think most prefer the term "intersexed" vice "hermaphrodite". I could be wrong but the one person I know from this forum prefers that term.

I'm going to state the obvious, since nobody else has so far:

You're male right up to the point that you undergo full gender reassignment, which presumably involves a legal re-definition as woman.

Anything less is impersonation.

Umm . . . I am assuming Nikki you mean in the physical sense (i.e., sexual characteristics). I see myself as a woman and I have not nor do I plan any chemical or surgical intervention to change my physical form. Still a woman just in a man's body and that is fine by me.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Mayo]

Though PaulaQ could probably answer this better than I (as could other writers on trans issues, e.g. Julia Serano [insert plug for her book 'Whipping Girl' here]), I'll give this a shot. I haven't yet figured out a concise way to express my thoughts on this matter, so you get to read this whole long thing. Or you can skip to the last paragraph for the capsule summary.

First, a couple of style points: It's generally not considered correct to refer to someone as 'transgendered' or 'a transgender'. One should say 'a transgender [or trans] person' or 'trans woman' (not 'transwoman'). Please see the GLAAD Media Reference Guide.

The question is one of sex vs gender. Sex is, colloquially speaking, that constellation of biological characteristics that determines which one of the two standard models of humanity (male or female) we are. Gender is, more or less, which of those groups we are assigned to by others (correctly or not) and the social roles and expectations that go along with that choice.

Gender is a social label, as can be seen from the fact that we gender things that have no sex (e.g. ships). In people, gender is a combination of appearance (e.g. hair, clothing), behaviour (mannerisms), attitudes and stereotypes commonly associated with one or the other sex and which may vary over time or from place to place. The degree to which you match these expectations determines how well you 'perform' your gender, while deviating from these stereotypes will cause your membership in that group to be questioned (a short-haired woman who fixes cars, a gay man, etc.).

Sex is usually defined by what's between our legs at birth on the assumption that there are only two basic models, but not every human that comes off the assembly line is clearly labelled. Estimates are that somewhere between 1:100 and 1:1000 babies have ambiguous genitals, and well-meaning doctors and parents often attempt to resolve these 'anomalies' by surgically assigning the child to one or the other gender. Often they get it wrong. Most proponents of 'bathroom bills' will argue that genital appearance is a reflection of one's binary genetic makeup (XX or XY), but they neglect the fact that genetics are far from being binary. There's an excellent article on the biology of sex here:

The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that.

This article illustrates that biological sex is really an ongoing tug of war between the two states of 'male' and 'female'. This goes on from the moment we are conceived and continues, in some ways, throughout life. Sex is not binary, but falls on a continuum and is expressed in a multiplicity of ways (genetics, hormones, etc.). Being 'male' or 'female' is not simply a matter of what's between our legs - that's just a convenient shorthand that doesn't always match up with the reality that we are all a mixture of the two in many different ways.

I'm one of those people who believe that there is some physical basis to gender - that, biologically, males (on average) tend to have some certain appearances, temperaments and behaviours that women (on average) do not, and vice versa, that are caused by developmental expression of the 'male' type vs the 'female' type (either due to default genetic programming or the in utero environment), and which in turn have some differential effects on brain development that, finally, may be reflected in cognitive differences. However, given the multitude of factors that affect brain development, and to the extent that there actually is 'gender' in the brain, I see no reason that we can't have a mix of such traits. Throw social programming (gender assignment) into the mix and you can potentially even reverse whatever setting the brain has naturally. That is, both nature and nurture are important. The degree to which these two factors affect gender identification may also vary from person to person, with some being more biologically hardwired and others less so. (I think sexual orientation is similar - we 'default' to mainly heterosexual, but in some people this internal attraction may vary more to one pole or the other, and that social conditioning and expectations can push this even farther one way or the other.)

Categorizing things and putting them into little mental boxes helps human beings reduce the complexities of reality to manageable chunks. Unfortunately, we tend to forget that these chunks are the result of our own cognitive strategies and are not reality themselves, and we get our panties in a knot when things don't conform to our simplified views of the world. Some people have more trouble with this than others. I acknowledge that humans tend toward one gender or the other (or one sexual orientation or another), but I realize that it is a continuum and that a lot of our distinctions between the extremes are socially manufactured to promote social agendas, e.g. hierarchical power structures (in the same way and for the same reasons that 'race' is a social construct). I think it would do us all a lot of good if we were able to relax these stereotypes and accept that people are different and not try to fit everyone into boxes.

Gender identity is something individual, shaped by genetics, developmental processes and social conditioning (good or bad). It usually but not always accords with biological sex (whatever that means...). Given that we don't have the technology to measure the neurological basis of gender identity (to whatever extent there is one), we must rely on self-reports (the same is true of sexual orientation).

The clothes one wears are external markers of gender and will affect how one is perceived, but other characteristics (build, facial hair, voice pitch, etc.) are typically more important. Unless one expressly identifies as non-binary, one's own internal gender identity presumably doesn't change (much) depending on what one wears (though others may change their perceptions). Clothes become more important as one's physical appearance becomes more ambiguous, but they can't always override the physical markers of biological sex, so dressing at odds with one's perceived gender will create cognitive clashes in observers (which is only a problem because our social conventions say it is). If one is identifying as a gender that is largely at odds with one's physical appearance (the markers that identify us to others as 'male' or 'female'), one should make some effort to present as that gender (using clothing and other markers such as hair length) as a concession to the social etiquette of a bi-gendered world. Ultimately, though, people should not have to 'pass' in order to express their gender identity because that may set up an impossible goal if their physical characteristics are strongly at odds with their self-identity.

As far as bathroom choice goes, in a society that still divides bathrooms into two categories we should probably make an effort to abide by social conventions to at least some degree and use the bathroom appropriate to how we are presenting at any given moment unless there is some compelling reason to override that (e.g. fear of assault). (I personally am in favour of gender-neutral facilities, but we have too many sexual hang-ups to go that route at this time.) In other words, if you're presenting as male, use the men's - if as female, use the women's. On the other hand, proponents of 'bathroom bills' need to relax their binary thinking and get with reality.

tl;dr - Neither sex nor gender are binary. Gender identity may not match up with physical markers that others use to assign gender. To put binary-minded people more at ease, try to present as the gender with which you identify and use the bathroom of the gender you are presenting as - at least until after the gender revolution.

[Someone777]

Just a point folks I think most prefer the term "intersexed" vice "hermaphrodite". I could be wrong but the one person I know from this forum prefers that term.

You're right, a lot of them do prefer that term. I just couldn't remember the word. I often have to resort to using the term I can remember since I rarely remember the specific word I'm trying to grasp. If I recall, "intersexed" is also intended to be a broader term than hermaphrodite. I have a lot of relatives in the medical field and a lot of words that might seem derogatory are used in a much more clinical sense by people in the medical field. When they ask for information from you, unless you're specifically talking to someone who works in the field of psychology, they're not interested in what you're trying to represent yourself as, they want to know your biology because, in the field of medicine, having a clear picture of a person's biology is very important for the sake of getting things right. So, I tend to have a similar mindset when it comes to talking about such things and that probably rubs some people the wrong way. I don't really mean anything by it.

I just wanted to say, Mayo's post is really a great reply. I still stand by my belief that gender isn't an identity, that gender roles are a lot of nonsense and that people shouldn't try to label themselves that way. I already know that's not a popular opinion though. Personality-wise, I don't really identify as either. So, that might explain my view a bit.

[Mayo]

I agree that gender roles are largely nonsense, especially in modern society, but I think there is something to gender identity. That said, not everybody has it (agender, neutrois, etc.) and there's nothing wrong with that - it's just part of the human spectrum.

As I noted in my previous post (and in others as well), people like to categorize things - it gives them a shorthand method of describing things, of saying "here's this thing, and it has certain characteristics that I won't bother listing in detail because you already know pretty much what I mean just because I've used this particular word to label it". People use labels for themselves to identify to others (or themselves) who they are and to what groups they feel they belong. They label others to include or exclude them, to describe them or imply things about them or to judge them.

We think we know what our labels mean without thinking about them because we've learned the stereotypes and the assumptions that go with them, but being confronted by cases that break our definitions forces us to think about those assumptions and (hopefully) realize that our shorthand does not always accurately describe reality. Labels can be helpful or hurtful and it's important to realize that they are always limited in their applicability.


NOTE: I mentioned Julia Serano's book 'Whipping Girl' in my last post, and just this minute ran across an article about the second edition that's just been released. The article discusses some of the points I made in my previous post (her thinking has obviously influenced my own). I recommend it.

[TinaMc]

Just to say, one notion of transgender is transgressing gender - as in breaking free of the usual boundaries that have been established socially.

[Julia1984]

Since coming out (to myself at least) as CD I've thought about this a lot. I feel the idea of being attractive to (an attractive) man somewhat erotic in itself. BUT I don't feel that it would ever go beyond that. On the other hand, to all the affirmedly "straight" girls, try this thought experiment:
Imagine your ideal woman (celeb/actress or whatever). Now imagine a cismale who looks incredibly like that person apart from the physical hardware/plumbing. Call him A. Now imagine a thoroughly unattractive or even repulsive ciswoman. Call them B. You are now offered the choice of having intimate relations with either A or B in return for a no strings payment of $1m (or an appropriately larger sum if you are rich - im not!). You have to choose A or B or something awful will happen to you or someone you care about. Whom do you choose?
I suspect many would choose A. Not all, but a good few who would have categorised themselves as straight. I might even choose A myself.
The point of course is that gender and sexuality are not only different issues but also not necessarily polar or binary choices. After all, its not the female plumbing ITSELF that is intrinsically attractive or erotic, so what is it? If as some propose it is femininity then of course one might go for A for a very good reason. As someone said, we need an expanded vocabulary with which to think about and discuss these issues. More to the point, so does society in general and the muggle world in particular.
Thoughts?
Julia

[sometimes_miss]

Imagine your ideal woman (celeb/actress or whatever). Now imagine a cismale who looks incredibly like that person apart from the physical hardware/plumbing. Call him A. Now imagine a thoroughly unattractive or even repulsive ciswoman. Call them B. You are now offered the choice of having intimate relations with either A or B in return for a no strings payment of $1m (or an appropriately larger sum if you are rich - im not!). You have to choose A or B or something awful will happen to you or someone you care about. Whom do you choose?
I suspect many would choose A.

This assumes bisexuality. When it comes down to having sex with 'A' it simply isn't going to be possible for a heterosexual male. Perhaps if we are willing to be the receptive one, but when presented with male anatomy, I simply feel a complete revulsion to the idea of anything sexual happening, to the point where no sexual arousal is possible. And I guarantee I'm not alone in this feeling. As far as having sex with 'B', there's no guarantee I could perform that, either. You simply cannot force yourself to get an erection, even at the threat of execution of yourself or someone you care about. It's one of the limitations of being a heterosexual male; without the attraction, sex simply isn't possible when the person indicated is repulsive to you.