Cis and trans binary

[TinaMc]

I've been thinking about the sort of criticism of the socially constructed gender binary, mainly by trans people and trans allies and enforced/upheld by cis-gender people. However, isn't cis- and trans-gender a socially constructed gender binary in itself (although constructed largely by trans people)? It's all a bit us and them...
I guess this kind of led on from Andrea2000's gender pondering post from the other day. One thing it made me think about is that there are a whole lot of women are not trans, but wear largely "unfeminine" (or even traditionally masculine) clothing and don't go the whole way with make up and all that, no heels, etc. I wrote in that thread that trans can refer to transgressing gender boundaries, and these women kind of do but without identifying (by themselves or by others) as trans.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is maybe that the transgender spectrum is a complete spectrum that stretches well into the "cis-gender" population? And at what point does the cis become trans?
Another thing is that I think most cis-gender people absolutely don't think of themselves as cis-gender, they are just "normal". The trans people are at the edge of normal (or just over the edge, depending on the perspective of said cis-person), so it makes the binary that we've created even more arbitrary, doesn't it?
Just some random thoughts anyway, what do you think?

[Tracii G]

Personally none of the cis and binary talk means anything to me.
Kind of a fruitless construct that nobody can agree on.
Just be happy being yourself and don't worry about where you fit in some gender spectrum.
People get so hung up on all this stuff.

[TinaMc]

Yeah, I think I nearly pulled a brain muscle thinking about this one.

[Tracii G]

Over thinking the trans thing causes people so much stress I have to ask is it worth it?

[TinaMc]

I'm an analyst, I overthink things. It doesn't cause me stress though, this is more about testing a line of thought than really wondering about my place in the world.

[Dana44]

I've been out there pushing the envelope on that testing that very theory. I think many people are a bit off kilter anyways and it is more arbitrary.

[Angie G]

I say just put on a dress and don't worry about it.
Angie

[Mayo]

Some people argue that the gender binary is a construct and that trans people are anti-feminist for 'supporting' it by adhering to binary stereoypes of male and female. I say they aren't - at least no more than anybody else. I'm all in favour of breaking down the binary and I think that trans people can help to do this but the onus should not be on them to do so. It's a job for everybody.

[PaulaQ]

In reality, there is no inherent difference between cisgender and transgender people. Transgender people are just people.

The cis / trans binary is, in reality a socially constructed thing. If society allowed you to define who you are, rather than insisting it had the absolute authority to define core parts of your identity based on a cursory examination of your genitals at the time of your birth, such distinctions wouldn't exist.

They created this distinction by insisting "you aren't like us." Me? I'm just a woman, pretty much the same as any other woman.

The reason they create such a distinction and why categorizing people at birth is so crucial to them is that it is part of a terrible system of control that oppresses many classes of people.

All of this seems confusing to you because you don't grasp one very simple fact. Almost everything you've ever been told about your society, and your place in it, is a total lie.

Trans people, much to our chagrin, simply find ourselves in a place where we are unable to live the lie any longer - this is what makes us so dangerous to their minds. Our rejection of their authority at such a fundamental level (we have little choice through no fault of our own), is dangerous to that system. At least that is the impulsive reaction to us.

This rejection of trans people has nothing to do with the reasons we are commonly given. It is about control, and the rejection of control. Rejection of control is extremely dangerous to someone in control - once control is lost, regaining it can become impossible. Everything else is just a fiction spun around this so that you don't see it.

Wake up.

[AnnieMac]

Kinda of a lame-o question but I know what CIS is, but what do those initials actually stand for?

[docrobbysherry]

Tina, I've read a jillion posts here from T's responding to my and other's questions about what they feel like? What feeling male or female or something else feels like?

By far, most answered, "I feel like me." So, since we can't know what normal or abnormal or being someone else feels like, we all just guess!

Maybe the few of us that can clearly identify more than one personality inside themselves can explain the "they"?

I think that's why some folks drink and/or take drugs. To allow the "they" inside to show "themselves"!

[Pat]

Kinda of a lame-o question but I know what CIS is, but what do those initials actually stand for?

Not a lame question at all. "Cis" and "trans" are Latin prefixes. "Cis" means "on the same side of" and "trans" means "across from" (or as people like to say when justifying the use of cis, "on the other side of.") The term arose because conversations that needed to happen needed a way to say "not transgender," so you would say someone is "cisgender" meaning their gender is "on the same side of the binary" as their sex. And thus, "transgender" meaning "on the opposite side of" their sex.

It's rare to find other words that use the "cis" prefix -- the only one I know for sure is "cislunar" used to describe things -- like satellites -- between the earth and the moon. I.e. satellites are "on the same side of" the moon as the earth is.

[Mayo]

It's been a while since I took organic chemistry, but cis and trans are used there to specify on what sides of a molecule two chemical groups are attached. Two that are on the same side are cis, if they are on opposite sides, they are trans.

Wikipedia has a brief introduction to that usage. See the diagram for butene (C4H8) at the top right of the page for a simple example.

[Beverley Sims]

Without being too disrespectful I was going to ask what have you been smoking?

With a question like yours and a bit of deep thinking into the bargain you need to put it in layman's terms so as others can gain more understanding.

People like me....

Most of us want to get off the gravy train, sail on a fantasy cruise, wear dresses forever or go back to chasing girls whilst in drab.

I will keep reading this thread to see if your question gets answered.

It is likely I will learn more as questions like this do pop up from time to time and there is a lot for us all to learn.

Being a student of Latin I did learn from Jennie about Cis and Trans, I had forgotten the connection there.

Those ancient Romans a lot to answer for. :-)

[TinaMc]

Ok, I've had a think, I guess I'm just coming to the conclusion that I think cis gender as a concept is pretty bunk. Transgender just isn't solid enough as a concept for there to be something that is just "not trans". That's about it really.

[Pat]

It's a fine conclusion to have reached for yourself, but keep in mind that it's not true for everyone. And allow yourself room to evolve on it as time goes on.

[Beverley Sims]

Tina,
What you have been thinking about I would say has substance, it is just that you have written it off the top of your head and probably not explained it well.

You only have to scan through some of my more incomprehensible posts to see what I am "trying" to say. :-)

Don't let any of us stop you from deep thinking.

There are others roaming the country at the moment standing up and speaking incomprehensibly. :-) :-)

[PaulaQ]

Transgender just isn't solid enough as a concept for there to be something that is just "not trans". That's about it really.

This is not that hard. Being transgender means your gender identity and / or expression don't match societal norms for others who have the same sex assigned at birth as you do. Societal norms for these things are still pretty rigid - enough so that plenty of us who are transgender are murdered because of it each year. More than 99% of the population is, as best we can tell, not trans! For the overwhelming majority of people, their gender identity AND expression align with what's expected for their assigned at birth sex. For a small percentage, their expression doesn't align (crossdressers, drag queens, butches, etc.), but their identity does. And for some of us, neither our gender identity or expression align with what society expects of us based on our birth.

The vast majority of people are cisgender. They are men and women. They act and present like men and women are expected to act. A few of them are gay, lesbian, or bisexual. But they are still men or women. Who they believe themselves to be, and how they present themselves matches what's on their birth certificate under "Sex."

[pamela7]

PaulaQ reply no 9 - yes, as ever, right on.

[BillieAnneJean]

Even gender seems to have a spectrum, as in cis to full on SRS. I did a blog on this and the need for all of us to aide each other. A house divided thing.

[TinaMc]

This is not that hard.

Well this is where your opinion and mine diverge. I tend to think that what is transgender is actually a complex question, and it has many nuances.

It's pretty obvious that by and large transgender is an identity. Identities exist as a kind of negotiation between society at large and the individuals claiming the identity.

The definition of what society sees as transgender is changing. You can see this plainly in the media, online etc. Crossdressers aren't a part of what the "aware" public considers as transgender. Hell, wikipedia says: "infrequently the term is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers", so kind of an unhappy acknowledgement that sometimes crossdressers might be considered transgender. You can see the same sentiment among a lot of young people, the requirement for them to consider someone to be transgender is to have a different gender identity to the one they were assigned at birth. If you identify as a male crossdresser, you are male identifying, i.e. not transgender.

So you've got the public saying that people who think they are transgender aren't transgender. Then you've got crossdressers on this here very forum who say they aren't transgender. AKA, the above mentioned negotiation of the identity. You have to want the identity in the first place.

Now on top of this you also have early onset transsexuals who pass very well and pretty much blend in as their "destination" sex. Do they identify as transgender? I would hazard a guess that they mostly don't, that they would want to just be able to live in their destination role as (in terms of MTF) "normal" females. People with intersex conditions? I don't know, it would be a guess at best and I've already done that once in this post.

So effectively, you've got a concept called transgender that is shaky at best, and then you are bringing in a non-identity called cisgender, which is simply "not transgender". I mean at least with homosexuality and heterosexuality you have positive behaviours (as in doing behaviours - hetero- is attracted to one thing, homo- the other) on both sides, cisgender simply means an absence of transgenderism.

Anyway, the people I mentioned earlier, crossdressers who the public doesn't think are transgender, well are they? If not then they are cisgender. Crossdressers who don't want to be transgender, they are cisgender. Early onset "hidden" transsexuals are also obviously cisgender.

So the waters are muddier than you'd think at first glance. To be honest, apart from transsexuals who actively identify as transgender and non-transsexuals who live full time as the "other" (or an alternative let's say) gender I don't see who really remains as transgender (if you use the "new" concept), but there you go...

On top of this, the whole trans and cis binary is actually built on the foundations of the gender binary. Basically, you've got male and female binary. These combined are cis. The ones who exist outside of the gender binary are trans. So if you are saying "I'm transgender and they are cisgender, and I don't believe in the gender binary", well you are kind of using a logic that negates the whole concept of trans and cis anyway... Which was my original point.

[Tina_gm]

Gender binary if I am understanding it is that a person fully identifies one way or the other, not partly, not a combination, or in any other way is there some discrepancy between internal and genetic physical gender.

Transgender can be that a person either partly or fully identifies as opposite their birth gender. Or have some discrepancies that cause them to act, or think in numerous ways which are opposite their birth gender. I do think that you are creating more mental work about it than necessary. Cis gender people are simply those, who are the vast majority of people whose internal identity gender wise matches their physical gender.

The differences between transgender and cis gender are quite simple. About as simple as anything can be really. The cis gender person will simply identify as the gender they physically are. They will generally always relate and understand those who are the same gender they are. They will generally have behavior patterns that are typical of their physical gender. Males are more hard task oriented. They tend to seek to dominate. They tend to compete for that dominance more. Their powers of empathy are generally not as strong as their female counter parts. Not that they don't have empathy, but that it is generally stronger in females than males.

Transgender males (mtf) there is a divergence from this. While there are at times effeminate men.... transgender mtf's will diverge on those norms often to where they relate and understand females better than males. They are likely to feel as or more comfortable around females. They will feel as or more comfortable in feminine surroundings and with behaviors and appearance that is feminine.

There are those such as myself which zig zag between male and female. There are those that are right up the middle and never identify much with either. There are those that are completely opposite their birth gender, they are TS, and often end up transitioning. I do not think the difference between transgender and cis gender is muddy at all. the spectrum of transgender though can be quite complex.

[Mayo]

Cis (same) and trans (opposite) gender are concepts exactly comparable to homo (same) and hetero (different) sexuality. I submit that the OP is considering cis to be 'not a thing' simply because it is the default (privileged) framework, in the same way that male, white, hetero and Christian are the defaults in the US. Cis and trans are a continuum, in a sense, but there are many different ways to be trans. There are arguably a number of ways to be cis, but they are more similar to each other (because 'same') than the ways of being trans (different).

[PaulaQ]

Early onset "hidden" transsexuals are also obviously cisgender.

No they sure as hell aren't! You are right that people who've sufficiently beaten gender dysphoria sometimes don't feel they are transgender. They still are though. They will often have unique medical needs cisgengender people will not have, for one thing. They also have history and life experiences that are different.

You are really getting balled up on terminology. The vast majority of individuals are cisgender. We coined this term as "not transgender", to keep from referring to people who are not transgender as " normal," which would make all of us abnormal.

The category of people whose gender identity and expression follows their biology and societal norms is pretty clear cut. And they outnumber us by 10x to 100x, depending on whose population estimate you believe.

Yes, transgender is an umbrella term that covers lots of identifies, including non-binary ones. Cisgender is the default, privileged position.

In my opinion, for the most part, the only cisgender people here are the GG's. (Still hate that term.) There are plenty of CDs who don't identify as trans. I think that is mostly fear and denial talking. You may identify as male - but this thing you do that you can't shake marks you as being different from most people.

[TinaMc]

Gendermutt, the gender binary is basically that there are men and women, and men's roles are inherent and so are women's. It's the typical patriarchal BS. My point about gender binary is if you are saying men are men and women are women, and together they are cis, with the exception of some people who are trans, well it's just maintaining the same framework. Trans people tend to be at least somewhat against the gender binary. My whole point is you can't just layer another binary (cis/trans) on top of the gender binary (cis = male/female binary), and then deny the same gender binary. Admittedly it stops being a strict binary and becomes a kind of hierarchy but you know what I mean hopefully.

PaulaQ, sorry I'm not convinced. I may be hung up on the terminology, but language is powerful and how we conceptualise things is important. If a concept can't stand up to a slight degree of scrutiny it's not a great deal of use.
Now transgender is basically a gender identity. That's fair enough, I agree. What it encompasses remains questionable IMO - certainly transgender identified transsexuals and full time cross-gender presenting non-transexuals, CDs not so certain (as I mentioned this group is not considered TG by a lot of the educated public), others I don't know. Furthermore, telling people that they are transgender when they don't want to own that identity is kind of treading down the same road as other kinds of misgendering. Same with calling people who you decide are cisgender cisgender who don't accept that they are cisgender. You are misgendering the cisgendered :P.
I'm not sure about the privilege bit, I think that's another topic, but I personally don't feel a lack of white male privilege due to crossdressing.

Mayo re: the comparison with homosexual/heterosexual, well I don't see what cisgender people do other than not have a desire to be the other gender (full or part time)? That is really not doing anything...

Anyways, I've enjoyed this discussion, thanks for playing along . I'm not sure if I'll write much more on it, I think I've made up my mind. Despite my arguments, I do fully accept transgender as a concept, but I think what it encompasses is very much dependent on who you are talking to. As such, cisgender meaning not TG is pretty much useless (IMO). I probably wouldn't define myself as transgender, I certainly wouldn't put it on a equal opportunities employment form. I personally wouldn't be upset either way if someone else thought I was transgender (being a crossdresser), I'm not going to be precious about it, but I just don't think that the current wider understanding of transgender really includes occasional crossdressers like me.