What is the goal here? To create hostilities and then self-ban oneself from a particular store? If so, Paula's approach is perfect.Originally Posted by I Am Paula
Also, that salesperson will remember the encounter. I wouldn't want to be the next TG person who walks in.
It is better to educate than remonstrate!
Part of the original post:
What does this tell us? Not enough to make an informed response. Wig? Boobs and bra? Feminine blouse? Jewelry? Women's shoes? Clean shaven and at least beard cover and possibly lipstick?I was wearing a skirt and pantihose, rather than jeans and a T shirt. I know that I don't pass, but I am "girl sized" (5'9", 150#, size 13). I thought I looked pretty cute.
Even so, i was still "Sir'd" by an SA.
How do we expect members of the public to address us as females when we don't look convincing as females (we don't pass)? They can't read our minds and it's unfair to expect them to or to complain to management when they get it wrong.
The OP admits he doesn't pass so I don't see what the issue is here.
i know how you feel Steffi i was in Toronto fully dressed and made up and walked into a Sephora Store in a huge downtown mall.
i had asked a young woman working there to help me with my lipstick which i had screwed up, she was adorable and did a mini
makeover for me so i bought some blush when i went to the counter to pay the male cashier said "will that be all sir" i didn't say
anything but i thought you SOB hang in there Steffie as we all know "the wheels of justice turn ever so slowly"
i don't think a 1% minority can take offense that a 99% majority does not understand its customs, <insert relevant wrong word/title used in genuine error>.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
I like both of Erin's comments, it is certainly mush easer to let it slide unless you are agressive and do want to get in a cat fight.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
I don't see anything wrong with gently asking someone to address you as a woman, and assume they made an honest mistake at guessing your gender. But really, isn't the most important part of the process the manner in which you are treated by the SA'S, rather than the pronouns they use? You mentioned that you weren't fully passable, so why would you expect to be "ma'am" to them? Especially if they may have previously met someone like me, for example. Because these days, it's unlikely that you're the only crossdresser they have ever seen and the water in Gender Lake is getting muddier all the time.
I don't pass and never will. Given my age and physical size, my attempt at passing would look like something of a train wreck. So I don't try. I put on my skirt and go shopping as I am and just own it. I make no pretence of trying to be anything more than a guy who enjoys female clothing and wants to look as tasteful as he can. Nearly all of the SA'S, even the ones who have never met me but only heard of me from their co-workers, know me by my male name because I've never used anything else. The only things I ask of them is to treat me with respect and to give me honest opinions of the clothes I try on. For my part, I return their respect and honesty. But really, that's exactly the same relationship, no more and no less, that all customers and sales staff should have. Getting your gender right on first guess is a nice bonus, but it's pretty minor compared with the other issues.
I NEVER get "Sirred. Maybe it's because I'm 6'4", built like a brick bomb shelter and have muscles on my teeth. No, in truth though, go with Erin. Life is to short to get your panties in a wedge/knickers in a twist over a pronoun. Remember, you always catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!
I have not been sir'd but the SA did not look to shore .one time a young girl said .You go girl.
I like this ShelbyDawn. My belief is that people get upset for two reasons. Both are about expectations. Either something totally unexpected happens (surprise), or one was expecting something and didn't get it. Remembering this as we go about doesn't seem to happen, but people would be much happier if they didn't expect certain things (in general) from others.
Next on the list is about resentment. You'll be happier if you stop resenting others. It isn't easy, but why let someone live rent free in your head?
"You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder
Its going to happen regardless even if you are all dolled up and really have your girl on that day or an androgynous mix.
Main thing is be nice and let it go SA's do make mistakes but if they do it in a rude manner on purpose then be the better person, you can let them know how rude they have been.
Just a look may do it.
Starting a big commotion over it isn't a good idea.
Last edited by Tracii G; 03-18-2016 at 01:12 PM.
The best comeback is, "I prefer to be addressed as 'Ma'am'". Had I been the SA, I would have apologized and used "Ma'am" in the next sentence.
You can't blame people for addressing you as the gender they perceive you are. We all live our entire lives making assumptions about whether someone is male or female based on how they look, since the vast majority of people do identify with the gender associated with their birth-sex and none of us have the ability to know what anyone feels internally. This is why TSs go to great lengths to alter their physical appearance. They no longer wish to be perceived as male. And wearing a skirt is not sufficient to infer gender-identity, since there are lots of male-identified CDers who also wear skirts.
I made a mistake along similar lines when I was a SA many moons ago. A woman who looked like she was pregnant was shopping for clothes in the store I worked in. I asked when the baby was due. She responded icily that she was not pregnant. I apologized and made no further reference to it.
Reine
I felt like I needed to jump back in here. I think most of us would agree that most of us don't pass. I'm just being honest.
But, I was "all in" as a girl. Black floral skirt (above the knee), with pink flowers, pantihose, black boots, pink top, bra with C cup forms, bracelet, earrings, full face makeup (including foundation, blush, powder, eye shadow, eye liner, mascara, false eye lashes, pastel pink lipstick), sparkling blue nail polish on natural nails much longer than the typical dude, shoulder length wig, crossbody bag. I can't think of anything that I was missing.
I wasn't insulted. I'm not that thin skinned. I was just wondering if there was anything I could say in a light way to let the SA know that trans women would like to be mam'd or at least not sir'd. I wouldn't write a letter or attack the SA. I was just looking for a cute little reminder that the appropriate response would have been mam.
Ladies, don't all go overboard about this. It was really no big deal. I just thought it was an appropriate "teaching moment".
Hi, I'm Steffi and I'm a crossdresser... And I accept and celebrate both sides of me. Or, maybe I'm gender fluid.
In that case then next time, I think it would be best to simply smile and say, "I prefer to be addressed as 'Ma'am' when I am presenting as a woman". You might help this SA address the next person who presents this way properly.
Reine
I would simply say "it's ma'am, not sir, if you please." In fact this is what I used to say when I was misgendered.
My opinion is that it isn't reasonable to blame a trans person for not passing. People ought to treat you with respect even if you can't avail yourself of expensive medical treatments. Some of won't pass even if we get everything possible within the state of the art done.
It is entirely possible to avoid using gendered pronouns in many situations. For example:
Is "may I help you, sir?" really way more polite than "may I help you, please?" The latter one risks offending no one. Another approach is to ask what pronoun someone prefers, although this will really risk offending some people. (Misgendering happens to some cis women too, and some of them also find it very hurtful.)
I only ever got annoyed at being misgendered if the person doing it was making it a point to be rude. "Hello SIR. May I help you SIR? I'd be glad to get that for you, SIR" - basically where they emphasized the pronoun and used it every chance they could, being pretty deliberate about it.
why not? Just because you are 1% doesn't make you less human
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
I recently had a similar issue.
I contacted the company who apologised to me. They also offered a gesture of goodwill which I have refused as I don't think it was required.
I asked that they remind their staff, how hurtful it could be to some members of our community, who cant develop a think skin.
We have to remember its not always about those who are out in the community, but those who may follow in our footsteps.
I never quite understood why someone would want a large quantity of flies, unless they were a bullfrog.
@Krisi:
Sir or Ma'am can be used as a sign of respect and also as a sign of disrespect. It depends on the intent of the user. Losing one's temper, however, is just what the disrespectful person desires; if you're going to cut them to ribbons, do it verbally, do it calmly, and do it well.
ALWAYS plan for the worst, then you can be pleasantly surprised if something else happens!
"The important thing about the bear is not how well she dances, but that she dances at all." - Old Russian Proverb (with a gender change)
Getting Sir'd has to be handled on a case by case analysis because sometimes the general public will slip up. I've had it happen to me a few times and usually I could tell when people meant no ill - will. Other times when it happens I want to see if they have a bigger problem or not.
And folks I am really ashamed to say I have screwed up on this once before. A while back there was a conversation going on in our house about Fallon Fox who is the TS lady that was trying out for the UFC. Anyway Joe Rogan and a bunch of other idiots were on TV saying in interviews so many derogatory remarks about Fallon and how she couldn't, shouldn't be allowed to compete. Blah, blah, blah on and on these guys went with their rants. I was having a conversation in the house at the time and I said the words he, she, before, after, transitioning, it. My wife then said you called her "it" and I stopped with a gaze and said, oh no how did that happen?
It's not less than human, Lori. The SA's tone of voice was not rude? It's simply not knowing. Likely the SA has no clue that men who present as women wish to be addressed as such. It's obvious to all of us but not to a lot of people.
A similar potential to be insulting happens among GGs when deciding on whether to address them as Ma'am or Miss, or in French, Madame or Mademoiselle. Younger women are addressed as Mademoiselle because it is assumed they are single, and older women as Madame because it is assumed they are married. So an older, single woman should really be addressed as Miss, but how would any SA know to do this, since assuming that an older woman is not married is potentially insulting the other way. And so people go with the rule of majority.
There are people who believe that men would be insulted by being called Ma'am (even if they are dressed), because these SAs frame it the only way they know, which is how their fathers, brothers, husbands, etc. would feel if called "Ma'am". Likely this SA, out of sheer lack of exposure took it that it was none of her business how Steffi chooses to present and the SA was not going to pass judgment by addressing a birth male as anything other than Sir.
There is a reason I know that such people exist. My SO and I knew one. This was a very open minded GG (she had no ill thoughts about my SO presenting as a woman), who insisted on using "he" pronouns when we were all together with my SO dressed. I asked her privately one day why she did this and she took it that my SO was fundamentally a male who enjoyed presenting as a woman occasionally and so would be insulted by being called a woman. This was her honest-to-goodness belief and she was surprised when I told her that my SO preferred being addressed as the gender matching the presentation. So she stopped using male pronouns around my SO when my SO was dressed, but she didn't know until she was told.
Last edited by ReineD; 03-20-2016 at 05:36 PM.
Reine
I think that this tendency is particularly strong in males of certain cultures. Women are considered so lowly in social rank in those cultures that the men cannot conceive of a man wanting to stoop that low. He therefore calls anyone with the least masculine characteristics "sir" in hopes of avoiding insult.
We, of course, interpret it diffrently, which is why I tend to be forgiving of minor mistakes.
Erin, what you say maybe makes sense, except I think it goes deeper than misoginy. I can say with all confidence that my adult sons for example do not believe that women are inferior. Most men I know do not believe women are inferior. My sons are feminists in every sense of the word in that they wholly believe that women and men are equal on all levels (I raised my boys right.
Reine
If you look like a male, regardless of the attire you are wearing, you should expect to be called "sir" by sales associates, hotel front desk personnel, restaurant staff, and most other people you come into contact with in service-connected businesses. They are trained to be respectful and most patrons expect to be referred to by some title. If it is important to be called "ma'am", then you should politely let them know what you prefer to be called. Confrontation would probably make you look foolish and accomplish little, unless you have reason to believe the words to be an intentional slight or insult.
Nor does it make you more than special human. Humans make mistakes. It is in our nature. If it wasn't a mistake then it could of been a number of things. One the SA was not use to dealing with a crossdresser. Two the SA could of been think "oh that's a guy dressed as a women, so in the back of their mind the sir slipped out. Whatever the reason, even if the SA was trying to be offensive/bigoted the best we could do is to not come down to their level and just be courteous and maybe it will make it better for the next crossdressers the SA encounters. I don't see and issue if the OP was offended to just say " yes you can help me, but when I am dressed like this could you please refer to me as female." Saying it nicely will go along way instead of a quick comeback to put the SA on their heels and probably become more offensive.
It happens even with genetic women. I have a pretty good female phone voice to the point where 99% of the time they refer to me as a woman without any specific cues on my part, but occasionally I do get called sir.
For most people that is true. For me I think my biological wiring is different. Even presenting as male I actually cringe at being called sir. Once when working at an accounting firm, a female client called up and I answered the phone, and she called me ma'am, and It made me feel real good. Tends to confirm to me that I am trans.My sons are feminists in every sense of the word in that they wholly believe that women and men are equal on all levels (I raised my boys right.
If you have a female wig or hairstyle and wearing a dress with hose and heels, then being called sir is plain rude. There is nothing respectful about it. If you are taught to be respectful then you should attempt to be sensitive to the feelings of others. Being respectful is showing appreciation for your customers and intentionally misgendering is not showing appreciation at all. To intentionally sir someone presenting female is to insult them.
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