Defining gay.

[Tina_gm]

To I am Paula, thanks for clearing it all up lol. If we are going to map this we are gonna have to do it old school because I tried to GPS this on my phone and it promptly overheated and shut down. To Paula Q, the photos you put up made me start singing livin after midnight by Judas Priest. Yes, in the 80's I was a metal head, sorta, and went to a few JP concerts never knowing he was gay. None of my friends seemed to know either lol. Later after he officially came out, he said he was never really in the closet. WTF?? lol. Come to think of it, he never did sing about girls.....

[AllieSF]

It's because we've been taught that for a boy to be feminine or behave in any way like a girl is the worst thing we can be. Men who are gay are assumed by 99% of the straight world to be wanting the female role in life and/or sex. Hence, gay male=feminine=sissy, the worst thing a boy could ever be. And that's the primary reason why we avoid that label. The secondary reason is just as important; for those of us who really don't have any desire to have any type of romantic or sexual relationship with another male, we feel the need to avoid the tag of gay because to women, it's a real turn off oh, about 99.9% of the time.

Does that help?

Sometimes Miss, I understand that that feeling is applicable when younger, or even older when someone is uninformed. However, why is it so hard for some to let the fear of that label to go away as they mature or get more informed about the diversity of life? If one can accept that gays are real, are real and decent human beings being unduly persecuted historically and even today, then why should being mis-labeled (assuming that one is not gay) cause one's defense mechanism to go into overdrive to vehemently deny something that does not need to be denied, just clarified, sometimes with a simple yes or no and a smile? To me, it appears that the defender of their straightness is insecure enough in themselves that they feel that a simple yes or no is not enough. They put too much importance on what others think, especially strangers. I am not necessarily saying this directly to you but rather to everyone who feels this way. In my opinion, someone who is fairly secure in themselves, i.e. who and what they are and are not, then there is no real need to worry about being mis-labeled, unless it may negatively impact ones ability to work (make money) and grow (get promoted and make even more money) within a company or organization. Otherwise, it seems totally unnecessary and a waste of valuable brain time, meaning that there are other things that we should worry and get upset about besides this. I hope what I said makes sense?

PS: I think that the percentages used are way, way over stated. Yes, some may look down on someone else being gay, but in todays world that is becoming less and less of an issue.

[Tina_gm]

On a more serious note. Some of what Sometimes Miss is saying has some real truth behind it. I am and have always been a people watcher/observer. I just can't help myself as I find people in general fascinating, regardless of gender, or whatever type of person they are. Not that all my observations are 100% correct, but- I am willing to put it out there that I can grasp things better than a lot. It comes from years and years of practice. Anyway- when it comes to women who talk about their husbands/bf's, the most common thing they talk or brag about is their partners masculinity. Yes yes, not ALL women, but it from my experience, it is the most common thing they talk up their guy about. His tough manly job, how he can do this or that physically.... Some women do appreciate the guys who are not so manly, like their softer qualities and all. They are a minority, and I think too, often are not as likely to brag about their man's sensitive nature even if they do appreciate it more so than the women who are more likely attracted to the more masculine type of guy.

I know I am oversimplifying this quite a bit, but, when it all gets broken down, women are generally not attracted to feminine men, and are not likely to talk much about their partner's softer side even if they appreciate it.

[sometimes_miss]

PS: I think that the percentages used are way, way over stated. Yes, some may look down on someone else being gay, but in todays world that is becoming less and less of an issue.

It's easy for us to forget what the rest of the world is like. We spend so much time discussing this, that it becomes normal to us. But to the rest of the world, we're definitely NOT normal. It's true that most will tolerate us. But the line between tolerance and liking it are still very far apart. Yes, there are some men who are secure in themselves, but if you ask any of them if they've ever wanted to have sex with another guy in mixed company or with their female SO present, I can bet you that very close to that 99.9% will answer no, absolutely not, no way, ever. Or something to that effect.

Same with what I wrote about women. Despite the happy few here that have tolerant SO's, most, given the choice, would prefer that their hubby/boyfriend wasn't a crossdresser, and also prefer that he remain 'all man' while having sex. The number of women who find men dressed in women's clothing sexually attractive is very, very few.

And again, if you truly believe otherwise, you have a potential gold mine at your fingertips. Just start a dating service matching up all those women who find crossdressers sexually attractive, with crossdressers. I'm sure most of us would gladly pay you a handsome fee to meet all those single women who find it a turn on.

[AllieSF]

"And again, if you truly believe otherwise, you have a potential gold mine at your fingertips. Just start a dating service matching up all those women who find crossdressers sexually attractive, with crossdressers. I'm sure most of us would gladly pay you a handsome fee to meet all those single women who find it a turn on. "

I agree with everything you just said and in no way meant that people accept us. I agree that tolerance and acceptance may be somewhat similar, but the differences are significant. I wish I could find that gold mine idea and then have the courage to take the risk to make it all happen. Alas, I do not think that will happen with me.

My point is that we need to think less of what other people think of us and live our lives as we, not they, think is best. Old habits, fears and perceptions are hard to get rid of. But, and this is a BIG but, we need to do that (live for ourselves) to help other people get used to and maybe even one day celebrate the diversity of life and personalities that are all around us, no matter where we live.

[Tina_gm]

Sometimes Miss, you are right that we can get so caught up with OUR normal that we can forget what is normal for the majority. How many times have their been posts that will be like, why do people think we are gay????? That is the perception for most because that is all what they have seen and heard. My wife was no different. At the time when I told her about me CDing, as far as she knew, CDers were effeminate gay men. Most of what the has ever been shown in the media in regards to CDing would be drag queens and almost all of them are openly gay. Those who are or have transitioned generally are attracted to the sex that would have made them gay with their birth sex. More are than are not anyway, which is because they are not gay, but straight in regards to their gender identity. Law of averages basically take over here.

Straight women are simply going to be attracted to masculinity, because that is how heterosexuality basically works. We of course bend all of the rules, and for us, our "world" is so much broader in terms of gender and sexuality. Much like I am Paula's original descriptions, she goes from straight to gay to straight, to bi, then straight and gay again. The normal for most is a world where gender and sexuality is clearly defined. Black and white. No shades of anything, you either are or are not- with everything.

[ReineD]

But, my definition of gay is a male attracted to male parts. Whether or not a person defines themselves as male is up to each individual.

It's like quantum mechanics. The same laws that govern the observable universe do not apply to sub atomic particles. We can't use the same terms for cisgenders AND the T community, because unlike cisgenders whose understanding it is that the terms describe sexual characteristics, the T community refer to their gender identities which often do not match their sexual characteristics.

I don't know why people whose gender identities don't match their sexual characteristics want to debate terms like straight, gay, or lesbian. If they want to describe themselves they should simply state how they identify and who they're attracted to (with an understanding they are describing gender identity and not sexual characteristics). It's only 8 more words than simply saying "straight", "gay" or "lesbian". This takes no more than 3 seconds. It's simpler and more understandable than coming up with (and having everyone else adopt), brand new single-word terminology that describe all three: the gender identity, the current state of visible sexual characteristics, and the sexual preferences of someone to whom this applies.

Once a person has transitioned and is totally absorbed into society as their target gender, there is no confusion when they use the same terms as cisgenders because effectively, they are seen as cis by everyone, whether they've had SRS or not.

[flatlander_48]

Anyways, in RE the OP. I know this has happened before, and in a straight family. They wrote a song about it. Here's the diagram

L:

So that's what they do in Colorado!?!? I thought there were laws against that...

Anyway, for the original question, people have to remember that being gay goes way beyond who you sleep with. I also involves who you have emotional relationships with, who you look to for support, how you align yourself politically, etc.

By the late 90's it finally came to me that I was bisexual. This was towards the end of my first marriage. Maybe 5 years prior to that, I had admitted to myself that I was gay. To this day, my orientation continues to be bisexual. My guess is maybe 50/50 to 60/40 female. When I finally got around to demonstrating this to myself, it seemed like a perfectly natural place for me. When I started to dress, that also felt perfectly natural. What that says to me is that I do have a particular feminine component to my being; not enough to rate thinking about transition, but a fixture nonetheless.

Ging back to when I sorted my sexuality and in my recent times, my gender identity, I have not noticed any perceptible shift. For what I can see, it feels fairly constant so I'm not expecting any real changes. But as they say, Never Say Never...

DeeAnn

[Georgette_USA]

Once a person has transitioned and is totally absorbed into society as their target gender, there is no confusion when they use the same terms as cisgenders because effectively, they are seen as cis by everyone, whether they've had SRS or not.

Reine, I really like your no nonsense thinking on all this.
Oh if it were that simple. I have been rebuked from people here and elsewhere because I am not a GG(Genetic Girl) or RG(Real Girl) or cis(which I am not by definition), or may not be a TS. The last one is funny, why would any one identify as a 65 year old fat Post-Op TS. To many we are not real women, I guess we are fake women, even in TG friendly websites. How many here have had genetic testing to affirm a GG status. I have chatted with and met some inter-sexed people, including an XY woman. My best compliment comes from a women I chat with who likes to use Regular Woman for herself and accepts me very much as same. She very much likes men who dress, and will CD as a male some. I respond to many of the younger that I have been physically a woman longer, 38.5 years, than they have been alive.

Allie
There are websites that have TG/CDs and some women. They always want a GG or another CD. At this time in my life I would welcome a TG/CD as an intimate friend and more. I never had much luck being romantic with non-trans str8 men, most men just want a woman for their own sexual pleasures.

Gendermutt
Yes we tend to warp our world around us. Have a FtM friend that said he always thought he was a Lesbian. Now he has had top surgery and taking T. So I kid him, guess that makes him str8 now that he still prefers female partners.

To Lorileah and others. If you want to get totally confused check out a movie called "predestination". Plenty of gender/sex confusion, and turns the whole idea of that song on its head, as it was playing in parts of the movie. Some time travel involved to make it happen. My brother and I argued the finer points of time travel paradoxes and the whole gender/sex implications.

I guess I seem bitter now at times, as I have had 40 years of all this and it seems like we still want to argue all this. We just keep inventing more terms to describe all of this.

[flatlander_48]

We just keep inventing more terms to describe all of this.

I think we have to. Either that or we modify existing definitions. I believe as time goes on, we know more about sexuality and gender identity. As we add layers to a given topic, other subtleties and variations come to light. We can't ignore them, so we have add them to what we know in a way that makes sense and is cohesive.

DeeAnn

[Georgette_USA]

I think we have to. Either that or we modify existing definitions.
DeeAnn

When I was younger we had CD/TV - TS - Drag Queens/Drag Kings. Used Gay/Lesbian/BI for sexual wants. No usage of TG back then.

After SRS my partner and I left all that world behind.

I have come to all these new terms fairly recently.
Since her death I have re-entered this world. Some of these are still in use but are now under the general term of TG, or so I was told and reminded by some. Some have argued on here they are just CDs but not TG. Have some friends who say they are bi-gender and not TG or CD. Now have Gender-queer/Gender-fluid/Binary/Non-Binary.

Not sure if Drag are considered TG. Many who use TG imply that is same as TS. Know some sites that use, HPW/CD/TV/TG/T-Girl/Gurl/TS/Pre-/Post-/Non-, and most can't agree on usage. And will imply a hierarchy to them.

And some have problems with the on-line sex worker TS, and other terms for them. And the general Trans/Tranny/Trannie.

We have Gay/Lesbian/BI/pan-sexual/poly-sexual/omni-sexual/am-bisexual/BI-curious/Hetroflexible and homoflexible.

I am sure we can add many others to all this.

So these subtleties and variations make sense and are cohesive. No wonder the general cis world is confused.

[ReineD]

Reine, I really like your no nonsense thinking on all this.
Oh if it were that simple. I have been rebuked from people here and elsewhere because I am not a GG(Genetic Girl) or RG(Real Girl) or cis(which I am not by definition), or may not be a TS. The last one is funny, why would any one identify as a 65 year old fat Post-Op TS. To many we are not real women, I guess we are fake women, even in TG friendly websites.

I'm sorry that you are seen this way.

I don't mean to turn this into a discussion of whether someone passes or not. We haven't met, I don't know how old you were when you transitioned and I don't know how long you've been living your life as a woman. But my point is that if a transitioned transwoman works as a woman, lives as a woman, is known by neighbors and the people she interacts with on a daily basis as a woman, in fact if most people she knows have only known her as a woman and then she tells one of these people that she is straight, then likely the person she tells this to will assume that she is into men. And if she says she is lesbian then people will take it she is into women. If she is living as a woman and most people she knows have not known her as a man, they likely don't spend time wondering whether she has had SRS. In other words, they think of her primarily as a woman.

... which is not the case for a transwoman who is not yet transitioned or who is very newly transitioned and whom most people still know or think of as a man, if they still subconsciously think of this transwoman as having male sexual characteristics. Words like straight or lesbian in this case might be confusing for the simple reason that people assign a sexual characteristic definition to those words. So someone like this might better say, "I'm a woman (or I identify as a woman) and I'm attracted to (... pick one), if she wants to define her sexuality to someone. I'm afraid that in this case, single-word descriptions like "straight" and "lesbian" will not be effective when speaking to people who are not familiar with the concept that gender identity and sexual characteristics can be separate.

And CDers? Same thing. If they want to tell someone they are attracted to women and they say they are lesbian, most people outside this community will not know what they are talking about.

[PattyT]

This thread has left my head spinning. There are so many variables as to orientation towards the opposite sex that we seem to run out of terms and labels.
I like to look at this topic from the CD point of view.
It seems that only a miniscule percentage of the males on this list can be classified as "gay" in the sense held by the muggle world. The muggle world seems have a simplified view of the concept of "gay". Men are either straight or gay. Any male who exhibits any romatic interest in other males anything feminine, such as crossdressing is gay or is out in "drag", is a "drag queen". I cannot remember hearing the term "gay" when I was young. Back then, men who had any romantic interest in males or exhibited any female characteristsics were "homos" or "queers." A male in female attire was a "transvestie" and probably "queer" or "homo". In spite of the detailed discussion here, I wonder if the rest of the folk around might still have this oversimplified view. It's hard to find fault with them as they don't really know that other types of people, such as the likes of us even exist.
We are faced with the virtually impossible task of educating the muggle world that the overwhelming majority of us are CDs, and no other term applies.

[flatlander_48]

So these subtleties and variations make sense and are cohesive. No wonder the general cis world is confused.

G:

Understood. There is great potential for confusion. To me, a 2 tiered approach seems best. By that I mean separating the high level, macro kinds of information from the detailed information. The high level stuff being what everyone gets at first pass. The detailed stuff is inside of the community or passed externally as people begin to grasp the high level stuff. Passing the detailed information externally as a first shot will very likely result glazed eyeballs, WTF reactions and be an excuse for people to go no further.

I cannot remember hearing the term "gay" when I was young.

This doesn't surprise me. Historically and from personal experience, in Asian countries people are generally very private about their lives beyond what is seen superficially. This is based on living in Taiwan for 6 years and working with people from Japan, Korea, China, Viet Nam, Malaysia, Thailand, India and the Phillipines. Also, there isn't a long history with public demonstrations as the first Pride Celebration in Japan was in '94. The first one in Taiwan was November '03, a couple of months before I arrived.

DeeAnn

[Georgette_USA]

Reine
I am a big girl and have developed a very thick skin so some of this just rolls off my back.

I have some of this in my profile.
Lived full time as a woman since early 1977, SRS in SEP 77 at age 26. Hence the physical as 38.5 years.

Most of the remarks are on 4 TG friendly websites, where I identify as a woman with a Post-Op TS background. The fact that these are TG friendly and supposed to be more understanding is what gets me upset at times. I am also on a Lesbian site and identify only as a woman, I have never had any issue and have many on-line "friends". Also on just a general nudes site and identify as a woman, never had any issues there.

In my everyday life, my large extended family knows my background. I am also active with 3 local TG support groups and 1 large mixed social group. As far as I can tell I have been fully accepted as a woman by men and women.

To some people and some family I identify as primarily sexually interested in woman, but am open to most all based on the other people.

[ReineD]

Georgette, you transitioned almost 40 years ago. To the people you've met in person and repeatedly interacted with over the years (outside of TG groups and TG websites) and to whom you didn't get into the details of your past, if you had told them you were straight, would they not have assumed that you were interested in men? I'm assuming they would have because they would know you as a woman. But, if everyone you've met in these last 4 decades has immediately known you were born male, then I'm sorry. I don't think this is the experience of most long-term transitioners?

This isn't a question related to your biography or your sexual preferences, but more about the terms "straight", "lesbian", and "gay" as they are understood by the bulk of the population (the people not exposed to this community) when they relate these terms to people whom gender dysphoria doesn't come into play.

If you have been read as a male all your life (this would be unfortunate), then I agree, using words like straight, lesbian, and gay may not convey to people who are not a part of this community what you would want to convey. And so if a conversation developed in which you would have wanted to specify your sexuality and sexual preference, saying "I'm a woman and I'm attracted to women", would be more effective than "I'm a lesbian" (if people do read you as a male).

[Georgette_USA]

Reine
That is why I hate the identifiers of "Gay Lesbian Straight". That is why I say I prefer sex with women or BI as most can understand that.

When talking with people I never say "I am a woman". As far as I can tell, people assume that I am a woman as NO ONE has ever asked or said anything. For most of my 40 years had little to NO contact with the TG community. Everyone only knows me as Georgette a large woman. As I said it is some of the people on the TG sites that have problems.

I do get confused with others. I have a cis female friend with a TG/CD partner, and she describes their sex life as Lesbians. Not really sure how that works, as I am used to the usual FtF lesbians relations.